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The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 17th, 2011, 5:04 pm
by SempiternalHarbinger
The title of this thread is the name of a talk by Verlan H. Anderson. Anything I post here does not exempt me in any way. I am making this post in response to the thread; Section 124, what really happened? I decided to start a new thread because i didn't want to high jack it. I have never read any works of Denver Snuffer nor do I plan to. But a couple things in that thread caught my attention and would like to comment. I could be wrong, if so please help me understand where I am wrong. Particularly two things which are... Are the members of the church referred to gentiles in the Book of Mormon? And second, do the scriptures and have the prophets warned us of a latter-day apostasy? Warning; The scriptures and words of the prophets I will quote are not feel good scriptures but are warnings to members of the church of the Lamb of God. There are many who have either ignored and taken lightly the prophets and scriptures warnings (me included) or have even wanted to cast stones at those who have brought forth the Lords message.

Two weeks ago I had a conversation with one of my uncles who thought it was blasphemy that I would even suggest that there "could" be an apostasy in these latter days. Not with the prophet but members. He wanted to hear no part of my argument and instead of listening, he gave me a stern warning. He thought I was on a path of apostasy for even suggesting it. My testimony of today's prophet, President Thomas S Monson is as strong as my testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I have no doubts. As I get older the more I realize the importance to be on my toes, and be on high alert because Satan is going about deceiving the world and I want to be on the right side, the Lords side. Not the wrong side believing I am on the right side. I also have come to understand the importance of not only knowing and understanding the Lords plan but also Satan's plan.


Does not history repeat itself?? Every civilization has always fallen into apostasy save one. The City of Enoch. Are we the exception? If history does indeed repeat itself, Than history warns us that apostasy must be expected in theses latter days. Maybe I am reading and interpreting the scriptures and the words of the prophets wrong . But as far as I am concerned, we have been warned how to avoid deception and apostasy and what is required to be admitted into the Lord feast..

Have not the prophets predicted that in these last days that Satan's organization would cover the entire globe? Have dominion over among ALL nations,kindreds, tounges, and people? Entice everyone to belong to it except that few who belong to "the church of the Lamb of God? Overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries? To make war against the saints and slay them? and finally be the cause of the destruction of all nations? Don't the scriptures testify of these things? Yes they do! Why then the almost total lack of interest in those scriptures which testify of it? Is there any problem facing mankind of greater importance? Obviously, in this day “when the children of men shall esteem [the words of the Lord] as naught,” (Moses 1:4 1) the overwhelming majority of the people pay no attention to these scriptures because they don’t believe them.

Although the truth concerning these things been plainly manifest unto men, they receive not the light:

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which
was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the
children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers. (D&C 93:3 1, 39)

It is the “creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies,” which are riveted upon the hearts of
the children which constitute “the very mainspring of all corruption.” (D&C 123:7)

Nephi predicted that such a state of unbelief would exist among the people of Zion, and because of this, they would fall into Satan's clutches.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them:
I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his
awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! ( 2 Nephi:28:22,24,25)

All is not well in Zion. The same things that destroyed these great civilizations are the very thing that is destroying us today. Unfortunately, we have become a people who want our leaders to preach to us " the basics." And the majority of the time when the truth is told, people either get angry or ignore them. Nephi had something to say about this.

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold,
he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation
trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the
word of God, for we have enough! ( 2 Nephi 28:27-29)

Will there not be a separation of the wheat from the tares? Are there members of the church who are among the tares?

President Joseph Fielding Smith has assured us that there will be “tares” among the Church members. Said he:

There are so many influences at work to divide us asunder, right among the members of the
Church, and there is going to come, one of these days in the near future, a separation of the
wheat from the tares, and we are either wheat or fares. We are going to be on one side or the
other. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.111, p. 16)

Modern revelation also states that these tares are indeed members of Satan’s great and abominable church:

That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the
wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who
sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tarès of the
earth;.(D&C 88:94)

The parable of the “virgins” is perhaps even more explicit in warning Church members that Satan will ensnare many. We may assume that the group to which Christ referred in this parable are all “good Christians.” All of them believe in, and are looking anxiously forward to, the second coming. Each considers herself equally worthy to enter into the marriage with the bridegroom, and is waiting up even until midnight watching for the Master. Outwardly, they are indistinguishable one from another, however, at the last moment, fully one half of this “faithful” assemblage will be rejected by the Savior with these words:

Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (Matt. 25:12)

Very few seem to give the problem much thought even though the scriptures are filled with warnings. Members think as long as I read my scriptures and say my prayers I will be fine and will not and cannot be deceived. Most think these scriptures refer to other religious groups who are not LDS. But the prophets of old were mainly taking to those of our church. ((10 virgins = membership of Christ church for all were invited to the wedding feast and all knew what was required to be admitted when the Bridegroom came. But only half were ready when he came.)) "Being unaware of the danger, people take no measures to defend themselves against it and fall easy victims to Satan’s most formidable weapon." John the Revelator says Satan “ will deceive the whole world” (rev.12:9) for satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations” (D&C 52;14)“Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.” (D&C 112:23) Even honorable men have reason to fear being misled for among those who inhabit the terrestrial kingdom are those who…“are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.”(D&C76:75)

Verlan H Andersen says this;

"If it be true that only one half of that small group designated by the Lord as “virgins” will
avoid being deceived into joining the devil’s church, deception constitutes one of the gravest risks
faced in this life. However, very few seem to give the problem much thought even though the
scriptures are filled with warnings against it. Of course, many never read those warnings, but those
who do tend to apply them to others. Consequently, indifference to the problem is quite general.
Being unaware of the danger, people take no measures to defend themselves against it, and thus
fall easy victims to one of Satan’s most formidable weapons."
(Verlan H Andersen; Great and Abominable Church of the Devil)

Another warning that Christ will reject “many” of those who have labored in his Church and regard themselves as worthy for the kingdom is contained in the Sermon on the Mount. Christ taught:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he
that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name
done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from
me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:21-23)

The late President of the Church, John Taylor, commented on this scripture as follows:

We are told that, many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy
name and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ Yet to
all such will he say, ‘Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’ You say that means the outsiders?
No, it does not. Do they do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus? No. This means you
Latter-day Saints, who heal the sick, cast out devils and do many wonderful things in the name
of Jesus…Hear it, ye Latter-day Saints! Hear it, ye Seventies and ye High Priests!…
(D&C Commentary, pp. 462, 463)

Are we not under condemnation because we are not studying and comprehending that which has already been given us? President Ezra Taft Benson urged the members of the church when President, that members not only read the Book of Mormon but to live its principles so that the people could receive a "Blessing Hitherto Unknown" before the scourge and judgment would fall on this church according to prophecy.

“I bless you with increased understanding of the Book of Mormon. I promise you that. … if we will daily sup from its pages and abide by its precepts, God will pour out upon each child of Zion and the Church a blessing hitherto unknown.” Ezra Taft Benson
(Ensign, May 1986, page 78.)

Whats interesting is.....no other prophets have since, as far as I remember or know of has called the LDS to receive this Blessing nor suggested that this condemnation has been lifted.

One of my all time favorite talks is President Spencer W. Kimball powerful talks "The False Gods We Worship," Now this talk is not an uplifting one, but a warning. And it so happened to irritate and offend the entire audience. He even said that we, as a church, were an "idolatrous people--a condition repugnant to the Lord." The only difference between our current church and previous ones, is that our church doesn't stone the prophets for delivering "negative" messages--we just ignore them. (including me)

Dang, I have to run. A few more things. Gentiles.. Shadow explained that the gentiles are not members of the church. He could be right. But here is an awesome talk by Elder Verlan H. Andersen which says different and has me somewhat confused. Also I have found many talks by the prophets when quoting Ether chapter 8 and other scriptures (introduction of book of mormon; "Come by way of gentile") in the book of Mormon when gentiles is referred to, the prophets always say "US" when refering to gentiles. It seems to me that in fact we are gentiles. Here is a few;

Boyd K Paker;

"We live in a time of war, that spiritual war that will never end. Moroni warned us that the secret combinations begun by Gadianton

are had among all people. . . .

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [and the term gentile in that place in the Book of Mormon refers to us in our generation], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you. . .

Here is another one from Boyd K Packer from the talk, "On the Shoulders of Giants.";

When Moroni was translating the twenty-four gold plates, he interrupted his narrative to
speak directly to us in our day. He told of the Gadiantons and their bands (in our day we would call them gangs):

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [that is us],(who is us??) it is wisdom in God that these things should
be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these
murderous combinations shall get above you, . . .

There is many more but I have to run. I am a little confused because I have noticed a few different definitions which contradict each other. I have found that gentile does include members of the church and have found ample evidence it is not, and are in fact those who are not members. Here is the talk by Verlan H. Andersen which suggest when gentiles is referred to in the Book of Mormon it is referring to members of the church. Great talk nonetheless. I was wondering if Verlan has it wrong or right. Thoughts appreciated. Especially Shadow, because he has made a very compelling case for one side and Verlan makes a compelling argument for the other.. Thanks.

Cheers!

Also Isaiah 1 talks about apostasy in the latter days. Here is chapter 1 of the Isaiah institute.

http://www.isaiahexplained.com/isaiah_ch_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1. The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz which he beheld
concerning Judea and Jerusalem during the reigns of Uzziah,
Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah:

2. Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
The Lorda has spoken:
I have reared sons, brought them up,
but they have revolted against me.


3. The ox knows its owner,
the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;
my people are insensible.


4. Alas, a nation astray,
a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,
perverse children:
they have forsaken the Lord,
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel,
they have lapsed into apostasy.


5. Why be smitten further
by adding to your waywardness?
The whole head is sick,
the whole heart diseased.

6. From the soles of the feet even to the head
there is nothing sound,
only wounds and bruises and festering sores;
they have not been pressed out or bound up,
nor soothed with ointment.

7. Your land is ruined,
your cities burned with fire;
your native soil is devoured by aliens in your presence,
laid waste at its takeover by foreigners.


8. The Daughter of Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
a hut in a melon field,
a city under siege.

9. Had not the Lord of Hosts left us a few survivors,
we should have been as Sodom,
or become like Gomorrah.

10. Hear the word of the Lord,
O leaders of Sodom;
give heed to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!

11. For what purpose are your abundant
sacrifices to me? says the Lord.
I have had my fill of offerings of rams
and fat of fatted beasts;
the blood of bulls and sheep and he-goats
I do not want.

12. When you come to see me,
who requires you to trample my courts so?

13. Bring no more worthless offerings;
they are as a loathsome incense to me.
As for convening meetings at the New Month
and on the Sabbath,
wickedness with the solemn gathering
I cannot approve.

14. Your monthly and regular meetings
my soul detests.
They have become a burden on me;
I am weary of putting up with them.


15. When you spread forth your hands,
I will conceal my eyes from you;
though you pray at length, I will not hear—
your hands are filled with blood.

16. Wash yourselves clean:
remove your wicked deeds
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil.


17. Learn to do good: demand justice,
stand up for the oppressed;
plead the cause of the fatherless,
appeal on behalf of the widow.


18. Come now, let us put it to the test,
says the Lord:
though your sins are as scarlet,
they can be made white as snow;
though they have reddened as crimson,
they may become white as wool.

19. If you are willing and obey,
you shall eat the good of the land.


20. But if you are unwilling and disobey,
you shall be eaten by the sword.
By his mouth the Lord has spoken it.


21. How the faithful city
has become a harlot!

She was filled with justice;
righteousness made its abode in her,
but now murderers.


22. Your silver has become dross,
your wine diluted with water.

23. Your rulers are renegades,
accomplices of robbers:
with one accord they love bribes
and run after rewards;
Yep, Sounds like our current conditions. Robbers, corrupt judges, ect...
they do not dispense justice to the fatherless,
nor does the widow’s case come before them.

24. Therefore the Lord, the Lord of Hosts,
the Valiant One of Israel, declares,
Woe to them! I will relieve me
of my adversaries,
avenge me of my enemies.

25. I will restore my hand over you
and smelt away your dross as in a crucible,b
and remove all your alloy.

26. I will restore your judges as at the first,
and your counselors as in the beginning.
After this you shall be called
the City of Righteousness, a faithful city.


27. For Zion shall be ransomed by justice,
those of her who repent by righteousness.


28. But criminals and sinners
shall be altogether shattered
when those who forsake the Lord are annihilated.

29. And you will be ashamed of the oaks you cherished
and blush for the parks you were fond of;

30. you shall become like an oak whose leaves wither,
and as a garden that has no water.

31. The mighty shall be as refuse,
their works a spark;
both shall burn up alike,
and there shall be none to extinguish.



THE APOSTASY OF THE LATTER DAYS; By Verlan H. Andersen

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED;

Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, no people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established his church among a group who have lived his commandments for a few years and then fallen away thus bringing upon themselves his judgments. This cycle of human folly which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain and the only question about it is how long it will take.

Christ, who as governor of the world, has the painful duty of punishing transgression, has spoken of the infidelity of the House of Israel and the frequency with which they have rejected him. Just before he made his appearance to those righteous Nephites who survived the terrible disaster inflicted upon their nation, he uttered these words of anguish:

"O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you. And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; ... how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not." (3 Nephi 10:4-5)

To the Jews the Lord said:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how oft would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37)

The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore his gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred because the only thing which will cause the destruction of his Church is the wickedness of its members. As the angel told Alma who had been trying to destroy the Lord's work among the Nephites:

"Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord has said: "This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people." (Messiah 27:13)

The prophet, Mormon, whose labor as a historian gave him the opportunity to observe the frequency of the righteousness - wickedness - punishment cycle, spoke of it as though it were a law of life which operates as a certain consequence of a universal human weakness. His analysis of apostasy and its causes should interest us deeply:

"And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him. Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold and silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies ... yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, .. and this because of their ease and exceedingly great prosperity. And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him. O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil and devilish and how quick to do iniquity and how slow to do good, are the children of men..." (Helaman. 12:1-4)


ARE THE CONDITIONS WHICH ORDINARILY ACCOMPANY APOSTASY PRESENT TO DAY?


Do the words of Mormon quoted above have application today? If "ease" and "exceedingly great prosperity" are certain to cause people to "forget the Lord their God," then the Church is in deep trouble because seldom, if ever, has any group been as prosperous as it is today. Its beginnings were humble enough. Starting in 1830 with an initial membership of six, the Church was persecuted, its property destroyed and confiscated, its leaders slain, and the people finally driven into a forbidding wilderness before they could find a measure of peace. But all that has now changed. After 140 years of growth, membership numbers in the millions, persecution has long vanished, and instead of ostracism, members are, for the most part accepted and respected.

These conditions in prior dispensations have been sure signs of weakened faith. To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the Church are again "falling away" would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history. Especially is this true in light of the fact that the cultural, political, and educational life of Church members has become so deeply and thoroughly involved with that of non-members that they are being overwhelmingly influenced by the "ways of the world." Through newspapers and magazines, motion pictures and television, schools and lecture halls, and a thoroughly integrated economic system, Church members come into close and continuous contact with those not of their faith.

Some may assume that a "Gentile apostasy" in the latter days cannot occur because Christ's Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from the gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example, we noted in the Lord's prophecy that only one-half of the small group he calls "virgins" will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem.


PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS


The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the "Gentiles" in the latter days. While the members of Christ's Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite Scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth "by way of the Gentiles:"

"Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also the Lamanites--Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also unto the Jew and Gentile...to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile--...

(See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name "Gentile" to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2-4) If Church members will bear in mind that the term "Gentile" when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing. Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ"s Church. Consider for example the following statement which is found among Nephi"s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

"They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men."

(2 Nephi 28:14)

Anyone who considers himself a "humble follower of Christ" is here warned that he will err "in many instances" because he is "taught by the precepts of men."Moroni was similarly explicit in predicting false teachings among the Saints. Reflect upon the unmistakable implication of this point-blank indictment of members of the "holy church of God:"

"O ye pollution, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?"

(Mormon 8:38)

Since there is only one "holy church of God" on earth, and since it is being polluted, the blame therefore appears to rest upon teachers and hypocrites within that church.

Christ leveled his own charges of iniquity among members of his church in the last days in these words:

"At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel...and shall be filled with all manner of lying, and of deceit, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations..."

(3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of the Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles will sin against his gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, he refers to them as the "Salt of the earth:"

"But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, oh house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel."

(3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ used the term "the salt of the earth" he means his covenant people as the following passage explains:

"When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men; They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if the salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men."

(D&C 101:39-40)

There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn to pieces.

(3 Nephi 20:16; 21:12-14)

Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

"And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways;... Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you--lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver."

(Mormon 5:22-24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

"And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God--that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fullness come, that ye may not bring down the fullness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done."

(Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also. In the clearest of language they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that we if we "continue" in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors.

That such a destruction will occur, and that it will consume everyone who fails to repent is indicated in the following words of Nephi:

"And now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you; for I, Nephi, would not suffer that ye should suppose that ye are more righteous than the Gentiles shall be. For behold, except ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall all likewise perish; and because of the words which have been spoken ye need not suppose that the Gentiles are utterly destroyed. For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord."

(2 Nephi 30:1-2)

So sweeping had been Nephi's description of Gentile wickedness and destruction that in the above passage he considered it necessary to warn his readers against assuming that the "Gentiles are utterly destroyed." As many as will turn from their wicked ways may be spared and numbered with the remnant.


THE FAILURE OF PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE THE SIGNS OF APOSTASY


In the great majority of cases where apostasy has occurred, it appears that people become wicked while believing themselves righteous. This happened time and again to the Children of Israel and the Nephites, and was plainly evident in the case of the Jews at the time of Christ. There are recorded exceptions to this rule. For example, when the Nephites apostatized immediately prior to Christ"s visit, we are told:

"Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did willingly rebel against God."

(3 Nephi 6:18)

But the typical situation is described thus by Mormon as he commented on the frequency and rapidity with which a people who have been blessed forsake their Lord:

"...they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One--yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity."

(Helaman 12:2)

Prophecies regarding the Gentile apostasy of the latter days indicate that it will be the typical one wherein Church members will be led away by false beliefs into evil practices. Nephi had much to say regarding the event. Among other things he predicted that:

(1) "Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted...."

(Nephi 28:12)

(2) "The humble followers of Christ" will err in many instances because of being taught by the precepts of men. "

(2 Nephi 28:14)

(3) Some will be lulled away "into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; Zion prospereth, all is well--and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell."

(2 Nephi 28:21)

(4) Others will be deceived into believing that there is no devil and no hell." (2 Nephi 28:22)(5) There will be many who will say:

"Eat, drink and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines..."

(Nephi 28:8-9)


THE VERY MAINSPRING OF ALL CORRUPTION


Since the scripture states that the Gentile apostasy will be accompanied by false beliefs, as has been the case in times past, it should be of profit and interest to attempt to discover wherein we are being misled today.

It will be recalled from our discussion in "THE UNIVERSAL PROBLEM OF DECEPTION" that one of the most difficult problems we face in this life is that of distinguishing between right and wrong. We saw there that the purpose of the fall was that men might become "as Gods knowing good and evil," (Moses 4:11-28) and that Satan's great purpose here is to deceive mankind. (Moses 4:4) Having done this he can induce honorable men to do evil because they believe it to be good, and induce them to refrain from doing good because they believe it to be evil.

Because of the very pronounced tendency of people to accept as proper beliefs and practices of those amongst whom they are reared, the difficulty of distinguishing good from evil is greatly magnified for those who live in the midst of wickedness. The scriptures confirm this by pointing out that "THE VERY MAINSPRING OF CORRUPTION" is "the influence of that spirit which hath so strongly riveted the creeds of the fathers, who have inherited lies, upon the hearts of the children." (D&C 123:7) see also (D&C 93:39) Only those who have the faith and independence of character to seek the words of God in its purity from the scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Ghost, can expect to escape the influence of inherited lies.

People who regard themselves as members of the only true Church have the fatal tendency to consider themselves immune from the disease of deception. Knowing that they belong to the Lord's Church and have his scriptures and his prophets to guide them, they blindly assume that this adequately protects them against false beliefs. All history teaches the folly of such an assumption, and the scriptures specifically deny its validity. In fact it is those who have the truth "plainly manifest unto them," who have the most to fear as the following scriptures state:

"Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light."

(D&C 83:31); see also (2 Nephi 32:7)

"For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation."

(D&C 82:3; see also 2 Nephi 9:27)

It is also true that people who conform to the outward ordinances, ceremonies and practices of Christ's Church tend to assume that such activities assure them a place in his kingdom. This assumption, according to the scriptures, is likewise false. For example the parable of the Ten Virgins teaches that only one half of that select group of Christians who wait expectantly for the Lord's second coming and consider themselves acceptable to him, will be admitted to the marriage. Another scripture assures us that "many" who have prophesied in the Lord's name, cast out devils in his name, and in his name "done many wonderful works," will be excluded because of their "iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23) People of this type--the foolish virgins who have been deceived, (D&C 45:57) and the "many" who have worked iniquity right while doing many wonderful works in the name of the Lord---should be interested in how they are being deceived and what they are doing which will keep them out of the kingdom. Let us turn to modern revelation for a possible explanation.


THE GREATEST REVELATION THAT GOD HAS EVER GIVEN TO MAN!


That section of the D&C which President Mckay has called "The greatest revelation that God has ever given to man," (B.Y.U. Speeches of the year, Alvin R. Dyer, 3/20/63) contains an explanation of why only a "few" of the "many" who are called by the Lord will enter the highest degree of glory. This scripture (D&C 121) affirms the conclusion drawn above that nearly everyone will be deceived. But it goes on to describe those weaknesses men have which makes this massive deception possible. There are certain basic flaws found in the character of "almost all men" which prevent all but a "few" of the "many" who are given the Priesthood in this life, from retaining it in the hereafter. Let us quote the verses of this section which reveals this sobering fact:

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson---

"That the rights of the Priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon principles of righteousness.

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."

"Hence many are called, but few are chosen."

(D&C 121:34-36, 39-40)

From these verses we learn that most all men set their hearts so much on riches and honor that they are blinded to those basic rules governing the exercise of power. We also learn that almost all men will immediately abuse any power given them. Because they fail to recognize and overcome these two fatal faults here on earth, and because such faults cannot be tolerated in those who exercise power in heaven, almost all men will be disqualified in the hereafter. The following verses explain that even though men receive the Priesthood here on earth, when they undertake to abuse power and gratify their pride and vain ambitions, that priesthood will be taken from them:

"That they [the rights of the priesthood] may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambitions, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man."

(D&C 121:34-36, 39-40) (v.37)

Evidence that almost all men will abuse any power given them, and that they will do so for the purpose of seeking the things of this world and the honors of men, is easily found. There is one, and only one, situation where people may exercise unrighteous compulsion without fear of physical punishment or condemnation from their fellow men, and that is through the agency of government. When they use this organization for the purpose of gratifying their pride and vain ambitions, not only are they safe from retaliation by those they oppose, but the agency whose function it is to punish such acts is now being used to commit them. When a person or group have such a power at their disposal, the only thing left to restrain their abuse of it is conscience. But since the Lord has said that the restraint of conscience is insufficient for "almost all men" we must expect that when men gain control of government, they will abuse its power. Let us note that this is true.


HOW MEN ABUSE THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT TO COMMIT PLUNDER


All rational men know it is wrong to steal. Not only is it a crime forbidden by the laws of God and man, but since each person's possessions are sacred to him, he aware of his duty to respect the property rights of others. In spite of this universal moral code, it is common practice throughout the world for men to use government to forcibly take property from its rightful owner and transfer it to one to whom it does not belong. Every welfare-state measure has this effect. While the Lord has authorized the use of force to compel each person to bear his fair share of the cost of defending freedom, never has he authorized robbery either by men acting singly or in groups. On the other hand He has forbidden it and those who believe otherwise are deceived.

"Woe unto the poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men's goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with their own hands!"

(D&C 56:17)


TO COMMIT RACKETEERING!


When a group uses physical violence outside the framework of government to give themselves monopoly power in a certain field of economic activity, we call it racketeering. When the machinery of government is used to accomplish the same purpose, we call it licensing. But the effect and purpose are the same in the two cases. In each instance the buying public is prevented from patronizing whom they please and are forced to deal with those having the monopoly. Mens' hearts are "set so much on the things of this world and the honors of men" that they do not learn this one lesson--" that the real purpose of licensing laws is to obtain "the things of this world and the honors of men." They easily deceive themselves into believing that such laws are necessary to prevent crime. But the criminal laws already punish every conceivable type of crime and licensing laws can add nothing to them. On the other hand the enforcement of such laws is in itself a crime---the crime of racketeering. That is sanctioned by a legislative body cannot change this fact in the least degree even though men deceive themselves into believing it does.


TO COMPEL OTHERS TO HIRE US AND PAY OUR SALARIES


Government has one legitimate function---that of defending freedom. The armies and navies which defend our borders; the executive and judicial which enforce our rights and protect us against criminals; the legislature which adopts laws for these purposes---each are essential to the defense of human liberties. Everyone desires liberty for himself and wants his own protected. Therefore when one is required to help bear the cost of this protection, he is not being compelled to purchase something he does not want or use. But when government is employed for any purpose except the defense of freedom, many taxpayers will be compelled to support functions they neither want nor use. Therefore any person who favors a law which has some purpose other than "supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges," is committing evil. (D&C 98:5-7) Any person who is employed by government to execute such laws is compelling taxpayers to pay his salary against their will and is committing extortion. This the Lord has forbidden. (D&C 59:20) Furthermore if government is used to compel a private employer to hire an employee or pay a minimum wage or other compensation against his will, this also is extortion. Man's desire for the things of this world tend to blind him to this truth.


TO EXERCISE UNRIGHTEOUS DOMINION


Each man desires to be free to spend his own money, manage his own home, operate his own farm or business, and otherwise conduct the affairs of his life which are personal to him. Usually he doesn't want others knowing about his personal affairs, much less does he want them using force and the threat thereof to dictate how he shall handle them. Therefore people are not inclined to intrude into one another's concerns---at least on a private level. It would not only be in poor taste, but criminal as well. But that which is seen so clearly when done by any individual becomes hidden when done as a group. When men act in the name of government, no person's property or business is sacred. No longer do they hesitate to deny others the privacy and freedom they desire for themselves. No longer is there any fear of retaliation or public condemnation to restrain them from exhibiting that disposition common to almost all men---the tendency to exercise unrighteous dominion.


MAN'S BLINDNESS TO IMMORAL GROUP ACTION


If the four activities of government listed above constitute an essential part of the devil's plan, then the predictions of a Gentile apostasy accompanied by wholesale deception have been largely fulfilled because "almost all men," whether within the Church or without have been deceived into believing in and participating in some or all of them. Over the years the power of government in every nation has been corrupted and men have become accustomed to, and have accepted, this massive system of privilege and plunder; of regulated monopoly and legalized oppression. If these activities constitute the exercise of "unrighteous dominion," then the reason "many are called but few are chosen" is also apparent.

Satan's overwhelming success in destroying free agency lies in his ability to seduce men into doing, as a group, that which they know to be evil when done by the individual. Men are deceived into believing that moral law which applies to individual action does not apply when men act in groups. They fail to recognize that each person is morally accountable unto God for the compulsion exercised under every law he favors. They do not study and understand those scriptures which command men to adopt no laws except God's laws for protecting freedom, but blindly assume that when the Lord gives to a nation of people the power of self-government, He thereby authorizes them to adopt any laws they desire. They tend to ignore that great lesson of religious history which teaches that both the Lord and Satan seek to control government and that man chooses between these two contending powers by deciding what laws and leaders he supports and opposes. Thus have men in each generation been led to believe in and help execute Satan's plan to destroy human liberty.

http://www.greaterthings.com/HVerlanAnd ... ostasy.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also; The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil
http://www.redhotlogo.com/1-Great%20and ... inable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 9:26 am
by SempiternalHarbinger
My pleasure Jules! Hope all is well and look forward to seeing you on Thursday.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 1:48 pm
by Matthew.B
My eyes have been opening to this truth lately... IMO, the Church has already been through a few periods of "apostasy" and "restoration". If we define "apostasy" as "turning away from the Light we have been given", then the cessation of polygamy was an "apostasy" (I've been interested to learn of the heated arguments and divisions within the 12 during this period, and Heber J. Grant essentially aiding and abetting the government in the hunt for polygamists near the end of his Presidency).

Then, we were given prophets who raised their warning voice against the secret combinations of government, but it doesn't seem like may people received that Truth like it was meat to be received; now we've all but forgotten those teachings to the point where intellectual members in supposedly good standing publicly speak out against those teachings blatantly without any reprimand. I fear that the influence of the so-called "Cultural" Mormons is spreading- aided by a spirit of apostasy going forth in recent years.

Another minor apostasy coming soon? Or the major apostasy spoken of in the scriptures, where the Gentiles rejected the fulness of the Gospel?

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 2:00 pm
by Matthew.B
SempiternalHarbinger wrote:Particularly two things which are... Are the members of the church referred to gentiles in the Book of Mormon? And second, do the scriptures and have the prophets warned us of a latter-day apostasy?
In "The Cleansing of America" Cleon Skousen says that "Getiles" can be described as "strangers to God's law and the pattern for righteous living". He cites Lev. 22, Deut. 24, Exodus 12, referring to the "strangers" that dwelt among Israel.

If "Gentiles" are those who don't live according to the patterns of God's law, than I fear that anyone living inside of America, whose laws are now fashioned more after the manner of Babylon than of God, would be a "Gentile". The case may be made that Church members aren't Gentiles, depending on their personal devotion to the laws of God, but I fear that few Church members would qualify as Hebrews (Israelites) even according to the most lenient of standards.

I think this is one of the reasons we need to keep the Federal Government in check- the modern laws are anathema to God's laws, and the MO of the Feds are to force everyone to homogenize into this godless culture and lifestyle.

As for prophetic warning of a latter-day apostasy, the writings of Verlan H. Adersen you posted seems to clear up that question...

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 2:24 pm
by reese
Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [that is us],(who is us??) it is wisdom in God that these things should
be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these
murderous combinations shall get above you, . . .It amazes me that we will read this warning and apply it to ourselves right now, with Moroni clearly calling us gentiles. And yet in other scriptures condeming the gentiles, particularly for "religious" sins some insist that we LDS's are not gentiles.

There is many more but I have to run. I am a little confused because I have noticed a few different definitions which contradict each other. I have found that gentile does include members of the church and have found ample evidence it is not, and are in fact those who are not members. Here is the talk by Verlan H. Andersen which suggest when gentiles is referred to in the Book of Mormon it is referring to members of the church. Great talk nonetheless. I was wondering if Verlan has it wrong or right. Thoughts appreciated. Especially Shadow, because he has made a very compelling case for one side and Verlan makes a compelling argument for the other.. Thanks.Well I don't know Semp, Verlan was a G.A., shadow on the other hand.... :ymdevil:

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 2:48 pm
by shadow
That's true Reese, I'm no GA!
I don't believe that being a LDS means a person is NOT a gentile. Lot's of gentile members IMO.
Being a gentile is the same as being a tare IMO. Those two words can interchangeable even though the word gentile is more expandable (includes others than just members).
But not all members are tares, some are wheat. Not all members are gentile either.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 2:53 pm
by sbsion
when I was a missionary my senior companions always called me gentile, does that mean I was one?

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 18th, 2011, 8:04 pm
by reese
WE ARE ALL GENTILES AND THIS IS THE GENTILE CHURCH
The term "gentile" applies to all of the so-called Christian nations among which Israel has been scattered (I Nep 13:1 3). The blood of Israel is our heritage, but we are Gentiles, citizens of the greatest of all the Gentile nations.
The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants both refer to us as Gentiles. Even the prophet Joseph is recognized as a Gentile:

1.The title page of the Book of Mormon says: "... to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile...

2.Nephi declares: "Then shall the fullness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed. I Nep 15:13 14.

3.The D&C contains: "... the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. D&C 109:60.

I think maybe part of the problem some have with considering us gentiles, is that they think of it as a negative thing. I don't look at it as negative. After all the Lord said some of the gentiles would repent and return(how can you return to something if you never had it to begin with) to him and be counted with the remnant.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 19th, 2011, 8:39 pm
by LukeAir2008
Gentile. The word gentiles means the nations, and eventually came to be used to mean all those not of the house of Israel. It is first used in Genesis with reference to the descendants of Japheth (Gen. 10:2–5). As used throughout the scriptures it has a dual meaning, sometimes to designate peoples of non-Israelite lineage, and other times to designate nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon.

The duties of Israelites toward gentiles were defined in the law (Ex. 23:32; 34:12–16; Deut. 7:1–3; 20:10–18; 23:3–8; Ezra 9:2–15; 10:1–18; Neh. 13:1–3, 23–31). These regulations served to emphasize the distinction between Israel and gentile. However, there were numerous provisions showing that Israel was to deal justly and honestly with non-Israelites and to be compassionate toward them (Ex. 22:21; 23:9; Lev. 19:10, 33–34; 24:22).

The pious Jews of New Testament times held themselves aloof from contact with the gentiles. When a gentile was converted to Judaism, he was called a proselyte. Even in the Church there was a cultural and doctrinal struggle among many Jewish Christians before they would permit one of gentile lineage to enjoy full fellowship. The first gentiles to come into the New Testament Church were those who had already become proselytes to Judaism.

Cornelius (Acts 10–11) was the first gentile of whom we have record who came into the Christian Church without first being a proselyte to Judaism. He was introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ through a series of divine manifestations both to him and to Peter.

Paul was called the “apostle of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:13), and it was primarily through his ministry that the gospel was established among those of gentile lineage throughout Europe and Asia Minor, although the way was opened by Peter’s baptism of Cornelius. See also Cornelius; Proselytes.(LDS Bible Dictionary)
We are 'gentiles' because we are citizens of a nation that is not Israel. We are also of Israel either by lineage because we are descendants of one of the Tribes or by adoption because we are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 19th, 2011, 8:59 pm
by cayenne
JulesGP wrote:
reese wrote:WE ARE ALL GENTILES AND THIS IS THE GENTILE CHURCH
The term "gentile" applies to all of the so-called Christian nations among which Israel has been scattered (I Nep 13:1 3). The blood of Israel is our heritage, but we are Gentiles, citizens of the greatest of all the Gentile nations.
The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants both refer to us as Gentiles. Even the prophet Joseph is recognized as a Gentile:

1.The title page of the Book of Mormon says: "... to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile...

2.Nephi declares: "Then shall the fullness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed. I Nep 15:13 14.

3.The D&C contains: "... the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. D&C 109:60.

I think maybe part of the problem some have with considering us gentiles, is that they think of it as a negative thing. I don't look at it as negative. After all the Lord said some of the gentiles would repent and return(how can you return to something if you never had it to begin with) to him and be counted with the remnant.
Thanks Reese, I was going to start my "We ARE the Gentiles" post, and you covered it for me! The Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles - we HAVE the Gospel.... right? It will be taken from US - the CHURCH, because of our apostasy!!!!
6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles�for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them�
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.
This is talking about US!! (Thank you BrentL for helping me to understand this better!)
good one. thats how i get it!

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 19th, 2011, 10:40 pm
by firefighter007
NAILED IT!!!

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 19th, 2011, 11:05 pm
by firefighter007
Remember what Laman and Lemuel said about the people of Jerusalem in 1 Nephi 22:17...
22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.
The people of Jerusalem were keeping the Law of Moses. They believed them to be a "righteous people." Yet we know that they were ripe for destruction. I fear that many of us are in the same shoes as the people at Jerusalem during Lehi's time.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 1:05 am
by AshleyB
Awesome post Semp. I think this should be considered and discussed more then it is. Its a topic worth discussion and serious reflection. Even prayer.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 11:04 am
by shadow
[quote="JulesGP"][Thanks Reese, I was going to start my "We ARE the Gentiles" post, and you covered it for me! The Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles - we HAVE the Gospel.... right? It will be taken from US - the CHURCH, because of our apostasy!!!!
[quote]
No, it won't be taken from the church. It will be taken from the gentile members of the church, the tares will be separated out and the wheat will be left. It will not nor has the gospel been taken from the church. While a good portion (how many I have no idea) of the members are or will become apostate, many will stay faithful.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 11:50 am
by firend
firefighter007 wrote:Remember what Laman and Lemuel said about the people of Jerusalem in 1 Nephi 22:17...
22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.
The people of Jerusalem were keeping the Law of Moses. They believed them to be a "righteous people." Yet we know that they were ripe for destruction. I fear that many of us are in the same shoes as the people at Jerusalem during Lehi's time.
has any one thought about in the time of jerusalem 600 BC the leaders of Israel were blasted by the Lord? It was not just the people. The Lacktish letters back this up too. The leaders were robbing the poor, and teaching much falsehood, so ofcourse laman and lemuel thought the people were righteous. These were men sitting in Moses seat....later the men in Moses seat were blasted by Christ in his day for their wickedness. History repeats.

I am just saying is it possible wolves have crept into those who sit in Moses seat today?

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 11:55 am
by NoGreaterLove
No, it won't be taken from the church. It will be taken from the gentile members of the church, the tares will be separated out and the wheat will be left. It will not nor has the gospel been taken from the church. While a good portion (how many I have no idea) of the members are or will become apostate, many will stay faithful.
Amen!

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 12:23 pm
by Original_Intent
Look at how much disagreement we have, even among ourselves. I consider [most] of the participants in LDSFF to be the salt of the earth, and yet even among ourselves how much disagreement is there regarding politics, and almost any doctrinal subject. I realize that there are a few RLDS or other wolves in sheeps clothing - but even among people who seem to be solid members there is such a wide range of opinion, it is no surprise that the subjects are not taught in Sunday School as it would likely degenerate to a fistfight (joking) but seriously, can you imagine a serious deep doctrine discussion in Sunday School that would not end in many being offended and possibly leaving?

They tried to stone Lehi, and if we still practiced the stoning of those who led people to worship false gods - would we not be casting a lot of stones? Would Denver Snuffer likely be stoned by those who have not even read his books, because they have seized upon some fragment of a thought that they considered blasphemy? Not to say D.S in any way is comparible to Lehi, but I wonder how many of US would have been on the side that tried to stone Lehi?

By the way I bring up Denver only as an example, please do not derail this thread into a discussion on him - thanks.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 12:56 pm
by shadow
Disagreeing does not equal stoning.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 1:03 pm
by Original_Intent
shadow wrote:Disagreeing does not equal stoning.
Thanks for the insight. :-o

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 3:22 pm
by Oldemandalton
firend ;
has any one thought about in the time of jerusalem 600 BC the leaders of Israel were blasted by the Lord? It was not just the people. The Lacktish letters back this up too. The leaders were robbing the poor, and teaching much falsehood, so ofcourse laman and lemuel thought the people were righteous. These were men sitting in Moses seat....later the men in Moses seat were blasted by Christ in his day for their wickedness. History repeats.
I am just saying is it possible wolves have crept into those who sit in Moses seat today

Christ condemned the apostate leaders of the Jews in Jerusalem. They had no prophet/Moses. I am sure he would do that to the leaders of our nation and the world if He was among us today.
Who is in Moses’ seat today, firend? Thomas S. Monson. Is he a wolf who crept into his position?


Original_Intent;
Look at how much disagreement we have, even among ourselves. I consider [most] of the participants in LDSFF to be the salt of the earth, and yet even among ourselves how much disagreement is there regarding politics, and almost any doctrinal subject. I realize that there are a few RLDS or other wolves in sheeps clothing - but even among people who seem to be solid members there is such a wide range of opinion, it is no surprise that the subjects are not taught in Sunday School as it would likely degenerate to a fistfight (joking) but seriously, can you imagine a serious deep doctrine discussion in Sunday School that would not end in many being offended and possibly leaving?

Yes we all disagree at some point or another. We disagree with each other. Should we disagree with the prophet when he speaks of doctrine or Church structure?
Why are not ‘deep’ doctrine taught in church curriculum?


Deep Doctrine and the Mysteries of God
Rachel Bruner
Latter-day Saints Guide

Part 1: Is it okay to think and talk about mysteries and deep doctrines that aren't taught in church?

This article contains my personal thoughts and feelings regarding deep doctrines and the mysteries of God. Part two of this feature contains quotes by our Latter-day Saint Prophet, Apostles and other church leaders on the mysteries of God, deep doctrines and when they are/aren't appropriate.

One of my favorite scriptures in the Book of Mormon is when Alma is talking to Zeezrom about how knowledge is given to those who will receive it and taken from those who don't:

"And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him

And therefore, he that will harden his hear, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell
." (Alma 12:9-11)

My interpretation of this scripture is that God blesses people to know His mysteries but they should only be talked about with those who also believe and are ready to learn. I think pondering the mysteries of God is a great way to expand our understanding and to open our mind to the Spirit and His teachings. We must be careful that when we teach and talk with others we focus on the basics but that it is okay to talk with others (such as in personal conversations or forums) about the many possibilities as long as it is clear that what we say or write are the thoughts of the individual and not Church doctrines.

In the Pearl of Great Price there is a scripture that I believe was directed to Joseph Smith from God when Joseph was translating the first chapter of Moses:

"These words were spoken unto Moses in the mount.... And now they are spoken unto you. Show them not unto any except them that believe. Even so. Amen." (Moses 1:42)

I think there is a time and place for "deep doctrine discussions" but that church meetings, classes, seminary programs, etc. are not appropriate places for deep doctrines to be discussed. I don't agree when people say we shouldn't talk or wonder about the mysterious things of God. I do agree that we must be rooted to the gospel, that Christ must be our Rock, but the scriptures clearly indicate that God blesses people (including all of us) with knowledge of his mysteries.

Other scriptures I like that talk about the mysteries of God:

"Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed..." (Alma 26:22)

"If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal." (D&C 42:61)

I strongly believe that Heavenly Father wants us to think about His gospel and its teachings, doctrines and principles. There is a time and place for pondering the unknown, the mysteries of God, and there are many times and places when it is not appropriate.

At times I have felt His Spirit touch my heart and mind while pondering His mysteries. My mind has been opened, my heart has been softened and my joy has been full.

Part 2: Quotes by our LDS Church Leaders

Gordon B. Hinckley:
"As a Church, we encourage gospel scholarship and the search to understand all truth. Fundamental to our theology is belief in individual freedom of inquiry, thought, and expression. Constructive discussion is a privilege of every Latter-day Saint.
"But it is the greater obligation of every Latter-day Saint to move forward the work of the Lord, to strengthen His kingdom on the earth, to teach faith and build testimony in that which God has brought to pass in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times." ("Keep the Faith," Ensign, Sept. 1985, 5-6)

Joseph B. Wirthlin:
"God has revealed everything necessary for our salvation. We should teach and dwell on the things that have been revealed and avoid delving into so-called mysteries. My counsel to teachers in the Church, whether they instruct in wards and stakes, Church institutions of higher learning, institutes of religion, seminaries, or even as parents in their homes, is to base their teachings on the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets." ("Deep Roots," Ensign, Nov. 1994, 77)

Dallin H. Oaks:
"As I have pondered how to prevent spiritual malnutrition and how to transfer faith and spirituality from one generation to the next, I have concluded that the most important thing we can understand in this matter is that spiritual truths - what the scriptures sometimes call the 'mysteries of God' - must be taught and transmitted in the Lord's way, not in the world's way. This is demonstrated again and again in the scriptures.
"When Father Lehi sought to explain his vision to his rebellious older sons and exhort them to keep the commandments of God, they fell into disputing over his words. Young Nephi, who had just experienced the glorious interpreting vision he had sought, recorded that his father had spoken 'many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought' (1 Ne. 15:3) We need to remember Nephi's teaching that the mysteries of God, the choicest of spiritual food, cannot be understood 'save a man should inquire of the Lord.'" ("Nourishing the Spirit," Ensign, Dec. 1998, 7)

"The things of God cannot be learned solely by study and reason. Despite their essential and beneficial uses, the methods of study and reason are insufficient as ways of approaching God and understanding the doctrines of his gospel. We cannot come to know the things of God while rejecting or failing to use the indispensable method God has prescribed to learn these things. The things of God must be learned in his own way, through faith in God and revelation from the Holy Ghost." ("The Lord's Way," 1991, 56)

M. Russell Ballard:
"Oh, that every one of us might have the power and the feeling of the great prophet Nephi! I love these words in 1 Nephi 2:16: "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceeding young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God." Do you have that desire, a great desire to know of the mysteries of God? Do you desire it enough to pay the price? Nephi did. 'Wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.'
"Oh, the power there is in having a desire to know with all your heart the things of God.... Oh, that we would have the desire burning in our hearts, with all of the power we are capable of mustering, to know the mysteries of God! That the spirit might be educated and prepared for that great day of promise when we will go back into the presence of our Heavenly Father!" ("Is It Worth It?" New Era, June 1984, 38)

Wayne Lynn:
"Some gospel subjects are sacred and should be spoken of not only with care but under proper conditions, in proper places, and, in some cases, by proper priesthood authorities. Regarding some gospel subjects, the Lord has revealed relatively little or has not answered certain related questions. Those with sincere questions the Lord has not yet chosen to answer need to exercise faith, knowing that at an appropriate time answers will be given. Until then, we need to broaden our gospel understanding through faith, study, and obedience." ("I Have a Question," Ensign, June 1997, 60)

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Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 20th, 2011, 3:34 pm
by Jason
JulesGP wrote:
reese wrote:WE ARE ALL GENTILES AND THIS IS THE GENTILE CHURCH
The term "gentile" applies to all of the so-called Christian nations among which Israel has been scattered (I Nep 13:1 3). The blood of Israel is our heritage, but we are Gentiles, citizens of the greatest of all the Gentile nations.
The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants both refer to us as Gentiles. Even the prophet Joseph is recognized as a Gentile:

1.The title page of the Book of Mormon says: "... to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile...

2.Nephi declares: "Then shall the fullness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed. I Nep 15:13 14.

3.The D&C contains: "... the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. D&C 109:60.

I think maybe part of the problem some have with considering us gentiles, is that they think of it as a negative thing. I don't look at it as negative. After all the Lord said some of the gentiles would repent and return(how can you return to something if you never had it to begin with) to him and be counted with the remnant.
Thanks Reese, I was going to start my "We ARE the Gentiles" post, and you covered it for me! The Gospel will be taken from the Gentiles - we HAVE the Gospel.... right? It will be taken from US - the CHURCH, because of our apostasy!!!!
6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles�for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.
This is talking about US!! (Thank you BrentL for helping me to understand this better!)
Hence church's efforts to acclimate our dear brother's from down south....



Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 21st, 2011, 11:29 am
by sbsion
bottom line......is it apostacy to question apostacy, or is apostacy so rampant, that we call true lie, or-in-other words, apostacy? ;)

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 25th, 2011, 11:12 pm
by Oldemandalton
You know you are an apostate if;

1.You don’t do 100% Home teaching.

2.Have not read the Book of Mormon this year.

3.You haven’t done genealogy. [Your Aunt Martha doing it for you does not count.]

4.Didn’t say your three prayers today.

5.Watch R rated movies.

6.Watch football on Sunday.

7.Don’t do Family Home Evening each week.

8.Don’t have a temple recommend.

9.Missed paying tithing.

10.Don’t pay a ‘generous’ fast offering.

11.Don’t read scriptures each day with the family or self.

12.Don’t kneel with your spouse twice a day in prayer.


Almost every member of the church is an ‘apostate’!

OMD

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 26th, 2011, 11:14 am
by NoGreaterLove
Oldemandalton wrote:You know you are an apostate if;

1.You don’t do 100% Home teaching.

2.Have not read the Book of Mormon this year.

3.You haven’t done genealogy. [Your Aunt Martha doing it for you does not count.]

4.Didn’t say your three prayers today.

5.Watch R rated movies.

6.Watch football on Sunday.

7.Don’t do Family Home Evening each week.

8.Don’t have a temple recommend.

9.Missed paying tithing.

10.Don’t pay a ‘generous’ fast offering.

11.Don’t read scriptures each day with the family or self.

12.Don’t kneel with your spouse twice a day in prayer.


Almost every member of the church is an ‘apostate’!

OMD
Very good OMD. A good example pointing out there are different things we can neglect to do that will lead us on to the road to apostasy. And each of us in some respect have traveled that road to varying degrees. The key is repentance. And we sure do not want to be teaching others to be apostate.

Re: The Apostasy of the Latter Days

Posted: October 26th, 2011, 12:36 pm
by Oldemandalton
I seem to remember something about beams and motes.