Repentance

[AshleyB]

Ok, so lately my mind is focused on Repentance. All day long when Im cleaning, or cooking, or taking care of, or playing with the kids, or at the grocery store, or basically anything my mind is consumed with eternal things. And specifically lately repentance. I have a few questions for you intelligent people on this forum. I am hoping lots will participate because this topic is really important. But, my question is how do you know you are repenting enough and should you/ what should you be doing in order to get to the point to where you Hear the voice of the shepherd tell you that you have been forgiven of your sins? Lately, I cant stop thinking that unless a specific event happens where I am told that I am forgiven that I wont feel satisfied.

Also, on the same subject, in my last gospel doctrines class last Sunday we were talking about sanctification and justification and naturally we talked a lot about repentance. We have an excellent teacher and I really like his lessons. However there was one thing that bugged me a little. He talked about Baptism and about the fact that after he received his and we receive it we are sinless for a certain amount of time etc, etc. Everyone was talking about this and I had this nagging feeling that what he as teaching wasn't exactly correct. But I stayed quiet and didn't say anything. I try to keep a low profile and I don't like to correct people even if I KNOW I'm right. I just feel like its not my place. But as Iv'e studied Iv'e come to the understanding that Baptism is an outward ordinance and invitation but the ordinance does not just automatically = forgiveness of sins the way a lot of people seem to think. In my own studies Ive come to believe that probably like 90 percent of the time the event of being forgiven of your sins does not necessarily happen the same time as the ordinance. Just like with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, you receive the conferral but it doesn't necessarily mean you receive the Gift right then. It all depends on personal righteousness and the ordination must be ratified by Heaven and although they could happen at the same time like when Christ was baptized that it usually doesnt. Yet, in class discussions everyone always talks about it like they are one in the same. Like the ordinances are the end. And not the means to an end.

John Pontius and Denver Snuffer helped me to understand that. I may even have read something about that in one of Nibley's books but I'm not sure. I felt like I had been hit over the head when that revelation came and I couldn't believe that I never thought of it on my own because once I read about it, it seemed so obvious. But no one ever talks about it that way. And I believe that is correct. Or that is what I have felt in my prayers about it.

This brings me to my next questions. Baptism by fire. Is Baptism by Fire that actual ratification by Heaven of your Baptism ordinance? Is that what baptism by fire is? That is where my mind has been leading me but then I think about Calling and Election as well but my current understanding is that Calling and Election is different and would be an event that would occur after Baptism By Fire which is the forgiveness of your sins. But Calling and Election means you have been proven faithful in all things and you are essentially guaranteed a spot in the Celestial Kingdom. Then I assume the Holy anointing from the Lord would occur after that if you continued in righteousness but perhaps the anointing and callling and election could be switched? Not sure on that really. Ive also been thinking about Hope. Faith, Hope, and Charity. First we have Faith which leads to Hope. Hope is knowing that your sins and death are swallowed up in Christ but you would only truly have this hope if you KNEW your sins were forgiven. Otherwise your mind would be weary and you would worry. Then that Hope leads to Charity I guess. Anyway, what are your thoughts on repentance and the process? I will take all the insight into this subject I can get. Thanks!

[Original_Intent]

I think that Baptism by Fire is the First Comforter, and Calling and Election made sure is the Second Comforter. I wonder how many are seeking the Second Comforter that have not yet received the First Comforter?!

I know that when I was baptised at 8 that I did feel completely cleansed of any wrong doing that I had ever committed. I think that if a person has properly prepared for baptism and is not just "doing it" that a complete cleansing does occur. They still need the baptism by fire, but I would agree with your instructor that you are cleansed and I would SPECULATE that for a period that Satan is bound or restrained from influencing you. That is 100% a personal opinion, I have no scripture of prophetic utterance to back it up.

Interesting that you then mention Faith, Hope and Charity. I wonder if there is a correlation with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd comforters?

I, like you, hope that many give their insights on this subject.

On the subject of repentance, I think that many of us get hung up on the remorse portion of repentance. I know I at least feel that I must "suffer" a certain amount. This reminds me of a talk that a General Authority gave and he mentioned a bishop that said he felt that an excommunicated man was ready to be rebaptized and said that "he had suffered enough". The General Authority then gently taught the bishop that the suffering for the sin had already been done in Gethsemane. Feeling remorse for sinning is appropriate of course, but I feel that the critical step of repentance is bringing your life into alignment with God's will. As you focus on learning God's will for you and constantly striving to adhere to that will - that in my mind is continual repentance, it is not constantly beating yourself up for your failings, it is the constant course correction that is most important. My opinion.

[Like]

Many years ago in a Stake Priesthood Meeting in Idaho, I heard Bruce R. McConkie ask this question. “How can you tell if you are living a life that is acceptable to God? How can you tell if you have been forgiven for a past sin you have been working to repent of?” His answer was simply this. If you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life – if you are receiving personal revelation, if you receive answers to your prayers, then you are in the straight and narrow way, and your sins are forgiven, because the Holy Spirit does not dwell in unholy people.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:22-23)

[AshleyB]

Wow, thanks for the replies. Those have helped me a lot already. Thanks.

[AshleyB]

The Second Comforter


The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest,
and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person
has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the
remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying
on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue
to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after
righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will
soon say to him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has
thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to
serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and
his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive
the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is
recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from
the 12th to the 27th verses.
[Joseph quotes verses 16, 17, 18, 21, & 23 and then
continues:]
Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than
the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of
the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he
will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear
unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father
unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the
visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will
teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the
mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place
the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious
visions---Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul
in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with
the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.


Calling and Election

Now, there is some grand secret here, and keys to unlock the
subject. Notwithstanding the apostle exhorts them to add to their
faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc., yet he exhorts them to
make their calling and election sure. And though they had heard an
audible voice from heaven bearing testimony that Jesus was the Son
of God, yet he says we have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto
ye do well that ye take heed as unto.a light shining in a dark
place. Now, wherein could they have a more sure word of prophecy
than to hear the voice of God saying, This is my beloved Son.
Now for the secret and grand key. Though they might hear the
voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be
no evidence that their election and calling was made sure, that
they had part with Christ, and were joint heirs with him. They then
would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed
in the heaven and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of
God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor
to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and
lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick
around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every
hour of trial, trouble and tribulation. Then knowledge through our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the
glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. . . .
Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God
until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by
obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for
the promise until you obtain it. (Pp 298-299)
The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing that he
is sealed up unto eternal life by revelation and the spirit of
prophecy, through the power of the holy priesthood. It is
impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance. Paul saw the third
heavens, and I more. (p. 301)

Calling and Election to be Made Sure

Contend earnestly for the like precious faith with the Apostle
Peter, "and add to your faith virtue," knowledge, temperance,
patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity; "for if these
things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither
be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus
Christ." Another point, after having all these qualification,.he
lays this injunction upon the people "to make your calling and
election sure." He is emphatic upon this subject---after adding all
this virtue, knowledge, etc., "Make your calling and election
sure." What is the secret---the starting point? "According as His
divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life
and godliness." How did he obtain all things? Through the knowledge
of Him who hath called him. There could not anything be given,
pertaining to life and godliness, without knowledge. Woe! woe! woe
to Christendom!---especially the divines and priests if this be
true.
Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for
until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of
the priesthood alone will do this.
The design of the great God in sending us into this world, and
organizing us to prepare us for the eternal worlds, I shall keep in
my own bosom at present.
We have no claim in our eternal compact, in relation to
eternal things, unless our actions and contracts and all things
tend to this. But after all this, you have got to make your calling
and election sure. If this injunction would lie largely on those to
whom it was spoken, how much more those of the present generation!
1st key: knowledge is the power of salvation. 2nd key: Make
your calling and election sure. 3rd key: It is one thing to be on
the mount and hear the excellent voice, etc., and another to hear
the voice declare to you, You have a part and lot in that
kingdom. (pp. 305-306)


20. History of the Church, 5:392-393; Wednesday, May 17, 1843.

Wednesday, 17.---Partook of breakfast at Brother Perkins;
after which we took a pleasure ride through Fountain Green.
At ten a.m. preached from 2nd Peter, 1st chapter and showed
that knowledge is power; and the man who has the most knowledge has
the greatest power.
"Salvation means a man's being placed beyond the power of all
his enemies. The more sure word of prophecy means a man's knowing
that he is sealed up unto eternal life by revelation and the spirit
of prophecy, through the power of the holy priesthood. It is
impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.
Paul saw the third heavens, and I more. Peter penned the most
sublime language of any of the apostles."
In the afternoon attended council, and afterwards rode with
Benjamin F. Johnson's family.

[Steve Clark]

Good replies. I agree that the baptism by fire is the 1st comforter. I also have had my mind focusing on receiving the 2nd comforter, but I definitely have a way to go before I receive the 1st.

I have had great moments in my past where the spirit has been very strong. I have gone through repentance for things and know what it feels like to truly be forgiven, but I have yet to feel like I have the presence of the Holy Ghost in my life as is described in 2 Nephi Ch. 32.

I was teaching our Elders Quorum lessen a couple months ago about temples. We talked about how the ordinances need to be ratified by the spirit to have any affect. I was surprised by the number of people who seemed to not be aware of this. I asked if it were possible for someone to be baptized and NOT receive a remission of their sins. It looked like nobody had ever even thought of that. Seems pretty straight forward to me... Baptism for a remission of sins is conditional upon repentance. If you haven't repented and met the conditions, you do not get the promised remission of sins.

[AshleyB]

I think its good to be focused on the 2nd comforter even if you haven't received the first because seeking the Lord should be the goal. And if we are truly focused on Christ the other steps will happen along the way. I definitely think it helps to try and educate yourself on the process and how it works. For me, I was baptized when I was 20 only a few months before my 21st birthday. I was definitely repenting of my sins and I had been feeling sorrow for things that I had done before but Im still not sure if I fully understood what I was undertaking. So it really makes me wonder about how different the experience would be as an 8 year old. This is probably in large part why baptism by fire is a separate event. I have definitely felt the godly sorrow for past events and I don't really feel guilty for those things now. My guilt has been swept away for those things, though sometimes I do think about it and wish I had known better. But it is what it is. What is important is where I am now. For some reason when I think about repentance Enos always pops in my head. Iv'e gone back and read Enos over and over but I'm still not sure what the Lord is trying to tell me. That book is pretty short. I recently saw that Denver wrote a whole book on Enos. I have never read it but I have felt that I should because Heavenly Father has been trying to teach me something through that book that I don't think I have ever fully understood.

[reese]

One of my favorite quotes on repentance comes from......


wait for it......wait for it...you guessed it

Denver Snuffer.

He said:

You probably think your errors are more serious an impediment to God accepting you than He ever has. He doesn't want to judge you, He wants to heal you. He wants to give you what you lack, teach you to be better and to bless you. He doesn't want to belittle, demean or punish you. Ask Him to forgive and He forgives. Even very serious sins. He does not want you burdened with them. He wants you to leave them behind.

His willingness to leave those errors in the past and remember them no more is greater than you can imagine. It is a guiding principle for the Atonement. Asking for forgiveness is almost all that is required to be forgiven.

What alienates us from Him is not our sins. He will forgive them. What we lack is the confidence to ask in faith, nothing doubting, for His help. He can and will help when you do so.

I think we mormons focus way to much on "works" and understand very little about Christ's grace.