The Church and Zion

[Matthew.B]

I didn't want to derail another thread any further than it already has, so I'm reposting something here and issuing a challenge to everyone, which I'm sure you'll be able to meet:

What is factually wrong with any part of the following statement (anything that is not opinion or a guess), originally found here?

... From the remarks of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and how the Church's situation evolved from the time of its establishment to the Manifesto and onwards, it's apparent that the only position the Church could ever openly fight against the Beast and Whore is from within the safety of the political state of Zion, complete with borders and army (as needed).

The Manifesto was the sign that, for whatever reason, the Church was going to submit to Babylon for the time being. Until Zion is established, I doubt that pattern will be changed. Even the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson was quieted before his Presidency because of the necessities of the situation.

For whatever reason, the Church leadership has had to capitulate more and more to Babylon since being inducted into the Union (with the Manifesto being the flagship event there). I doubt that pattern will change until the power of the Gadiantons are broken enough for Zion to have a fighting chance to emerge.

Can anyone else say, "I can't wait for the Cleansing of America"?

And I do believe, with my whole heart, that President Thomas S. Monson is the rightful leader and prophet to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to which the keys to establishing Zion were given and where I believe they still remain, with the First Presidency.

[Ben McClintock]

perhaps this will help http://www.mormonchronicle.com/sacred-c ... om-of-god/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it documents the statements on this matter and how the Kingdom of God and the Church are two separate organizations, and not just in the abstract, but literally. So far as to there actually being people in leadership positions in the Kingdom that are not even members of the Church.

[Henmasher]

I find that this can be coorelated to Moses and Israel. Why did they get the lesser law and had to suffer? It was not Moses bowing down and accepting idolatry. It was the people of Israel and their wickedness. So when you can't wait for the cleansing, you imply that you are part of the small portion that is worthy of surviving such a cleansing. I.e the sons of Levi that took the stand. Kinda arrogant since the line is not visible for us, but you have a good mind to see truth be served. The will of God in all this is just one of many more variables as to why calling upon judgements is unrighteouss. For the angels called for them as they were worthy of surviving and justified in doing so. Maybe our prayer should be for the unrighteouss to be blinded to their wickedness, say like with Elijah, he very well had angels with swords drawn ready to reap judgement but rather he chose to sway them to avoid destruction. Do we suppose that we are worthy to bring judgement upon the wicked and that we are spotless and cleansed from the blood of our generation. I think we should cry repentance to the wicked rather than hurry their destruction. I choose saving as many as possible rather than destroying the apparent wicked.

Who here doesn't have a family member they would love for the spirit to touch and save while their is time?

Who wouldn't want five more minutes to get ready for Christs coming?

I stand to say the church is giving all of us a chance to repent, not bending to godless evil men.

[Ben McClintock]

not that I disagree with your sentiment Hen, just wondering if that was meant for a different thread?

[Matthew.B]

perhaps this will help http://www.mormonchronicle.com/sacred-c ... om-of-god/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it documents the statements on this matter and how the Kingdom of God and the Church are two separate organizations, and not just in the abstract, but literally. So far as to there actually being people in leadership positions in the Kingdom that are not even members of the Church.

Exactly. That is one of the keys to understanding the relationship between Zion and the Church.

IMO, when a living dispensation (the Church) exists within Babylon, the true and eternal Church of the Firstborn must be hidden and kept from the knowledge and eyes of the world. Therefore, God establishes dispensations through servants who seek to build up Zion, which is God's true form of earthly government, which is patterned after His eternal kingdom. When Zion is established, God Himself can dwell amongst the people (!) in their city and can appear to them frequently in public, outside the temple! In Zion, therefore, the Church is in fact the no-longer-hidden Church of the Firstborn.

Zion always grows out of a Church, which grows out of the world. Out of a Telestial organization (the world and Babylonian governments thereof) grows a Terrestrial organization (a Living Church), out of which grows (I think) a Celestial organization- ZION!

Okay, back to topic...

[Matthew.B]

I find that this can be coorelated to Moses and Israel. Why did they get the lesser law and had to suffer? It was not Moses bowing down and accepting idolatry. It was the people of Israel and their wickedness.

Exactly! Though from the teachings of Moses and the example of Enoch it was clear that, from the get-go, that one of the main goals was to establish a Zion, which acts as a safe haven from wicked Babylon and a refiner's fire for its humble occupants.

So when you can't wait for the cleansing, you imply that you are part of the small portion that is worthy of surviving such a cleansing.

I strive to be, and have received a promise from the Lord in my heart that I will not be cast off nor destroyed if I continue striving to do all I can to fulfill my particular mission in this life.

I.e the sons of Levi that took the stand. Kinda arrogant since the line is not visible for us, but you have a good mind to see truth be served.

Careful of who you accuse of pride, Henmasher.

I don't understand what you mean by the line "you hae a good mind to see truth be served". Care to elaborate?

[Nan]

I find it funny that every one gets in a tizzy when a new revelation comes from a prophet that changes something in the past. And yet we say we are led by a prophet of God. Which should mean we are open to new revelation. It actually reminds me of the pharisees and others at the time of Christ all upset at what he was preaching because it was "different". I wonder if the early saints had as much trouble about no longer living the law of moses as some of the people on here have because of no longer practicing polygamy. I wonder if some of them talked about the law of moses still being a higher law that people just couldn't handle living. I guess I just don't understand not recognizing that God is in charge and trusting him to know what he is doing and simply obeying the commandments we are given. Either we are led by a prophet or we are not. And if we are led by a prophet and they aren't doing what we think they should be doing, then we have to be the ones in the wrong.

[Henmasher]

I find that this can be coorelated to Moses and Israel. Why did they get the lesser law and had to suffer? It was not Moses bowing down and accepting idolatry. It was the people of Israel and their wickedness.

Exactly! Though from the teachings of Moses and the example of Enoch it was clear that, from the get-go, that one of the main goals was to establish a Zion, which acts as a safe haven from wicked Babylon and a refiner's fire for its humble occupants.

So when you can't wait for the cleansing, you imply that you are part of the small portion that is worthy of surviving such a cleansing.

I strive to be, and have received a promise from the Lord in my heart that I will not be cast off nor destroyed if I continue striving to do all I can to fulfill my particular mission in this life.

I.e the sons of Levi that took the stand. Kinda arrogant since the line is not visible for us, but you have a good mind to see truth be served.

Careful of who you accuse of pride, Henmasher.

I don't understand what you mean by the line "you hae a good mind to see truth be served". Care to elaborate?

What I am implying is that desiring for wickedness to cease and goodness reign is an admirable trait. It is a trait of the righteous. Abhoring the sin and wanting purety. You are right on track and you have a good heart. I am sorry if it seemed accusatory it was rather implied as watch our steps because I have even felt that I am ok if the judgements come and then something happens that I realize I have work to do. That promise you have recieved is awesome. I sometimes feel weak and do not feel secureity in my good works. None of this was meant as arrogant or accusatory. I am glad you started this thread. I feel this way in that I was not worthy of many things for a long while and had the judgements came I would have not born it well. I am grateful for the second chance God has given me and I choose to extend as many as possible to help all our siblings progress. My sympathy and emotion worte that response.

[Matthew.B]

What I am implying is that desiring for wickedness to cease and goodness reign is an admirable trait. It is a trait of the righteous. Abhoring the sin and wanting purety. You are right on track and you have a good heart. I am sorry if it seemed accusatory it was rather implied as watch our steps because I have even felt that I am ok if the judgements come and then something happens that I realize I have work to do.

It's all right. I understand how I can come off sometimes- I've been called an arrogant SOB more than once, lol. And I didn't mean to imply that I think I'm "ready and rarin' to go" for the Cleansing. Honestly, if it hits anywhere within the next 5-6 years, I'm in deeeeeep trouble (haven't been able to prepare temporally because of the course of my life and complex family issues). And, if I read the signs right, we'll be lucky if things don't start accelerating really fast within the next 2 years.

That promise you have recieved is awesome. I sometimes feel weak and do not feel secureity in my good works. None of this was meant as arrogant or accusatory. I am glad you started this thread. I feel this way in that I was not worthy of many things for a long while and had the judgements came I would have not born it well. I am grateful for the second chance God has given me and I choose to extend as many as possible to help all our siblings progress. My sympathy and emotion worte that response.

I don't feel qualifiied to counsel you at all because I feel the same way you do, but one thing that has helped me is to learn how to put all my inadequacy on Christ and count in His mercy. I'll never be able to do enough good works to make up for my shortcomings or even, in some ways, to justify and sustain my daily existence on this Telestial planet. But, I know in whom I have trusted.

:ymhug:

[Matthew.B]

Returning to the original post:

Does anyone see anything wrong with what I've written in the first post? I am open to learning more and adjusting my view, but someone has to point out where I'm wrong first.

And I repeat: I fully sustain President Monson as the man who has the right to receive revelation and prophecy conerning the Church and for its members, and I believe he still holds all the restored Priesthood keys that were given to Joseph Smith. I am not in apostacy or about to leave the Church- far, far from it.