"Prove all things" by the scriptures

[Amore Vero]

Joseph Smith knew that many of the Saints in the Church were being deceived by false doctrines being taught by many men & even by some Apostles in Nauvoo. Thus he warned the Saints, then & now, to never accept any teaching or doctrine that was not in harmony with or that contradicted the Holy Scriptures of his day (the 1844 editions).

"If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches."
Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844.

Joseph also taught that angels & personages could try to deceive us & said that we can know they are false if they ever contradict former revelation.

"Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214.

Thus he tells us how we can tell 'true' angels & Prophets from 'false' ones, for they will never contradict former revelation.

For truth is always harmonious with itself, & never contradicts itself. God is & says the same things yesterday, today & forever.

The Holy Scriptures are the 'standard' to discern true Prophets from false Prophets. Everything true Prophets teach will always square with the scriptures & will never contradict them. If they do, then that is how we know they or their teachings are false.

Paul in ancient times also warned the Saints to 'prove all things' & hold fast to that which is good." (Thess. 5:21)

It is our responsibility to prove the truth of everything anyone says, no matter what position they may hold, by judging anyone's teachings by what the Holy Scriptures teach. For even some Prophets & Apostles throughout history have at times taught false doctrines & contradicted each other many times with opposing doctrines, thus only 'the scriptures' can prove who's opinions & teachings are right.

"It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read & write."
Elder Harold B. Lee, To Seminary & Institute of Religion Faculty, July 1964. DCSM :144

"Six of the original apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested as explanation, too, when he stated, "Perhaps it is how own design that faults & weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him & not in any man or men."
Quoted by Ezra T. Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 290., Millennial Star 53:658, Feb. 15, 1891.

[firend]

Joseph Smith knew that many of the Saints in the Church were being deceived by false doctrines being taught by many men & even by some Apostles in Nauvoo. Thus he warned the Saints, then & now, to never accept any teaching or doctrine that was not in harmony with or that contradicted the Holy Scriptures of his day (the 1844 editions).

"If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches."
Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844.

Joseph also taught that angels & personages could try to deceive us & said that we can know they are false if they ever contradict former revelation.

"Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214.

Thus he tells us how we can tell 'true' angels & Prophets from 'false' ones, for they will never contradict former revelation.

For truth is always harmonious with itself, & never contradicts itself. God is & says the same things yesterday, today & forever.

The Holy Scriptures are the 'standard' to discern true Prophets from false Prophets. Everything true Prophets teach will always square with the scriptures & will never contradict them. If they do, then that is how we know they or their teachings are false.

Paul in ancient times also warned the Saints to 'prove all things' & hold fast to that which is good." (Thess. 5:21)

It is our responsibility to prove the truth of everything anyone says, no matter what position they may hold, by judging anyone's teachings by what the Holy Scriptures teach. For even some Prophets & Apostles throughout history have at times taught false doctrines & contradicted each other many times with opposing doctrines, thus only 'the scriptures' can prove who's opinions & teachings are right.

"It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read & write."
Elder Harold B. Lee, To Seminary & Institute of Religion Faculty, July 1964. DCSM :144

"Six of the original apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested as explanation, too, when he stated, "Perhaps it is how own design that faults & weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him & not in any man or men."
Quoted by Ezra T. Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 290., Millennial Star 53:658, Feb. 15, 1891.

+1

[AshleyB]

Excellent. This is a good topic.

[NoGreaterLove]

The prophet has authority to create new scriptures and interpret current ones.

[sbsion]

if that was true "then" could it not be true today?...........why is there going to be a seperation? suggest we prove all things by the spirit, not a personal interpretation of the scriptures?

[NoGreaterLove]

if that was true "then" could it not be true today?...........why is there going to be a seperation? suggest we prove all things by the spirit, not a personal interpretation of the scriptures?

Or better yet. Prove all things by the Spirits interpretation of the scriptures as it moves in your heart and mind.

[SpeedRacer]

Everywhere you turn there are the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture. Wrest not the scriptures to your destruction.

Justifying your position on something against what is taught by an ordained apostle because you feel, in your extremely limited understanding, that it is not in harmony with the revealed standard works, is narrow and short sighted. Your ways are not his ways, nor your thoughts his. His are above yours. You may find that many scriptures, while they seem plain to you, may have drastically different meanings when further light is shed. This goes for what is said by apostles and prophets as the word of the Lord.

[Amore Vero]

The prophet has authority to create new scriptures and interpret current ones.

I agree, a Prophet can expound scripture even further & give us new insights, but it's just that Prophets can't teach anything that 'contradicts' former scripture.

For that's how Joseph warned us how to identify false Prophets or false angels or false statements by anyone, by their contradicting former scripture.

[sbsion]

all of us have a right to "further light and knowledge through the veil".........do it

[Rand]

Joseph Smith knew that many of the Saints in the Church were being deceived by false doctrines being taught by many men & even by some Apostles in Nauvoo. Thus he warned the Saints, then & now, to never accept any teaching or doctrine that was not in harmony with or that contradicted the Holy Scriptures of his day (the 1844 editions).

"If any man preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine & Covenants, set him down as an imposter... Try them by the principles contained in the acknowledged word of God; if they preach, or teach, or practice contrary to that, disfellowship them; cut them off from among you as useless and dangerous branches."
Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 5:490-491, April, 1, 1844.

Joseph also taught that angels & personages could try to deceive us & said that we can know they are false if they ever contradict former revelation.

"Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false. How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214.

Thus he tells us how we can tell 'true' angels & Prophets from 'false' ones, for they will never contradict former revelation.

For truth is always harmonious with itself, & never contradicts itself. God is & says the same things yesterday, today & forever.

The Holy Scriptures are the 'standard' to discern true Prophets from false Prophets. Everything true Prophets teach will always square with the scriptures & will never contradict them. If they do, then that is how we know they or their teachings are false.

Paul in ancient times also warned the Saints to 'prove all things' & hold fast to that which is good." (Thess. 5:21)

It is our responsibility to prove the truth of everything anyone says, no matter what position they may hold, by judging anyone's teachings by what the Holy Scriptures teach. For even some Prophets & Apostles throughout history have at times taught false doctrines & contradicted each other many times with opposing doctrines, thus only 'the scriptures' can prove who's opinions & teachings are right.

"It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they read & write."
Elder Harold B. Lee, To Seminary & Institute of Religion Faculty, July 1964. DCSM :144

"Six of the original apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested as explanation, too, when he stated, "Perhaps it is how own design that faults & weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him & not in any man or men."
Quoted by Ezra T. Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 290., Millennial Star 53:658, Feb. 15, 1891.

Therefore what? Why are you emphasizing this? You are trying to make a point about our current church leadership?

[Amore Vero]

Therefore what? Why are you emphasizing this? You are trying to make a point about our current church leadership?

I believe it's vital to follow Joseph Smith's warning to learn how to judge (by comparing it to the scriptures) any & all teaching or doctrine that anyone might teach, so that we can tell false doctrine from true doctrine & false teachers from true ones, for we are warned over & over today to not be deceived & that there are alot of false teachings going around today. So it just seems to me this is vital to understand.

For Joseph certainly saw what happens when members don't do this & how easily they can be deceived.

Also, I was questioned in another thread about why I would ask for or need 'scriptural backing' for the doctrine of succession in the Church. Which would be because Joseph told us to get that & Paul told us to prove all things.

Thus, I was just wondering that & would like to know what Joseph Smith taught about who should follow him after he died. For surely Joseph would have taught what to do after he died, but I'm still searching for it.

For according to Joseph, all doctrine & teachings from any Prophet or Apostle that came after him, would have to teach in harmony with everything Joseph taught.

[gruden2.0]

The prophet has authority to create new scriptures and interpret current ones.

Anyone inspired by the Holy Ghost can write scripture. Patriarchal Blessings are scripture. The issue is cannonized scripture. Church leadership can select scriptural items for cannonization and approved by the general church body by common consent.

[Original_Intent]

Something here is screaming to be emphasized.

The teaching is that if anyone teaches anything that is CONTRARY to existing scripture, you can reject it.

And yet, I see many, many people, when confronted with a doctrine they don't care for, say "Show me in the scripture where it says that!" and if it cannot be found they take that as supporting the view that it can be rejected as false doctrine.

That clearly isn't what was taught - the burden of proof for doctrine taught by modern prophets is upon the person who would not follow it, and to find scripture contradicting it.

And so much in scripture can be taken multiple ways based on interpretation. So I would say the burden is further, that the scripture in unequivocable language contradicts the modern teaching. My two bits.

[gdemetz]

So true, and Joseph Smith even referred to himself as an example! Even some prophets and apostles have made incorrect statements contrary to scriptures, although it is true that the Lord would not let those lead to the destruction of His people. It it were that serious, then He would remove the prophet himself.

[MelissaM]

So true, and Joseph Smith even referred to himself as an example! Even some prophets and apostles have made incorrect statements contrary to scriptures, although it is true that the Lord would not let those lead to the destruction of His people. It it were that serious, then He would remove the prophet himself.

This idea is confusing to me. I thought according to 2 Nephi 4, and 2 Nephi 28, we are not to trust in the arm of flesh. Of course as LDS we tend to not apply 2 Nephi 28 to ourselves.

[Fairminded]

An excellent example of this, from way back during the early days of the Church, was John C. Bennett and his "spiritual wifery". When Joseph Smith first began practicing the law of polygamy and eternal marriage Bennett was fairly high up in the councils of the brotherhood, an assistant to the First Presidency I believe. When he caught wind of polygamy and eternal marriage he began using it for his own ends, going around to young women on the eve or morning of their wedding.

He would approach the young women in secret, "revealing" a distorted form of the law of polygamy wherein the women would marry their husbands as normal, but in secret they would be Bennett's eternal wife. He used the technique to defile the marriage beds of many innocent trusting souls before his actions were found out.

If his actions weren't despicable enough, they also cast doubt on the doctrine of polygamy and greatly increased the persecution the early saints suffered. They likely also played a part in stirring up the mob against Joseph Smith and ultimately leading to his death.

It's good to trust the general authorities as speaking with the inspiration of God, but we can't just shut off our minds. If even the very elect can be deceived, proving all things by the scriptures is a safe and fairly sensible precaution.

Now where the First Presidency of the Church introduces new revelation, as has been mentioned in other posts, it's not quite so simple. I suppose there it comes down to faith and personal prayer and guidance by the Holy Ghost.

[Rand]

So true, and Joseph Smith even referred to himself as an example! Even some prophets and apostles have made incorrect statements contrary to scriptures, although it is true that the Lord would not let those lead to the destruction of His people. It it were that serious, then He would remove the prophet himself.

This idea is confusing to me. I thought according to 2 Nephi 4, and 2 Nephi 28, we are not to trust in the arm of flesh. Of course as LDS we tend to not apply 2 Nephi 28 to ourselves.

Welcome Melissa. I agree with your point. It might be expanded with the notion that is expressed in the 1st section of the DC is "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servant it is the same." If it is the Lords chosen spokesman, it is not to be considered the arm of the flesh. Thoughts?

[MelissaM]

My first thought is that most, if not all, Book of Mormon believing sects claim some form of authoratative divine priesthood lineage.

I think that a very careful reading of the first 37 verses of Doctrine and Covenants section 1 as a preparation for the last 2 verses is extremely important. Having knowledge of who specifically the Lord is speaking of as his servants in this particular section and not globalizing the last 2 verses is really important too.

Do we believe because we have always been told "This is this and that is that and we have all the answers." or because we have diligently sought it out and believe it for ourselves?

[gdemetz]

Melissa, you mentioned other sects of Mormons and their claim to some line of priesthood authority. However, I contend that they don't really have a leg to stand on. Joseph Smith established the restored church of Jesus Christ, and I believe that these other groups would acknowledge that. This is the same church which Daniel prophesied that would never be destroyed or left to other people. Furthermore, Joseph Smith also received by revelation what the name of this church would be, and that is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints." Some people in these other groups claim higher knowledge and revelations which are contrary to the scriptures, but that is only their misguided claims. Sadly, there are some members in the church that go against what the scriptures teach, as well as what the prophets and apostles in the church have stated, because they claim also to have higher knowledge and revelations, but that is all it is; claims. This is exactly what Joseph Smith warned about.

[MelissaM]

Of course Christ named the Church. Says it right there in Doctrine and Covenants 115, unless you are looking at the 1844 edition which doesn't have that section.

What scriptural evidences and support pointing to a specific church rather than a kingdom are there about Daniel 2? I'm not interested in anything other than canonized scripture regardless of Church history or commentary -sincere question looking for a second witness with the same prophecy and the same interpretation of a Church rather than the actual words which state: Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

All claims of authority came in after Joseph and Hyrum Smith's martyrdoms. How much assurance do LDS have that "authority" rests within the church? The larger question for me is "Do I believe because I have a witness of the Spirit or because I was born and raised and accepted what I was taught without putting it to any test of scripture or Spirit?" We are to develop ourselves spiritually through following the Spirit (1 Nephi as a template) and not simply trust flesh regardless of "calling" or insistant voice.

Right now, I need to immerse myself in the scriptures and sort through God's plan without all of the extra commentary. I'm just going to read the words of the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 3, 2 Nephi 27) without primary, seminary, institute, or any other commentary no matter how well intentioned or how much I emotionally connect with it added to the scriptures. This quote from Joseph Smith helps me to have a marker and a touchstone.

[gdemetz]

Melissa, the terms kingdom and church mean almost the same thing (the kingdom having provisions for non members through it's authority or keys). Notice in D&C 42:69 it states:

"Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given. Even so, Amen."

[Gideon]

Right now, I need to immerse myself in the scriptures and sort through God's plan without all of the extra commentary. I'm just going to read the words of the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 3, 2 Nephi 27) without primary, seminary, institute, or any other commentary no matter how well intentioned or how much I emotionally connect with it added to the scriptures. This quote from Joseph Smith helps me to have a marker and a touchstone.

That is how I came into the church. I read the Book of Mormon, on my own, without any influence or explanations from anyone. Pure Heavenly truth flowed into me and changed my heart and my life. That was 37 years ago, and the effects continue.

As Joseph Smith said:
"Could we read and comprehend all that has been written from the days of Adam, on the relation of man to God and angels in a future state, we should know very little about it. Reading the experience of others, or the revelation given to them, can never give us a comprehensive view of our condition and true relation to God. "

We have to know for ourselves.

[chase]

Melissa, the terms kingdom and church mean almost the same thing (the kingdom having provisions for non members through it's authority or keys). Notice in D&C 42:69 it states:

"Lift up your hearts and rejoice, for unto you the kingdom, or in other words, the keys of the church have been given. Even so, Amen."

Yet the "kingdom" as Joseph defined it (the quorum of 50) does not exist anymore. We let it go by the wayside. Granted, the revelation in Section 42 was given before its organization, yet it was clearly known as the kingdom of God by Joseph and its members. I think this scripture applied when it was given. I don't know for sure, but I doubt that it applies to us today. Not all scriptures traverse time, and not all scriptures apply to us that applied to Joseph.

[gdemetz]

I don't think that it is dead, just dormant. It will need to be revived later when the saints reign to provide for the non members.

[chase]

I see where you're coming from gdemetz, but I think it disappeared because of neglect and because of a misunderstanding of what it was. After the death of Joseph, what was supposed to be something great and fundamental to the establishment of Zion became an infrequent administrative council. It became obsolete with the establishment of other church programs, and its importance became less and less emphasized and less and less recognized. From what I've read of it, the history suggests that it wasn't a purposeful hibernation of the council but rather a gradual death of it. Perhaps it will again emerge in the near future, but I suspect that it would require some degree of restoration.