LDS Freedom Forum

We do not have to be 'perfect in all things' in this life in order to be considered by God to be 'righteous & worthy of the Celestial Kingdom'. He tells us that we only have to be living the commandments 'enough' to have the Holy Spirit as our guide, so we aren't deceived to support or do evil in any major way, or so if we are briefly deceived by the philosophies of men, then the Spirit can alert us & we can catch ourselves & repent.

Of course though, it does take a pretty high level of 'commandment & covenant keeping' to be worthy of the Holy Spirit.

Jacob 5:73 And there began to be the natural fruit again in the vineyard; and the natural branches began to grow and thrive exceedingly; and the wild branches began to be plucked off and to be cast away; and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.

Has the process of plucking off wild branches begun yet. Has this been an ongoing process or will this occur in the future?

davedan wrote:Jacob 5:73 And there began to be the natural fruit again in the vineyard; and the natural branches began to grow and thrive exceedingly; and the wild branches began to be plucked off and to be cast away; and they did keep the root and the top thereof equal, according to the strength thereof.

Has the process of plucking off wild branches begun yet. Has this been an ongoing process or will this occur in the future?

Read the whole chapter and put it together with a timeline!!!

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: do the scriptures and have the prophets warned us of a latter-day apostasy? "

I believe the scriptures have warned us many times over of a 'latter day apostasy' of all members, except a few.

And I believe that it has already happened & we are in the midst of it.

Amore Vero wrote:

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: do the scriptures and have the prophets warned us of a latter-day apostasy? "

I believe the scriptures have warned us many times over of a 'latter day apostasy' of all members, except a few.

And I believe that it has already happened & we are in the midst of it.

Lets cut the crap here Amore and put the cards on the table. Its obvious to me from your posts that you don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is being guided and directed by living Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Where do you think all the keys of the Kingdom are invested? What prophets do you sustain as such? Am I reading you wrong?

Mark wrote:

Amore Vero wrote: I believe the scriptures have warned us many times over of a 'latter day apostasy' of all members, except a few.

And I believe that it has already happened & we are in the midst of it.

Lets cut the crap here Amore and put the cards on the table. Its obvious to me from your posts that you don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is being guided and directed by living Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Where do you think all the keys of the Kingdom are invested? What prophets do you sustain as such? Am I reading you wrong?

I didn't say the leadership has apostatized or that they have lost any authority or keys, just that the majority of the members have because they have not followed the living Prophets.

I don't believe the authority will ever be lost or taken from the earth again.

Amore Vero wrote:

Mark wrote:

Amore Vero wrote: I believe the scriptures have warned us many times over of a 'latter day apostasy' of all members, except a few.

And I believe that it has already happened & we are in the midst of it.

Lets cut the crap here Amore and put the cards on the table. Its obvious to me from your posts that you don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is being guided and directed by living Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Where do you think all the keys of the Kingdom are invested? What prophets do you sustain as such? Am I reading you wrong?

I didn't say the leadership has apostatized or that they have lost any authority or keys, just that the majority of the members have because they have not followed the living Prophets.

I don't believe the authority will ever be lost or taken from the earth again.

My apologies if I have misread you Amore. So you do sustain Thomas S. Monson as the only man who holds and is authorized to exercise all the keys of the Priesthood on earth?

Motes and Beams!

How Lehi’s Dream applies to the last day saints of North America. Remember the Book of Mormon was written for us. Likening the scriptures unto ourselves. May we all qualify to be wise virgins and avoid the apostasy that is and will come.

1 Nephi 8: 9-16, 30 -The wise virgins. These partake of all of the blessings of the gospel and are truly temple worthy and have a year or more supply of food, water, and supplies. They have also taken the Holy Spirit as their guide (remained worthy of His influence and guidance). These gather to the refuges in the rocky mountain states and other appointed gathering places in North America. These are the ones who survive the purging of the church in the near future.

1 Nephi 8:21-23 -The tares (the 50% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church per John Taylor). These have very little spiritual conviction. They started down the straight and narrow path that leads to the iron rod (joined the church)but would not give up the things of the world including their sins. These join with evil nonmembers who persecute the unwise virgins.

1 Nephi 8:24-28 -The unwise virgins. These saints have weak testimonies and they have gone to the temple but their hearts on set upon the things of the world. These are the additional 25% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church because of the persecution they receive from the tares and evil nonmembers (pointing and mockling from the large and spacious building and are then ashamed). These are not able to gather to the refuges because they are not worthy or ready.

1 Nephi 8:31-33 - The nonmembers. These are incited by the apostate tares to persecute the unwise virgins into denouncing their membership in the church. These help slay some apostles and other faithful saints as well.

kenh wrote:How Lehi’s Dream applies to the last day saints of North America. Remember the Book of Mormon was written for us. Likening the scriptures unto ourselves. May we all qualify to be wise virgins and avoid the apostasy that is and will come.

1 Nephi 8: 9-16, 30 -The wise virgins. These partake of all of the blessings of the gospel and are truly temple worthy and have a year or more supply of food, water, and supplies. They have also taken the Holy Spirit as their guide (remained worthy of His influence and guidance). These gather to the refuges in the rocky mountain states and other appointed gathering places in North America. These are the ones who survive the purging of the church in the near future.

1 Nephi 8:21-23 -The tares (the 50% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church per John Taylor). These have very little spiritual conviction. They started down the straight and narrow path that leads to the iron rod (joined the church)but would not give up the things of the world including their sins. These join with evil nonmembers who persecute the unwise virgins.

1 Nephi 8:24-28 -The unwise virgins. These saints have weak testimonies and they have gone to the temple but their hearts on set upon the things of the world. These are the additional 25% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church because of the persecution they receive from the tares and evil nonmembers (pointing and mockling from the large and spacious building and are then ashamed). These are not able to gather to the refuges because they are not worthy or ready.

1 Nephi 8:31-33 - The nonmembers. These are incited by the apostate tares to persecute the unwise virgins into denouncing their membership in the church. These help slay some apostles and other faithful saints as well.

I agree with you on mostly everything, however, I think this doesn't just apply to Saints in Mexico, US, Canada(North America) this goes beyond those countries, the dream applies to anyone who accepts the gospel, and then rejects it, because of the scorn of the world/attraction to the world....the phrase "The Lord is no respecter of persons" applies here.... this is just my humble opinion....

Here is more interesting stuff:

"What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things." Doctrine and Covenants 77:14

I'm not aware that Elias which is John, has come and restored anything. Are you? If he hasn't, then why will he come and restore what we already have?

John will lead the lost tribes to NJ for he is among them. So at least he helps restore them to the gathering of the saints. He helped restore the keys of the dispensation of the fulness of times and the keys of the priesthood with Peter and James in 1829. He could also be one of the 4 angels that seal up to eternal life the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations. The other three could be the three Nephites. Resurrected beings do not perform earthly ordinances, so the sealing up to eternal life would require them to be translated beings or mortal men, more than likely those four would be the ones to do that.

Zkulptor wrote:

kenh wrote:How Lehi’s Dream applies to the last day saints of North America. Remember the Book of Mormon was written for us. Likening the scriptures unto ourselves. May we all qualify to be wise virgins and avoid the apostasy that is and will come.

1 Nephi 8: 9-16, 30 -The wise virgins. These partake of all of the blessings of the gospel and are truly temple worthy and have a year or more supply of food, water, and supplies. They have also taken the Holy Spirit as their guide (remained worthy of His influence and guidance). These gather to the refuges in the rocky mountain states and other appointed gathering places in North America. These are the ones who survive the purging of the church in the near future.

1 Nephi 8:21-23 -The tares (the 50% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church per John Taylor). These have very little spiritual conviction. They started down the straight and narrow path that leads to the iron rod (joined the church)but would not give up the things of the world including their sins. These join with evil nonmembers who persecute the unwise virgins.

1 Nephi 8:24-28 -The unwise virgins. These saints have weak testimonies and they have gone to the temple but their hearts on set upon the things of the world. These are the additional 25% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church because of the persecution they receive from the tares and evil nonmembers (pointing and mockling from the large and spacious building and are then ashamed). These are not able to gather to the refuges because they are not worthy or ready.

1 Nephi 8:31-33 - The nonmembers. These are incited by the apostate tares to persecute the unwise virgins into denouncing their membership in the church. These help slay some apostles and other faithful saints as well.

I agree with you on mostly everything, however, I think this doesn't just apply to Saints in Mexico, US, Canada(North America) this goes beyond those countries, the dream applies to anyone who accepts the gospel, and then rejects it, because of the scorn of the world/attraction to the world....the phrase "The Lord is no respecter of persons" applies here.... this is just my humble opinion....

I also agree with you it does apply to everyone in the latter days. I was just trying to apply these verses to those who would more than likely read them here. Thank you for your helpful insight.

Where do you get the idea that resurrected beings do not perform earthly ordinances?

You even mention Peter and James as restoring the Priesthood. Of course John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood.

Moses and Elijah were translated because they were required to perform ordinances PRIOR to the resurrection.

LukeAir2008 wrote:Where do you get the idea that resurrected beings do not perform earthly ordinances?

You even mention Peter and James as restoring the Priesthood. Of course John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood.

Moses and Elijah were translated because they were required to perform ordinances PRIOR to the resurrection.

When it comes to conferring keys and ordaining Joseph and Oliver apostles yes they can since no mortal person could have done those things at that time on earth. Once the keys have been restored through Peter, James, John in 1829 and the other keys were restored in the Kirkland temple, especially the power to bind on earth and seal in heaven, then the power to do these things has been put back into the hands of mortal beings. The resurrected priesthood holders would no longer be involved with any earthly ordinances from that time on for men would be performing them themselves. God will not do anything we have the power to do ourselves with His power. That is why the keys were restored in the first place. We have men upon the earth now who can and do seal people up unto eternal life, therefore we would not need resurrected priesthood holders to perform any priesthood ordinances at this time. I made mention of John, the Beloved and the three Nephites since we know that all three of them are translated beings who have the power to seal up unto eternal life. Of course, these four angels could very well be mortal prophet, seers, and revelators who also have the power to do that. We shall see. Thank you for your comment, I should have explained myself better then, hopefully I have now. Translated beings are not resurrected and are technically still mortal.

kenh wrote:

Zkulptor wrote:

kenh wrote:How Lehi’s Dream applies to the last day saints of North America. Remember the Book of Mormon was written for us. Likening the scriptures unto ourselves. May we all qualify to be wise virgins and avoid the apostasy that is and will come.

1 Nephi 8: 9-16, 30 -The wise virgins. These partake of all of the blessings of the gospel and are truly temple worthy and have a year or more supply of food, water, and supplies. They have also taken the Holy Spirit as their guide (remained worthy of His influence and guidance). These gather to the refuges in the rocky mountain states and other appointed gathering places in North America. These are the ones who survive the purging of the church in the near future.

1 Nephi 8:21-23 -The tares (the 50% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church per John Taylor). These have very little spiritual conviction. They started down the straight and narrow path that leads to the iron rod (joined the church)but would not give up the things of the world including their sins. These join with evil nonmembers who persecute the unwise virgins.

1 Nephi 8:24-28 -The unwise virgins. These saints have weak testimonies and they have gone to the temple but their hearts on set upon the things of the world. These are the additional 25% of the total church membership who will apostatize from the church because of the persecution they receive from the tares and evil nonmembers (pointing and mockling from the large and spacious building and are then ashamed). These are not able to gather to the refuges because they are not worthy or ready.

1 Nephi 8:31-33 - The nonmembers. These are incited by the apostate tares to persecute the unwise virgins into denouncing their membership in the church. These help slay some apostles and other faithful saints as well.

I agree with you on mostly everything, however, I think this doesn't just apply to Saints in Mexico, US, Canada(North America) this goes beyond those countries, the dream applies to anyone who accepts the gospel, and then rejects it, because of the scorn of the world/attraction to the world....the phrase "The Lord is no respecter of persons" applies here.... this is just my humble opinion....

I also agree with you it does apply to everyone in the latter days. I was just trying to apply these verses to those who would more than likely read them here. Thank you for your helpful insight.

No, thank you for your humble reply

There is apostasy outside the church, if you want to call it that, there is some apostasy within the church, but the church itself, namely the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Joseph Smith helped set up and named by revelation, will never go into apostasy!!! This church is the "little stone cut out of the mountain without hands," which shall never be destroyed or left to other people", as Daniel prophesied!! People may leave the church through apostasy, and even form another church because they feel "offended" as Christ stated, or perhaps for another reason, but they do so to their own damnation! One chief reason, that I have observed, which leads to apostasy is one being lifted up in the pride of his own wisdom and learning, and then he finally decides that he knows more that the prophets and apostles who God has given the charge to lead his church!

gdemetz wrote:There is apostasy outside the church, if you want to call it that, there is some apostasy within the church, but the church itself, namely the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Joseph Smith helped set up and named by revelation, will never go into apostasy!!! This church is the "little stone cut out of the mountain without hands," which shall never be destroyed or left to other people", as Daniel prophesied!! People may leave the church through apostasy, and even form another church because they feel "offended" as Christ stated, or perhaps for another reason, but they do so to their own damnation! One chief reason, that I have observed, which leads to apostasy is one being lifted up in the pride of his own wisdom and learning, and then he finally decides that he knows more that the prophets and apostles who God has given the charge to lead his church!

well said! :ymapplause:

gdemetz wrote:There is apostasy outside the church, if you want to call it that, there is some apostasy within the church, but the church itself, namely the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Joseph Smith helped set up and named by revelation, will never go into apostasy!!! This church is the "little stone cut out of the mountain without hands," which shall never be destroyed or left to other people", as Daniel prophesied!! People may leave the church through apostasy, and even form another church because they feel "offended" as Christ stated, or perhaps for another reason, but they do so to their own damnation! One chief reason, that I have observed, which leads to apostasy is one being lifted up in the pride of his own wisdom and learning, and then he finally decides that he knows more that the prophets and apostles who God has given the charge to lead his church!

+1 you are dead on gdemetz

gdemetz wrote:There is apostasy outside the church, if you want to call it that, there is some apostasy within the church, but the church itself, namely the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, of which Joseph Smith helped set up and named by revelation, will never go into apostasy!!! This church is the "little stone cut out of the mountain without hands," which shall never be destroyed or left to other people", as Daniel prophesied!! People may leave the church through apostasy, and even form another church because they feel "offended" as Christ stated, or perhaps for another reason, but they do so to their own damnation! One chief reason, that I have observed, which leads to apostasy is one being lifted up in the pride of his own wisdom and learning, and then he finally decides that he knows more that the prophets and apostles who God has given the charge to lead his church!

D&C 64:33-43