LDS Freedom Forum

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7743424

Some people might be quick to shrug it off or consider it the work of Mormon-bashers, but IMHO, it is dead on, especially when you consider this...

"A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints in the last days, and the result will be financial bondage." - Pres. Heber C. Kimball, 1868.

It seems that many within the church are consumed with their image and appearance nowadays and Pres. Kimball's term "extravigance" here certainly fits for today's Salt Lake City!

Col. Flagg wrote:http://www.sltrib.com/ci_7743424

Some people might be quick to shrug it off or consider it the work of Mormon-bashers, but IMHO, it is dead on, especially when you consider this...

"A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints in the last days, and the result will be financial bondage." - Pres. Heber C. Kimball, 1868.

It seems that many within the church are consumed with their image and appearance nowadays and Pres. Kimball's term "extravigance" here certainly fits for today's Salt Lake City!

Fine Twined Linen.

And amen to your article. I have no debt. None.

I wish I could say the same. I've been a victim of the unethical Utah County compensation practice since 1991. In the last 6 years, I've been laid off twice, spent two years trying to get into a health program at a local school, only to be denied 3 times owing to competition by students going to school full-time with no family to take care of and have basically had to start over financially. We've had to go into some debt JUST TO STINKING LIVE! I have almost 40 credit hours more than is required for a bachelor's degree and I am currently paid as if I have no college education. It is SICK and many LDS employers are going to have to answer to the Lord some day as to why they intentionally under-compensated employees with college degrees and caused financial hardships for them while living lavish, luxurious lifestyles. If I were an employer, my #1 priority would be to my employees... not to greed, profit margin or own bank account! I would surmise that LDS employers are more unethical than non-LDS employers are. Just look in any of the local media (newspapers, Utah DWS, job websites, etc.) and you'll see what employers want to pay you for having that college degree. You'll think you're looking at ads for jobs posted back in the 1980's for about 75% of them when you see the hourly rates (and/or salaries being offered). I better stop there because this subject riles me up (just like 9/11).

Eventually the Saints will have to leave Utah due to the fact that the poor will be literally pushed out.

Whether it is by the impossibility of surviving, or by laws, they will come out eventually.

And after the poor come out then we know what is next.

We left after 9 months of unemployment, short selling our car and losing anything of monetary value. (our cars etc) We sold all we had, and moved to Missouri.

There is no way that we could live there today, and frankly, you couldn't make me go back.

I wish we had the money to be able to pack up our things and move somewhere else where I was going to have a good job and so that my wife didn't have to work, but unfortunately, it's wishful thinking. I am from California originally and wouldn't mind moving to the southeast part of the state somewhere. Utah is a strange and repulsive place when it comes to business and employment. There are far too many judgmental people here too and it irks me to no end when I see good people who are not members of the church treated like outcasts. I had a boss recently who is Catholic and I will guarantee you that she acts more like a member of the church than most LDS people around here. It is sad, but a testament to the reality of what is going on.

And here's something that has bothered me for quite some time and I apologize if I get too personal with it. Why is it that some people seem to be blessed financially (no matter how little or how much education they have), while others seem to be in a constant state of financial adversity? My wife and I are sweethearts in the truest sense of the word. We'll do anything for each other and for our entire married life, my wife has had to work because of the garbage wages paid to people in Utah. We've struggled financially almost every year since 1991, but with our payment of tithes and offerings, I think the Lord has blessed us or things could have been much worse. I've spent the better half of our marriage working and going to school and now possess three degrees, but that still hasn't mattered in terms of our financial situation.

Anyway... my sister-in-law married a fellow that I know she wasn't sure she was in love with when they got married and over the years, this has been confirmed in expressions, words and actions to both my wife and I. She seems to be all about being wined and dined on and her husband is a computer programmer by trade (with very little in the way of education) and has always made plenty of money so that she has never had to work a day in her life. He's come close to being laid off twice, but both times, had a relative who found him a position in a different department within the company. She has become smug and somewhat 'stuck up' because of her situation and lifestyle that requires little sacrifice. She has never had a desire to go to school, go out and get a job or do anything with her life, her house is a filthy mess and she has barely been a mother to both of her boys because of her unhappiness in her marriage. She stays at home all day and gossips on the phone, shops at Wal Mart and sews.

She's even been on prozac with no stress or anything being the culprit... just depression out of being married to someone she doesn't love. her husband hasn't treated me very nice over the years because I think he senses she has feelings for me (my wife is an identical twin). I'm of the opinion that if they were to ever experience any kind of financial adversity that required her to go out and get a job or any kind of sacrifice, it would expose the reality of the facade she's putting on for the family. I just can't help but wonder why she and her husband prosper financially in a phony situation like that, whereas my wife and I, because of circumstances beyond our control, suffer nothing but financial hardship? Any ideas/opinions/suggestions?

And, in case anyone is wondering... the reason I seem to have so much time to spend on these boards during the day is because most of what I do depends upon the corporate network and when it isn't providing me with what I need to do my job, I go into waiting mode.

I would say take it to the Lord. He will guide your path.

And as far as the rest, it is through our obedience while we are suffering that we are perfected.

See Hebrews 5:5 to understand where I get that.

The dross is removed by adversity, and all that is left is the gold.

If there is not adversity, there is no refining. If there is no refining, I would be really nervous....

I didn't plan on moving here. We were guided here. I was afraid, but I took each step as it was given to me, and I am thankful for that.

You may be needed there for some time... there is only one you can ask about that.

LoveChrist wrote:I would say take it to the Lord. He will guide your path.

And as far as the rest, it is through our obedience while we are suffering that we are perfected.

See Hebrews 5:5 to understand where I get that.

The dross is removed by adversity, and all that is left is the gold.

If there is not adversity, there is no refining. If there is no refining, I would be really nervous....

I didn't plan on moving here. We were guided here. I was afraid, but I took each step as it was given to me, and I am thankful for that.

You may be needed there for some time... there is only one you can ask about that.

Thanks LC... will take that to heart. Question though... you mentioned that if there was no refining, you'd be really nervous. Why is that?

If I did not have trials, if I was not continually being refined, then I would be concerned about my spiritual welfare, unless I am translated or something.

With the idea of there being opposition, if I am moving towards God, there has got to be something pushing me away. If I am not facing these trials and tribulations, then it is highly likely I have stopped moving and I am now back sliding.

Not that we don't all have trials, but unless I am translated, I expect there are more ahead.

It is like a cycle for me. Abundant blessings, and then severe trial, and then abundant blessings again.

Col. Flagg wrote:I wish I could say the same. I've been a victim of the unethical Utah County compensation practice since 1991. In the last 6 years, I've been laid off twice, spent two years trying to get into a health program at a local school, only to be denied 3 times owing to competition by students going to school full-time with no family to take care of and have basically had to start over financially. We've had to go into some debt JUST TO STINKING LIVE! I have almost 40 credit hours more than is required for a bachelor's degree and I am currently paid as if I have no college education. It is SICK and many LDS employers are going to have to answer to the Lord some day as to why they intentionally under-compensated employees with college degrees and caused financial hardships for them while living lavish, luxurious lifestyles. If I were an employer, my #1 priority would be to my employees... not to greed, profit margin or own bank account! I would surmise that LDS employers are more unethical than non-LDS employers are. Just look in any of the local media (newspapers, Utah DWS, job websites, etc.) and you'll see what employers want to pay you for having that college degree. You'll think you're looking at ads for jobs posted back in the 1980's for about 75% of them when you see the hourly rates (and/or salaries being offered). I better stop there because this subject riles me up (just like 9/11).

having owned a business we learned pretty quickly, do NOT do business with members. They don't pay their bills. Something about "oh, he's a member, he'll understand", or we're low down the pecking order of people. maybe they know we won't sue? I don't know.

All we know is that almost without exception, every person we have seen from the USA who came out here in the 70's and 80" was involved in get rich schemes, or network marketing schemes. the idea behind those being you can get a legion of gullible saints to go out and work for you for free, and you can get rich.

it goes against the principle of working by the sweat of your brow, and so these are the people i regard as the speculators.

the husband and wife who have to borrow to buy an affordable home are NOT speculators. to tell them "get out of debt" when one grew up in an era of easy jobs, easy degrees, and houses that cost all of 3 times an annual salary (when they are 10 or so times now) smacks of ignorance.

a person who did not take on some debt in the last 10 years would be completely priced out of the housing market today. the asset went up multiple times the cost of borrowing. there is NOTHING wrong with debt, provided we can service the borrowing and it is for proper assets, not for 2 x big cars, 50 inch tv's and big holidays.

if it werent for debt then none of our countries would have been able to get up and running. they tell us to invest, as though that is a wise principle and the foundation of our financial system. well that investment goes to someone else and its their borrowing, their DEBT.

If no one borrowed, there would be NO roads, NO hospitals, NO ports, NO infrastructure. We'd be in upstate New York in 1830 and riding buggies- and there is nothing wrong with that.

Heck, even the church borrowed money, and doesn't it offer micro loans through the education fund?

Too many regard debt as evil. what it is, is something that should be assumed wisely, avoided where unnecessary for say extravagances, and used to purchase an income producing assets where possible, which includes ourselves through education.

to truly understand what the consequence of a system that pays people $8p/h one must look into Marxian economics, and the theory or Surplus Labour, just wikipedia it. The system cannot maintain it for too long. it will either collapse, implode, or be superseded. It is unsustainable in the long run.

To be honest, I push so hard that every day I feel like I can not do anymore. It is through prayer and scripture study that I am able to keep going.

My level of exhaustion has increased and my sleep decreased. I am doing too much, I know this, but there is not a front I am willing to give up right now.

The Gospel.

My Children's Education.

My Education.

Liberty for All.

And Church responsibilities

Would cover the areas that I am fighting for, but it does not cover what is really going on there. Or the attacks that I face personally all the time.

Whether I am attacked because I am LDS, or because I support Ron Paul, or because I am a home schooler, whatever it is, there is something every day.

People who know me always say that they don't know how I do it, and that is because I Don't. The Lord does. He stretches me every time, a lot further then I think I can go to be honest.

I tend to keep a lot inside too, so that can make things harder. The only places I let it out is in here and my blogs LOL.

A business debt is different then an individual's debt.

I think that our education, reliable (modest) transportation, and our homes are the only things we should consider going into debt for.

But even then it should be with reservation and great pondering and asking the Lord. We should determine if the amount of debt that we would pay for education would be recovered by the increase in pay to have that degree. (There are other ways to become educated too)

When it comes to a car, I really liked what was in a previous ensign, and I wish I would have seen that before we got into this other car over a year ago. Make sure that you can pay it off in three years or less. I wish more then anything that we would have just kept repairing or paying cash for our cars... this *new* car is eating us alive.

Same with our home. I wish that I would have known what an ARM really was, have learned from Swiss about the economy before ever making that choice, but I was not even on this site at that time. I would have kept renting longer until I could get in a more honest situation rather then 100% LTV.

Live and learn.

Col. Flagg wrote:I wish we had the money to be able to pack up our things and move somewhere else where I was going to have a good job and so that my wife didn't have to work, but unfortunately, it's wishful thinking. I am from California originally and wouldn't mind moving to the southeast part of the state somewhere. Utah is a strange and repulsive place when it comes to business and employment. There are far too many judgmental people here too and it irks me to no end when I see good people who are not members of the church treated like outcasts. I had a boss recently who is Catholic and I will guarantee you that she acts more like a member of the church than most LDS people around here. It is sad, but a testament to the reality of what is going on.

And here's something that has bothered me for quite some time and I apologize if I get too personal with it. Why is it that some people seem to be blessed financially (no matter how little or how much education they have), while others seem to be in a constant state of financial adversity? My wife and I are sweethearts in the truest sense of the word. We'll do anything for each other and for our entire married life, my wife has had to work because of the garbage wages paid to people in Utah. We've struggled financially almost every year since 1991, but with our payment of tithes and offerings, I think the Lord has blessed us or things could have been much worse. I've spent the better half of our marriage working and going to school and now possess three degrees, but that still hasn't mattered in terms of our financial situation.

Anyway... my sister-in-law married a fellow that I know she wasn't sure she was in love with when they got married and over the years, this has been confirmed in expressions, words and actions to both my wife and I. She seems to be all about being wined and dined on and her husband is a computer programmer by trade (with very little in the way of education) and has always made plenty of money so that she has never had to work a day in her life. He's come close to being laid off twice, but both times, had a relative who found him a position in a different department within the company. She has become smug and somewhat 'stuck up' because of her situation and lifestyle that requires little sacrifice. She has never had a desire to go to school, go out and get a job or do anything with her life, her house is a filthy mess and she has barely been a mother to both of her boys because of her unhappiness in her marriage. She stays at home all day and gossips on the phone, shops at Wal Mart and sews.

She's even been on prozac with no stress or anything being the culprit... just depression out of being married to someone she doesn't love. her husband hasn't treated me very nice over the years because I think he senses she has feelings for me (my wife is an identical twin). I'm of the opinion that if they were to ever experience any kind of financial adversity that required her to go out and get a job or any kind of sacrifice, it would expose the reality of the facade she's putting on for the family. I just can't help but wonder why she and her husband prosper financially in a phony situation like that, whereas my wife and I, because of circumstances beyond our control, suffer nothing but financial hardship? Any ideas/opinions/suggestions?

And, in case anyone is wondering... the reason I seem to have so much time to spend on these boards during the day is because most of what I do depends upon the corporate network and when it isn't providing me with what I need to do my job, I go into waiting mode.

what a story. first of all an identical twin? ouch. I've got that with my wife, not identical though. man thats crazy, especially when they are together- i almost hug the wrong person etc. might sound cheap to others, but I am sure you know how expensive mistake that would be.

anyway, solid post. it is going to be increasingly a problem. we are pricing our children out of home ownership. i blame the baby boomers for it. they got cheap post ww2 houses, easy jobs, fat lifestyle, social security, medicare, a few wars, all to be paid for by us. and never mind the environment eh.

3 degrees? Wow. if only you could live in Oz. No wonder so many come down with work transfers and stay.

i've been on your side of the fence before. its no fun. i've been in a very dark dirty bucket and there is NO one throwing a rope over.

the only consolation is that it really defines a relationship. after what my wife and i have been through together, if we were able to get through that together, we know we can get through most anything, and that is comforting.

we know we'll be dead and pushing up daisies one day and can't take any of it with us. it means nothing. but those who say its only money neer had it. the "money doesn't buy happiness" thing is not true. it does. it pays bills which buys peace of mind which provides happiness. not in a gospel sense of course.

the major difference with our situations now is that we are able to use our (extra) to help those with nothing, which we have chosen as those in 3rd world countries who are dying and in exploitation. we do this because we can. we are 100% no different than if we didn't, when we were younger and did not have the resources to do this. i don't think we are going to be blessed because we are. rather, blessed because we didn't not. i am sure that- just as the church regards a wife whose husband forbids her from paying a tithe, we regard her as a full tithe payer, i believe that if a couple would if they COULD, then it is regarded as they do. the test comes when they can. and it is not a test to see if they will, but rather, if they won't.

to that end, most of the world doesn't give/ share, (refer D&C104:17-18) hence, (additional) wealth is both a blessing and a curse, and to the greater extent intention is the critical issue.

in the meantime, its just about getting by.

we would never swap the years where we didn't have much, and i worked at night and my wife during the day etc. our life wasn't "richer" then, or all those other statements we say when others have more, but rather, having little did define our relationship.

my sister in law sounds very similar to yours. 20 years later she is still with the same nasty husband who demeans her in front of his children, who are not growing up into the young ladies they could be. she is not happy, and it is very sad. but then i can show you another family who are the opposite.

wealth is a blessing and a curse. i guess we can't talk though. another 30,000 children will excrete themselves to death in the next 24 hours from lack of glucose, water and food. all they have is a ratty blanket and a few flies.

but you are right, the system sucks, it is broken, satan is doing a good job. thankfully there is a better way, and it won't be long before we ALL enjoy it, whether we are dead of still living.

as my wife and I always said, when the lights are out, we still have to be able to talk to one another, I guess thats the measure of true riches. relationships.

LoveChrist wrote:A business debt is different then an individual's debt.

I think that our education, reliable (modest) transportation, and our homes are the only things we should consider going into debt for.

But even then it should be with reservation and great pondering and asking the Lord. We should determine if the amount of debt that we would pay for education would be recovered by the increase in pay to have that degree. (There are other ways to become educated too)

When it comes to a car, I really liked what was in a previous ensign, and I wish I would have seen that before we got into this other car over a year ago. Make sure that you can pay it off in three years or less. I wish more then anything that we would have just kept repairing or paying cash for our cars... this *new* car is eating us alive.

Same with our home. I wish that I would have known what an ARM really was, have learned from Swiss about the economy before ever making that choice, but I was not even on this site at that time. I would have kept renting longer until I could get in a more honest situation rather then 100% LTV.

Live and learn.

Ooohhh... you got into an ARM? When does it reset? I hope it isn't going to increase that much... even an increase from 4% to 6% can increase a house payment by $400. Are you guys gonna come out OK?

Oh my gosh Aussie! You sounded so... ahem...

thoughtful in that post.

Did the wizard find you a heart?

AussieOi wrote:

Col. Flagg wrote:I wish we had the money to be able to pack up our things and move somewhere else where I was going to have a good job and so that my wife didn't have to work, but unfortunately, it's wishful thinking. I am from California originally and wouldn't mind moving to the southeast part of the state somewhere. Utah is a strange and repulsive place when it comes to business and employment. There are far too many judgmental people here too and it irks me to no end when I see good people who are not members of the church treated like outcasts. I had a boss recently who is Catholic and I will guarantee you that she acts more like a member of the church than most LDS people around here. It is sad, but a testament to the reality of what is going on.

And here's something that has bothered me for quite some time and I apologize if I get too personal with it. Why is it that some people seem to be blessed financially (no matter how little or how much education they have), while others seem to be in a constant state of financial adversity? My wife and I are sweethearts in the truest sense of the word. We'll do anything for each other and for our entire married life, my wife has had to work because of the garbage wages paid to people in Utah. We've struggled financially almost every year since 1991, but with our payment of tithes and offerings, I think the Lord has blessed us or things could have been much worse. I've spent the better half of our marriage working and going to school and now possess three degrees, but that still hasn't mattered in terms of our financial situation.

Anyway... my sister-in-law married a fellow that I know she wasn't sure she was in love with when they got married and over the years, this has been confirmed in expressions, words and actions to both my wife and I. She seems to be all about being wined and dined on and her husband is a computer programmer by trade (with very little in the way of education) and has always made plenty of money so that she has never had to work a day in her life. He's come close to being laid off twice, but both times, had a relative who found him a position in a different department within the company. She has become smug and somewhat 'stuck up' because of her situation and lifestyle that requires little sacrifice. She has never had a desire to go to school, go out and get a job or do anything with her life, her house is a filthy mess and she has barely been a mother to both of her boys because of her unhappiness in her marriage. She stays at home all day and gossips on the phone, shops at Wal Mart and sews.

She's even been on prozac with no stress or anything being the culprit... just depression out of being married to someone she doesn't love. her husband hasn't treated me very nice over the years because I think he senses she has feelings for me (my wife is an identical twin). I'm of the opinion that if they were to ever experience any kind of financial adversity that required her to go out and get a job or any kind of sacrifice, it would expose the reality of the facade she's putting on for the family. I just can't help but wonder why she and her husband prosper financially in a phony situation like that, whereas my wife and I, because of circumstances beyond our control, suffer nothing but financial hardship? Any ideas/opinions/suggestions?

And, in case anyone is wondering... the reason I seem to have so much time to spend on these boards during the day is because most of what I do depends upon the corporate network and when it isn't providing me with what I need to do my job, I go into waiting mode.

what a story. first of all an identical twin? ouch. I've got that with my wife, not identical though. man thats crazy, especially when they are together- i almost hug the wrong person etc. might sound cheap to others, but I am sure you know how expensive mistake that would be.

anyway, solid post. it is going to be increasingly a problem. we are pricing our children out of home ownership. i blame the baby boomers for it. they got cheap post ww2 houses, easy jobs, fat lifestyle, social security, medicare, a few wars, all to be paid for by us. and never mind the environment eh.

3 degrees? Wow. if only you could live in Oz. No wonder so many come down with work transfers and stay.

i've been on your side of the fence before. its no fun. i've been in a very dark dirty bucket and there is NO one throwing a rope over.

the only consolation is that it really defines a relationship. after what my wife and i have been through together, if we were able to get through that together, we know we can get through most anything, and that is comforting.

we know we'll be dead and pushing up daisies one day and can't take any of it with us. it means nothing. but those who say its only money neer had it. the "money doesn't buy happiness" thing is not true. it does. it pays bills which buys peace of mind which provides happiness. not in a gospel sense of course.

the major difference with our situations now is that we are able to use our (extra) to help those with nothing, which we have chosen as those in 3rd world countries who are dying and in exploitation. we do this because we can. we are 100% no different than if we didn't, when we were younger and did not have the resources to do this. i don't think we are going to be blessed because we are. rather, blessed because we didn't not. i am sure that- just as the church regards a wife whose husband forbids her from paying a tithe, we regard her as a full tithe payer, i believe that if a couple would if they COULD, then it is regarded as they do. the test comes when they can. and it is not a test to see if they will, but rather, if they won't.

to that end, most of the world doesn't give/ share, (refer D&C104:17-18) hence, (additional) wealth is both a blessing and a curse, and to the greater extent intention is the critical issue.

in the meantime, its just about getting by.

we would never swap the years where we didn't have much, and i worked at night and my wife during the day etc. our life wasn't "richer" then, or all those other statements we say when others have more, but rather, having little did define our relationship.

my sister in law sounds very similar to yours. 20 years later she is still with the same nasty husband who demeans her in front of his children, who are not growing up into the young ladies they could be. she is not happy, and it is very sad. but then i can show you another family who are the opposite.

wealth is a blessing and a curse. i guess we can't talk though. another 30,000 children will excrete themselves to death in the next 24 hours from lack of glucose, water and food. all they have is a ratty blanket and a few flies.

but you are right, the system sucks, it is broken, satan is doing a good job. thankfully there is a better way, and it won't be long before we ALL enjoy it, whether we are dead of still living.

as my wife and I always said, when the lights are out, we still have to be able to talk to one another, I guess thats the measure of true riches. relationships.

Thanks for the reply Aussie. Wow... your post was almost as long as mine. I probably shouldn't be worried about anyone but myself, my wife and our 3 kids, but that had been on my chest for a long time... had to get it out. Christ said that life and enduring to the end wouldn't be easy or fair... only worth it., so I guess we can take comfort in that. I have to ask you a question too... Dr. Jones has mentioned you as being the one who directed him to this site. Are you two related, friends?

Col. Flagg wrote:

LoveChrist wrote:A business debt is different then an individual's debt.

I think that our education, reliable (modest) transportation, and our homes are the only things we should consider going into debt for.

But even then it should be with reservation and great pondering and asking the Lord. We should determine if the amount of debt that we would pay for education would be recovered by the increase in pay to have that degree. (There are other ways to become educated too)

When it comes to a car, I really liked what was in a previous ensign, and I wish I would have seen that before we got into this other car over a year ago. Make sure that you can pay it off in three years or less. I wish more then anything that we would have just kept repairing or paying cash for our cars... this *new* car is eating us alive.

Same with our home. I wish that I would have known what an ARM really was, have learned from Swiss about the economy before ever making that choice, but I was not even on this site at that time. I would have kept renting longer until I could get in a more honest situation rather then 100% LTV.

Live and learn.

Ooohhh... you got into an ARM? When does it reset? I hope it isn't going to increase that much... even an increase from 4% to 6% can increase a house payment by $400. Are you guys gonna come out OK?

In May. We do not know what will happen. We are doing the best that we can with what we have been given, and trust that whatever happens that the Lord will bless us. We have struggled to find answers for over a year, but they just have not come, other then selling our other property. It is in the Lord's hands, we are doing everything we can think of to get all the way out of debt.

ChelC wrote:Oh my gosh Aussie! You sounded so... ahem...

thoughtful in that post.

Did the wizard find you a heart? :wink:

Quite possibly, perhaps it is the Christmas spirit?

I always admit to being full of it. I’m as useful as a ventriloquist with an owl, a snake and an @#$.

The question is which one am I channelling through in any particular post- even I don’t know sometimes!

Col. Flagg wrote: Thanks for the reply Aussie. Wow... your post was almost as long as mine. I probably shouldn't be worried about anyone but myself, my wife and our 3 kids, but that had been on my chest for a long time... had to get it out. Christ said that life and enduring to the end wouldn't be easy or fair... only worth it., so I guess we can take comfort in that. I have to ask you a question too... Dr. Jones has mentioned you as being the one who directed him to this site. Are you two related, friends?

>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for the reply Aussie. Wow... your post was almost as long as mine. I probably shouldn't be worried about anyone but myself, my wife and our 3 kids, but that had been on my chest for a long time... had to get it out.


And your entitled, to, sure is frustrating. One of the features of our lives, is that we as people spend as much as we earn, plus a little extra, factoring gin debt servicing. The crunch that is coming will sap incomes. It’s harder to pay the same interest with no income, than pay more interest with slightly more income. Trust me, there will be a lot more people wearing heavy loads over the coming few years. I’d be interested to see how the church deals with it on an emotional level….if at all (after all the economic reality for some US citizens is hardly an effect on the guy peddling oranges in Mexico to eat for that day right)


.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. Dr. Jones has mentioned you as being the one who directed him to this site. Are you two related, friends?[/quote]


No, thankfully for him. I spent some time over at RKY. The discussion got pretty predictable. Apart from the preparedness stuff which is quite useful. For too many the level of comprehension is that the “Right” is right, because the church is “Right”. The Right is right because they fight for freedom, and are anti-gay marriage and anti abortion (right?) whereas the left are pro taxes and pro gay and pro abortion and anti freedom, and that most hideous of words “liberal”. Therefore US foreign policy is wrapped up with the religious Right, and is unimpeachable, as is gods appointee on eath, the President of the USA. This means much of the conversation on politics and war and LDG is predictable, based on fear, naivety, ignorance and misunderstanding. For those who can see that the powrs in charge are no better than LDG’s, most refuse to accept their own govts complicity, or their ability to do something about it. They are neutered and CHH would let them know in no uncertain terms.
DrJ was posting to these people incessantly with scripture and common sense, but it wasn’t getting through to many, then the conversation started going in circles, and someone suggested in a post – well, they basically said “and Satan works through DrJones” after he posted a scripture, so I suggested he have a look here because my observation was we tend to have discussions that evolve and aren’t taken personally and involve replies which can go past 3 lines, and don’t all have “LOL!!!!” or the word “goosebumps”.

I just got banished / penalised/ sin-binned for calling some guy a sicko- he was posting in support of waterboarding and Romney’s refusal to speak against it, saying Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would support a person doing it to save lives etc. I called him a sicko and said I’m glad he’ll never teach my kids in primary or seminary.15 demerit points. 20 is a ban. I did well this time, lasted about 2 months before I got banned, last time was 3 days.

having owned a business we learned pretty quickly, do NOT do business with members. They don't pay their bills. Something about "oh, he's a member, he'll understand", or we're low down the pecking order of people. maybe they know we won't sue? I don't know.

Unfortunately, you're right, generally speaking. I'm in business for myself and have noticed the same thing.

But there are exceptions also. And the exceptions, those who appreciate the work you do for them and make every effort to pay their bills, make it difficult for me to avoid doing business with church members. Interestingly enough, usually those with the fewest resources are the ones who are most conscientious about paying their bills.

At this point, when I take on a church member as a client, I usually do so expecting not to get paid. Then when some of them do, I've tricked myself into thinking I've come out ahead.

That being said, there are some that just take advantage over and over again. I avoid them.

But overall, I've decided that I'd rather take the chance of getting screwed over by someone without much integrity than to offend someone who is good-hearted and honest. Until I can figure out how to differentiate ahead of time, its the best system I can come up with.

there is NOTHING wrong with debt, provided we can service the borrowing and it is for proper assets, not for 2 x big cars, 50 inch tv's and big holidays.

I agree that debt isn't evil as long as its used constructively. But in the U.S., its become a way of life for many. If I remember correctly, the church has mainly railed against consumer debts, and advised us not to go overboard with the debt used for necessities. Pretty much what you said now that I look back at it.

You've got to admit, having no or very little debt provides more peace than having lots of it.

LoveC wrote about their ARM: "In May. We do not know what will happen. We are doing the best that we can with what we have been given, and trust that whatever happens that the Lord will bless us. We have struggled to find answers for over a year, but they just have not come, other then selling our other property. It is in the Lord's hands, we are doing everything we can think of to get all the way out of debt."

Let me just say changes are coming, April-May seems the likely time, and this based mainly on the falling dollar, oil sold in euros etc., stock market fluctuations and derivative excesses, etc. But also on the Johani Wolfgramm prophecy/prediction (right on so far, AFAIK). I would NOT fear, LC -- as the I am very confident the Lord will protect you.


I felt much same way leaving my well-paying job, to unemployment now... errrrr, early retirement. I felt and do feel to TRUST THE LORD. And how he has blessed us! Just wish I could do something for good people like you and Col Flagg, salt of the earth people. We will join together in Zion someday. I don't care a bit about fancy cars, etc. -- never had a new car. Never got in debt to get a car, either, as far as I can recall.

Aussie is right about some defending torture/Guantanamo on the RKY board, despite scriptures and reason to the contrary -- evidently because Bush and Romney support it... Wow, I was disappointed.

Aussie -- remember how I quoted the DesNews article about the returned female missionaries who served in the army in Iraq -- and two of them committed suicide after being 'forced' to administer torture. The third wrote a book about her experiences in Iraq, being called a &!@$#, etc. And several forum people complained about my posting this material and opposing torture! I rec'd a hint/rebuke from the forum guys to cease and desist -- I was very disappointed -- but about that time you told me about this forum. Here I am. Great group here (thank you all).

I have made an observation. I think LDS people are easily deceived because they have ceased to keep the Sabath day holy.
I think this is the commandment that determines your level of Holy Ghost in your life. What do you think?

Debt is absolutely a way of life. Growing up I knew that the church discouraged debt, but at the same time I was taught that debt was how you lived. For example, when it was time for me to get a car I didn't want a lot of debt, so I got a cheap car but I never considered saving for the car first or even paying more than my monthly payment on it. My mother tried to get me to apply for in-store credit cards, which thankfully I was wise enough not to use! I worked at a department store that offered a discount, but only if you purchased your stuff with their credit card.... so the whole time I worked there I paid full price.

I was lucky not to get sucked in too badly, because it would have been very easy to do so and plenty of people are there to tell you it's necessary. And that's for the frivilous stuff, so enter infertility treatments - which must be okay to build a little debt for right, because we're commanded to multiply? Follow that up with an adoption... certainly it's okay to have some debt there... maybe the tranny goes out on the car, and it's a Camry which costs 4K to fix... so you let it sit for a year, but when that year is crap you finally decide to take on a little more debt to fix it. Then you have an unexpected surgery with that crappy insurance you got because it was cheaper (so you could pay your bills) and now you've added medical bills to the heap. You're supposed to stay home with your kids, so of course you switch to part time and eventually quit, so you babysit the neighbor kid to make up a little bit. Problem is the neighbor kid breaks something every day he comes over so you're really not making money. That kid you adopted, he's well on his way to 3 years old already, and he needs a sibling. You decide to pay cash for the fertility stuff this time, and you set a strict limit since you're barely keeping up with the debt and don't want more. Lo and behold, you find something that works right away, and find out you are expecting. That crappy insurance, you still have that. Those fetal movements... yeah... those are actually contractions. You decide there is no way you can stay afloat when the new baby comes, so you sell your house... just before the holidays. You try preventing pre term labor but your doctor says those contractions are nothing. You move into your BILs basement for a month or so until you can close on a new crappier house... he could use the help with his heating bill, so you work out a deal. Your entire family gets the flu and you feel like your living in a dungeon with no privacy and you wake everyone up with your coughing and puking. You pace the floor because you have contractions, and you finally convince the doctor when you are dilating a couple months early to put you on something for those. You get fed up and move to an extended stay hotel but you feel obligated to help the BIL so you pay what you would have plus the hotel bill, and there goes Christmas.

Christmas eve is spent pacing - those pills aren't helping the contractions. You're sick of looking out the window at that truck stop every night. Two days (or was it one?) after Christmas, just a day before you are due to close on that hideous house that needed a few weeks of TLC to make it safe, what you've been warning everyone about happens... you're in labor. The title company and realtor are kind enough to come to the delivery room to sign the papers. Your baby is now only five weeks early, so he'll probably be okay, but just in case you have ten people standing around for the delivery, which happens after the doctors have spent two days giving you everything known to man to stop this baby from coming. They gave up, he's coming. He's born, but he's not breathing. You don't get more than a glimpse of his blue face and they rush him to the NICU. They let you see him for one second after they get him breathing and hook up a billion wires and tubes, and then they say, oh... you can't be in here, you've been coughing. A few hours later it's comfirmed you have the flu and won't be able to hold your baby at all until you are better.

That hotel? Well they only allow one child, so you have to move out. You can't move in the new house because it needs the underlayment, tile, carpet, paint, you name it replaced or you are not bringing a baby in that filth. So you move in the ILs basement. You can't take good care of the three year old because he's puking, you're puking, your parents are puking, and the only one not puking is your husband and FIL who are at the house day and night trying to make it liveable. Who's with the baby? No one. The hospital won't tell you anything other than your baby isn't the sickest one, so they don't have time for you... but get them that damn breast milk that won't come in you wretched excuse for a mother!

Wow... I'm still pissed about that experience. After a week we brought him home from the NICU and I had to wear a blue mask. A week later my husband finished the house... how he managed to do it all in two weeks is a miracle I can't figure out. We have spent two years now in this house fixing it up and can now happily say that after much sacrifice and heartache, and complete inconvenience and chaos for these two years, we are now debt free (other than the house). We did have to use some equity to get there unfortunately, and we had HUGE medical bills from the NICU. We also had a double whammy because our maximum out of pocket (which was a lot from the crap insurance) applied to our bills twice, because I went into the hospital on Dec. 27 and my son came home in January... two calendar years, two out of pocket maxes.

So my point is... life happens. Debt is sometimes unavoidable which is why we shouldn't have bought the original house without first building up some savings. We definitely shouldn't waste our debt on a car or school if we don't absolutely have to, because you just might have the year from hell like we did and if you already have frivilous debt, you'll be in even bigger trouble.

sally wrote:I have made an observation. I think LDS people are easily deceived because they have ceased to keep the Sabath day holy.
I think this is the commandment that determines your level of Holy Ghost in your life. What do you think?

I think that you are right. The scriptures tell us that this is a sign of the covenant between the Lord and his people. If we do not keep the Sabbath day holy, we have no promise.

ChelC wrote:Debt is absolutely a way of life. Growing up I knew that the church discouraged debt, but at the same time I was taught that debt was how you lived. For example, when it was time for me to get a car I didn't want a lot of debt, so I got a cheap car but I never considered saving for the car first or even paying more than my monthly payment on it. My mother tried to get me to apply for in-store credit cards, which thankfully I was wise enough not to use! I worked at a department store that offered a discount, but only if you purchased your stuff with their credit card.... so the whole time I worked there I paid full price.

I was lucky not to get sucked in too badly, because it would have been very easy to do so and plenty of people are there to tell you it's necessary. And that's for the frivilous stuff, so enter infertility treatments - which must be okay to build a little debt for right, because we're commanded to multiply? Follow that up with an adoption... certainly it's okay to have some debt there... maybe the tranny goes out on the car, and it's a Camry which costs 4K to fix... so you let it sit for a year, but when that year is crap you finally decide to take on a little more debt to fix it. Then you have an unexpected surgery with that crappy insurance you got because it was cheaper (so you could pay your bills) and now you've added medical bills to the heap. You're supposed to stay home with your kids, so of course you switch to part time and eventually quit, so you babysit the neighbor kid to make up a little bit. Problem is the neighbor kid breaks something every day he comes over so you're really not making money. That kid you adopted, he's well on his way to 3 years old already, and he needs a sibling. You decide to pay cash for the fertility stuff this time, and you set a strict limit since you're barely keeping up with the debt and don't want more. Lo and behold, you find something that works right away, and find out you are expecting. That crappy insurance, you still have that. Those fetal movements... yeah... those are actually contractions. You decide there is no way you can stay afloat when the new baby comes, so you sell your house... just before the holidays. You try preventing pre term labor but your doctor says those contractions are nothing. You move into your BILs basement for a month or so until you can close on a new crappier house... he could use the help with his heating bill, so you work out a deal. Your entire family gets the flu and you feel like your living in a dungeon with no privacy and you wake everyone up with your coughing and puking. You pace the floor because you have contractions, and you finally convince the doctor when you are dilating a couple months early to put you on something for those. You get fed up and move to an extended stay hotel but you feel obligated to help the BIL so you pay what you would have plus the hotel bill, and there goes Christmas.

Christmas eve is spent pacing - those pills aren't helping the contractions. You're sick of looking out the window at that truck stop every night. Two days (or was it one?) after Christmas, just a day before you are due to close on that hideous house that needed a few weeks of TLC to make it safe, what you've been warning everyone about happens... you're in labor. The title company and realtor are kind enough to come to the delivery room to sign the papers. Your baby is now only five weeks early, so he'll probably be okay, but just in case you have ten people standing around for the delivery, which happens after the doctors have spent two days giving you everything known to man to stop this baby from coming. They gave up, he's coming. He's born, but he's not breathing. You don't get more than a glimpse of his blue face and they rush him to the NICU. They let you see him for one second after they get him breathing and hook up a billion wires and tubes, and then they say, oh... you can't be in here, you've been coughing. A few hours later it's comfirmed you have the flu and won't be able to hold your baby at all until you are better.

That hotel? Well they only allow one child, so you have to move out. You can't move in the new house because it needs the underlayment, tile, carpet, paint, you name it replaced or you are not bringing a baby in that filth. So you move in the ILs basement. You can't take good care of the three year old because he's puking, you're puking, your parents are puking, and the only one not puking is your husband and FIL who are at the house day and night trying to make it liveable. Who's with the baby? No one. The hospital won't tell you anything other than your baby isn't the sickest one, so they don't have time for you... but get them that damn breast milk that won't come in you wretched excuse for a mother!

Wow... I'm still pissed about that experience. After a week we brought him home from the NICU and I had to wear a blue mask. A week later my husband finished the house... how he managed to do it all in two weeks is a miracle I can't figure out. We have spent two years now in this house fixing it up and can now happily say that after much sacrifice and heartache, and complete inconvenience and chaos for these two years, we are now debt free (other than the house). We did have to use some equity to get there unfortunately, and we had HUGE medical bills from the NICU. We also had a double whammy because our maximum out of pocket (which was a lot from the crap insurance) applied to our bills twice, because I went into the hospital on Dec. 27 and my son came home in January... two calendar years, two out of pocket maxes.

So my point is... life happens. Debt is sometimes unavoidable which is why we shouldn't have bought the original house without first building up some savings. We definitely shouldn't waste our debt on a car or school if we don't absolutely have to, because you just might have the year from hell like we did and if you already have frivilous debt, you'll be in even bigger trouble.

WOW that sounds so much like the year our twins were born. They were 4 1/2 weeks early, and I was literally signing papers from my hospital bed. We won't go into the rest, but wow, that brought back memories!

You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you. You're so vain, I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't you? Don't you? -A little Carly Simon for the day.

I was a little surprised to hear that Salt Lake was rated the most vain, just because it was based off how many plastic surgeons there are per capita. Then I thought about it for a minute and counted how many of my wifes friends have had...umm enhancements done and realized that yes, Salt Lake is vain (so is most of the rest of the state too).

PS, I'm married to an identical twin too!!!