Joseph and Masonry [Question for gkearney]

[iamse7en]

gkearney (or anyone else very familiar with Masonic history, legend, culture, etc, etc), have you listened to the Mormonism and Masonry series at Mormon Expression? They are non/ex-believers, make some very wild claims, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on some of the claims. It's a long series, so I don't expect you to answer back for quite some time. Take your time. Here are the links.

Part 1a: Masonry Background
Part 1b
Part 2a: Vermont, Ohio, Missouri
Part 2b
Part 3: Nauvoo
Part 4: Martyrdom and Utah

[gkearney]

Coul you cite some of the claims rather than make me wade into hour of anti Mormon claptrap.

[iamse7en]

To clarify, the guest (George Miller) is a practicing,'believing' Mormon. The host is an ex. I can't even remember all the claims... You may find it interesting. I was being too harsh by making it sound like anti-Mormon diatribe. Some of it is interesting conversation, but some things sounded ridiculous. Have you read Antiquities of Freemasonry by George Oliver? He makes the claim that much of Joseph's philosophy, biblical revisionism (e.g. Book of Abraham) comes from that book.

[Mahonri]

I tried to make it through that, but they were claiming every aspect of Mormonism, even things that can be found in the, were from Masonry. I found this episode to be even worse than normal.

Modern Prophets say that the Temple is "true" Masonry and that Masonry of today is apostate. That's good enough for me

[iamse7en]

Mahonri, do you also torture yourself through Mormon Expression podcasts? I just can't help myself sometimes. Luckily, I always listen to these on my iPhone at 2x speed, so I only waste half the time I could.

[Mahonri]

Mahonri, do you also torture yourself through Mormon Expression podcasts? I just can't help myself sometimes. Luckily, I always listen to these on my iPhone at 2x speed, so I only waste half the time I could.

Not any more. They are simply too toxic for my taste. For my dose of NOM nonsense, I tune in to mormon stories if it doesn't sound too disgusting an approach to an interesting topic.

[iamse7en]

I like the format/idea: have 3-5 people discuss a topic on Mormonism, who are all prepared to dig into it and share interesting things - I just wish the 3-5 people had the Spirit and weren't smooth-talking atheists like Korihor. It's a shame there isn't one like Mormon Expression, but with stalwart believers.

By the way gkearney, I listened to your interview with Mormon Stories for the first time the other day. I know that was years ago, but it was interesting.

[Ben McClintock]

I like the format/idea: have 3-5 people discuss a topic on Mormonism, who are all prepared to dig into it and share interesting things - I just wish the 3-5 people had the Spirit and weren't smooth-talking atheists like Korihor. It's a shame there isn't one like Mormon Expression, but with stalwart believers.

By the way gkearney, I listened to your interview with Mormon Stories for the first time the other day. I know that was years ago, but it was interesting.

( ( no podcast on these topics from a believers?? What about The Mormon Chronicle? http://www.mormonchronicle.com/mormons-and-masons/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; In a few more episodes, it will have a panel discussion on some hard hitting current event topics. But for now you have it hosted by LDSFF's own Brian M. as well as Ezra Taylor! :ymparty:

[LukeAir2008]

To clarify, the guest (George Miller) is a practicing,'believing' Mormon. The host is an ex. I can't even remember all the claims... You may find it interesting. I was being too harsh by making it sound like anti-Mormon diatribe. Some of it is interesting conversation, but some things sounded ridiculous. Have you read Antiquities of Freemasonry by George Oliver? He makes the claim that much of Joseph's philosophy, biblical revisionism (e.g. Book of Abraham) comes from that book.

Its interesting that masonic historians Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight in their book 'the Hyrum Key' specifically state that the Templars/Freemasons got their ceremonies from information and artefacts that they discovered when the Templars excavated the Jerusalem Temple under Hugh de Payens.

So you could say that the Masons stole their ceremonies from us - not the other way around.

[gkearney]

OK I went through the recordings, not as bad as I had first figured they would be. That said I think they extend the connections out to impossible reach on occasion. Everything did not come from Freemasonry and making the point that it does weakens the case for those elements which likely did. I think they stretch the thesis beyond the point that it can reasonably be done so.

Lomas and Knight make a claim in the Hyrum Key' which is not supported by any historical evidence. There is no historical evidence to connect Freemasonry with the temple of antiquity. There is also no evidence to connect the modern LDS endowment rituals to the temple of antiquity. The endowment rituals are an ever changing ritual that speak to modern members of the Church. They have changed considerably even with in my lifetime.

[Mahonri]

There is also no evidence to connect the modern LDS endowment rituals to the temple of antiquity. The endowment rituals are an ever changing ritual that speak to modern members of the Church.

There is no evidence for the first vision either. The prophet said it was the ancient endowment restored, good enough for me.

They have changed considerably even with in my lifetime.

As the Lord as well as ancient prophets said it would

[gkearney]

One should remember that I draw a distinction between the endowment ritual or hoe the endowment is presented and the endowment itself.

[iamse7en]

OK I went through the recordings, not as bad as I had first figured they would be. That said I think they extend the connections out to impossible reach on occasion. Everything did not come from Freemasonry and making the point that it does weakens the case for those elements which likely did. I think they stretch the thesis beyond the point that it can reasonably be done so.

Greg, thanks for going through those. I found some things interesting, but yes, my feeling was that Miller made IMPOSSIBLE extrapolations of logic based on no evidence. He tried to make it out that Joseph was some genius who sat in a library all day and deciphered how to make the perfect religion based on the hundreds of books he read on ancient Masonic, Egyptian, and Hebrew philosophy.... or... maybe he was a genius because the had the Spirit of the Lord and angelic visitations, and he revealed many important keys that were previously unknown or lost to apostasy? I had never heard the claim before that he got much of the Book of Abraham from Oliver's Antiquities of Freemasonry. Have you read that book?

[LukeAir2008]

OK I went through the recordings, not as bad as I had first figured they would be. That said I think they extend the connections out to impossible reach on occasion. Everything did not come from Freemasonry and making the point that it does weakens the case for those elements which likely did. I think they stretch the thesis beyond the point that it can reasonably be done so.

Lomas and Knight make a claim in the Hyrum Key' which is not supported by any historical evidence. There is no historical evidence to connect Freemasonry with the temple of antiquity. There is also no evidence to connect the modern LDS endowment rituals to the temple of antiquity. The endowment rituals are an ever changing ritual that speak to modern members of the Church. They have changed considerably even with in my lifetime.

You may choose to reject that idea but its pretty much well established that the Templars excavated the Jerusalem Temple around 1118 to 1128. Do you think freemasons just correctly guessed ceremonies and symbols that the Prophet of the Lord says are similar to those from the Holy Temple? Its all about testimony isn't it?

[durangout]

One should remember that I draw a distinction between the endowment ritual or hoe the endowment is presented and the endowment itself.

I think I understand what you're saying. I almost jumped all over you going into a rant about how you can clearly find parts of the endowment throughout the scriptures (Old/New Testaments and BoM) IF you know where to look It's painfully obvious that JS didin't make up this stuff.