LDS Freedom Forum

Shadow- LOL

There was a time that my doctor's recommended reconstructive surgery, but I was afraid that God would strike me dead for being so vain, so I have not done it. LOL

I don't think all plastic surgery is bad. The kind I was referring to was hooter jobs, and not that all hooter jobs are uncalled for either, but, well, I'll shut up.

When I was in 9th grade, I had a plastic surgeon sew up a big gash I had on my forehead. He told me he could help my face too! I knew I was ugly but did he need business that bad, to tell a 9th grader he needed a face lift??? Yikes. I'm glad I wasn't a girl, trauma diverted.

Aussie -- remember how I quoted the DesNews article about the returned female missionaries who served in the army in Iraq -- and two of them committed suicide after being 'forced' to administer torture. The third wrote a book about her experiences in Iraq, being called a b----, etc. And several forum people complained about my posting this material and opposing torture! I rec'd a hint/rebuke from the forum guys to cease and desist -- I was very disappointed -- but about that time you told me about this forum. Here I am. Great group here (thank you all).

I only read about one of those young women. Do you have any links to their stories?

Dr. Jones, I'm not familiar with Johani Wolfgramm or his prophecy. Can you elaborate?
Thanks.

Yes... lots of boob jobs around here. Many surgeons have tummy tuck/boob job combo specials... not kidding.

Personally I don't want anyone to dig me up one day and find a couple baggies of salt water in there with me. Plus, can you imagine how the things will look when you're ninety? No thanks.

In the next world when archaeologists dig us up... fake nails, fake hair, fake boobs... all that plastic will confuse them. I guess just like the egyptians we like to bury ourselves with our treasures.

DrJones wrote:...But also on the Johani Wolfgramm prophecy/prediction...

Steve... I'm not familiar with this prophecy. Can you provide a link where I can read up on this or some information about it?

Just wish I could do something for good people like you and Col Flagg, salt of the earth people.).

Thanks... that was nice to say. I hope we get the opportunity to meet up some day... either for lunch some time in Utah County or when this earth life has come to an end and we're together on the other side of the veil with our Lord and Savior. I think the one thing that stands about you Steve is your mild-mannered, humble nature, as evidenced on all of the interviews or presentations I've seen you on regarding 9/11. It is disappointing that you're the only one with any name recognition in the LDS community to speak out against the deceit and evil running our government, but you've definitely earned my respect and admiration. I can't tell you how long my Dad and I yearned for SOMEBODY locally to speak out and call a spade a spade with respect to 9/11. Your courage and determination have certainly been a God-send in the effort to expose the truth.

Here's what I found about Wolfgramm (google "wolfgramm prophpecy")

Yohani Wolfgram

A dream that he had in 1989 seeing the future of America as told to a close friend.

It was a dream of the cleansing of America.

Here are a few salient points that he mentioned:

* The Big economic collapse which leads to chaos will occur in the last year of the 2nd term of the son of George Bush who will become president.

* There will be a great drought at about this same time all over the
country.

* Many in the Church will become unrighteous and apostatize

* There will be a nuclear bomb or bombs go off in Northern Utah that will
affect as far south as the Salt Lake Valley.

* Hundreds of millions of foreign troops will invade America.

* The main foreign force in the Utah area will be Chinese or Chinese looking troops mixed with Latin American troops.

* He said that in the third year of the second term of President Bush, the U.S. economy would collapse, which in turn would cause a series of events, including an invasion of foreign troops on U.S. soil.

* Someone commenting that the patriarch must mean that President Bush (the 1st Pres. Bush) would be re-elected. Patriarch Wolfgramm then replied (remember, this is 1989) that it wasn't that Pres. Bush, but that it was the son of Pres. Bush who would become president that he was referring to.

jbalm wrote:Here's what I found about Wolfgramm (google "wolfgramm prophpecy")

* The Big economic collapse which leads to chaos will occur in the last year of the 2nd term of the son of George Bush who will become president.

* There will be a great drought at about this same time all over the
country.

* Many in the Church will become unrighteous and apostatize

* There will be a nuclear bomb or bombs go off in Northern Utah that will
affect as far south as the Salt Lake Valley.

* Hundreds of millions of foreign troops will invade America.

* The main foreign force in the Utah area will be Chinese or Chinese looking troops mixed with Latin American troops.

It would be easy to see Chinese coming when their bills are not paid because the economy tanked. It is easy to imagine them coming to collect on their debt.

Wish he said who sent the nukes.....

Wow... I think I like living near a LOT of caves after seeing this...

jbalm wrote:Here's what I found about Wolfgramm (google "wolfgramm prophpecy")

Yohani Wolfgram

A dream that he had in 1989 seeing the future of America as told to a close friend.

It was a dream of the cleansing of America.

Here are a few salient points that he mentioned:

* The Big economic collapse which leads to chaos will occur in the last year of the 2nd term of the son of George Bush who will become president.

* There will be a great drought at about this same time all over the
country.

* Many in the Church will become unrighteous and apostatize

* There will be a nuclear bomb or bombs go off in Northern Utah that will
affect as far south as the Salt Lake Valley.

* Hundreds of millions of foreign troops will invade America.

* The main foreign force in the Utah area will be Chinese or Chinese looking troops mixed with Latin American troops.

* He said that in the third year of the second term of President Bush, the U.S. economy would collapse, which in turn would cause a series of events, including an invasion of foreign troops on U.S. soil.

* Someone commenting that the patriarch must mean that President Bush (the 1st Pres. Bush) would be re-elected. Patriarch Wolfgramm then replied (remember, this is 1989) that it wasn't that Pres. Bush, but that it was the son of Pres. Bush who would become president that he was referring to.

Wow. Sounds like 2008 would be the year of reckoning for this greedy, immoral and materialistic country. I found the nuclear bomb remark interesting because it indicates would be felt "south to the Salt Lake valley". What's up north? Hill Air Force base. It is a known target for Russian and Chinese nuclear missiles. With regard to the hundreds of millions of foreign troops invading America... I remember reading another prophecy from one of our former prophets (think it was John Taylor) who said that Chinese troops would invade America from the west coast and get as far as the Rocky Mountains before the Lord intervenes and stops their progression. I've been reading a LOT of articles recently from many financial and economic experts who are decrying the unfathomable impact these banks, credit, overall debt, mortgages, derivatives, etc. are going to do to our economy beginning in early '08. Many are in agreeance that the early phase of a banking collapse is underway and will become more pronounced and noticeable over the next year. We are definitely living in trying and interesting times.

Is there traceable information on this from far enough back? I'm such a skeptic.

A nuke at Hill would wipe out a lot of people, including maybe my family and most of our extended family... so tossing that idea around isn't very heartwarming.

I have wondered how long we could stay sealed up and what it would be like. I imagine I would wish for iodine tablets, a good radio, food and water of course (that didn't need to be cooked), a portable potty, some games and toys, a bucket and washcloth (soap, toothpaste) and some diapers and plastic bags to seal them in. So maybe I should make a kit.

How long would one stay "sealed up" following a nuke?

You would only need to stay sealed up for a few days before you could come out for a time. You'd still want to sleep in a sealed up area for a few more days. Nuke attacks are very survivable if you survive the first blast. We have an area in our basement under our porch cap that we'll stick around in for a few days. That's where all our food storage and water is stored too. After reading this, maybe I better tweak it a little bit more.

Fortunately the jet stream tends to move from the west to the east so fallout from Hill AFB would be away from most high populated areas.

I want to let you know that I have verified this prophecy. Meaning that I have spoken to people that knew him and know his family.

If they want to say more, I will leave that up to them.

Incredible!

I've heard this one before too. I'm Tongan myself so I'm sure we're related. (My grandmother was a Wolfgramm)
I've always felt something bad is going to happen next year before Bush steps down and I still believe so. I've also had many disturbing dreams myself many years ago but not as specific. I've had one about tidal waves, another about earthquakes, and another about nuclear attacks. What is weird about these dreams is that they all happened during 3 consecutive nights. I've never before or since had dreams like these that I will never forget so I believe that I will live to see these things. I wish I wrote them down because I'm sure I would've had more specific things that I now cannot remember.

Just got this info from Wikihow:

How to Survive a Nuclear Attack

A nuclear attack is a very real threat. Though the Cold War has been over for the past decade, the idea of thermonuclear warfare is still a reoccurring topic. What should you do? Where should you take shelter? I will attempt to explain this to the best of my knowledge.
You must learn as much as you can about the different types of Nuclear weapons, so you know exactly what you're going be up against;

Fission (A-Bombs): Fission bombs are the most basic form of nuclear weapons, and the principles are incorporated into many of the other types. The principle behind this type of bomb is to bombard a heavy Nuclei (usually Plutonium or Uranium) with neutrons, this forces the Uranium or Plutonium to split releasing a great amount of energy. The split particles hit other particles and cause those to split; thus creating a nuclear chain reaction.

Fusion (H-Bombs): Fusion Bombs require 2 lighter Nuclei (deuterium and tritium, isotopes of hydrogen) in order to combine them into a heavier unstable element, which releases immense amounts of energy. Fusion Weapons are also known as thermonuclear weapons, due to the fact that high temperatures are required to complete the fusion; hence, most of the time a small yield fission based weapon is detonated within the fusion weapon.

ERW (Neutron Bombs): Known as Enhanced Radiation Weapons, or Neutron Bombs. They are developed specifically to release most of their energy as neutron radiation, where as most nuclear weapons attempt to maintain the neutron within the fission/fusion process to help feed the overall blast;ERW's have a smaller blast(that of perhaps a large conventional weapon.) ERW radiation is capable of penetrating shelters(something other nukes can't do) and create a massive amount of radiation fallout.

SNW (Cobalt Bombs): Salted Nuclear Weapons are called the actual doomsday weapon. The reason behind the name is because, conventional nukes were "salted" with sodium-23; however the half-life for sodium-23 is only 15 hours. Therefore nuclear weapons are salted with Cobalt-60 whose half-life is 5 years; making it unpractical to wait out in shelters. Overall, the purpose of SNW's is to create long lasting nuclear fallout which can spread across the globe by the prevailing winds.

Now that you know what you're up against, its time for survival. Your first warning of a nuclear attack will most probably be an alarm or warning signal. At this point you must seek shelter immediately.
If this is not so, then your first warning will most probably be the blast itself. If you are within the vicinity of the blast(or ground zero), then your chances of survival are virtually non-existent; shelter or otherwise. If you are a few miles out you will have about 10-15 seconds until the heat wave hits you, and maybe 20-30 seconds until the shockwave. Under No Circumstances Should you Look Directly at the Fireball, you will be Blinded!

If shelter is impossible to reach then seek a depressed area nearby and lie face down, expose as little skin as possible. Even around 5 miles you will suffer 3rd degree thermal-burns, still at 20 miles the heat can burn the skin off your body. The winds itself will peak at around 600mph and will level anything or anybody caught in the open.

Be sure you are not surrounded by anything flammable or combustible, such as nylon or any sort of oil based material. Substances such as these will catch on fire from the heat.
You survived the initial blast, but its not the blast that amounts for the high number of deaths it's the radiation. There are 2 threats of radiation;

Initial Radiation: Is radiation released from the blast. This only effects anything within the radius of 1.0-1.5 miles with any bomb less than 1MT yield.

Residual Radiation: More commonly known as Radiation fallout. If the detonation was a surface blast or close enough for the fireball to hit the earth, then there will be large amounts of fallout. The dust an debris kicked into the atmosphere will rain down, and bring with it dangerous amounts of radiation. The fallout may rain down as contaminated black soot also known as "black rain," which is very fatal and may be of extreme temperature. Fallout WILL contaminate anything it lands on.

Before we continue we should also mention the types of radiation particles as well;

Alpha particles: These are the weakest and non-existent threat during an attack. Alpha particles will survive for only a couple inches in the air before they are absorbed by the atmosphere. They possess a minuscule threat from the exterior, however will be fatal if ingested or inhaled. Standard clothing will help protect you from Alpha particles.

Beta particles: These are faster and can penetrate further than Alpha particles. They will travel for up to 10 meters before they are absorbed into the atmosphere. Exposure to Beta particles is not fatal unless exposed for prolonged periods; which they may cause "Beta burns," almost like a painful sunburn. They pose a serious threat however to the eyes, should they be exposed for a prolonged period. Once again this is harmful if ingested or inhaled. Once again clothing will help prevent beta burns.

Gamma particles: Gamma particles are the most deadly of the bunch. They can travel for nearly a mile in the air and penetrate just about any kind of shielding. Therefore Gamma radiation will cause severe damage to the internal organs even as an external source. Sufficient shielding will be required.

Now you have that you have survived the blast and the initial radiation( for now at least, radiation symptoms have an incubation period), your most important task is to find Shelter against the burning black soot, which we said was fallout.
Try not to spend more than 5 minutes exposed to the Gamma radiation. If you are in a rural area try finding a cave, or fallen log which you can crawl into. Otherwise just dig a trench for you to lie in, with stacked earth around you.

Begin reinforcing your shelter from the inside. Do this by stacking dirt around the walls or anything else you can find. If you are in a trench then create a roof, only if the materials are nearby; you don't want to expose yourself when it is'nt necessary. Canvas from a parachute or tent will help stop fallout debris from piling on to you, though it will not stop the gamma rays.

Use this to help you determine the amount of material you need for adequate shielding against harmful particles( its one or the other, for example having 0.5ft of steel is as good as 2ft of rock, you wouldn't need both);
Steel: 0.5 feet (20 cm), Rock: 2-3ft (70-100 cm), Concrete: 2ft (70 cm), Earth/Wood:3-4ft (1-1.5 m), Ice:5-6ft (2 m), Snow:20-22ft (7 m).

Plan on staying in your shelter for a minimum of 200 hours or 8 days. The radioactive material has a Half-life that decays exponentially. For instance, after 7 hours the contamination will be 50% of what it was, after 14 hours the contamination will be 25% of what it was during maximum contamination, etc.

You will need rations to survive obviously, therefore you will eventually expose yourself to the radiation (unless you are in a specific shelter with food and water). Processed foods are okay to eat, so long as the container has no punctures and is relatively intact. Animals may be eaten but, they must be skinned carefully with the heart, liver and kidneys DISCARDED. Try not to eat meat that is close to the bone, for bone marrow retains radiation.
Plants which are in a "hot zone" are edible as well. Plants with edible roots, or undergrowth such as carrots, potatoes, etc. are highly recommended. Use an edibility test on the plants.

Open water may have received fallout particles and is harmful. Water from an underground source is your best bet, such as a underground spring or a covered well. Use water from streams and lakes only as a last resort. Create a filter by digging a hole about 1ft from the bank and drawing the water which seeps in. It may be cloudy or muddy allow the sediments to sit, then boil the water to ensure safety from bacteria. If you are in a building, it is usually safe to use the water. If there is not water (which there most likely won't be), you can use the water already in the pipes. To do this turn on the faucet at the highest point of the house to let in oxygen, then open a faucet at the lowest point of the house to drain the water. Boil or purify the water somehow.

Be sure to maintain all of your clothing including hats, gloves, goggles closed sleeve shirt etc. especially when venturing outside to help prevent Beta-burns.

Decontaminate yourself by shaking your clothes constantly, washing in any water will remove particles too. Be sure to wash any exposed skin, settled residue will cause burns overtime.
Treating a Radiation or Thermal burn;

Minor Burn: Should you or an individual receive a minor burn then immerse it in cold water until the pain subsides(usually 5 minutes).
If the skin starts to blister, char or break; wash it with cold water to remove any contaminants, then cover it with a sterile compress to prevent infection . DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BREAK THE BLISTERS!
If the skin does not blister, char or break; there will be no need to cover it, even if it may cover a large portion of the body(almost like a sunburn), instead wash the area and cover it with Vaseline or a solution of baking powder and water. If none of this is available, moist (uncontaminated) earth will do.

Severe Burn:This can become life threatening, everything becomes a factor; water loss, shock, lung damage, infection, etc. Follow these steps to treat a severe burn.
Protect the burn from further contamination.
If clothing covers the burn area then gently cut and remove the cloth from the burn. DO NOT try to remove cloth which has stuck or fused onto the burn. DO NOT try to pull clothes over the burn. DO NOT put any ointment on the burn.
Gently wash the burned area with water ONLY(on a regular burn you don't want to do this, however since this is a radiation/thermal burn you MUST remove the particles from the wound)
Put a sterile dressing over the burnt area. In a mass casualty situation(which there likely might be) a clean sheet may be used instead.

Prevent shock. Shock is the inadequate flow of blood to the vital tissues and organs. If untreated it can be fatal. Shock results from excessive blood loss, deep burns, or a reaction to the sight of a wound or blood. The signs are restlessness, thirst, pale skin, and rapid heartbeat. They may be sweating even if their skin feels cool and clammy. As it becomes worse they breath short fast gasps, with a stare of vacancy. To treat; maintain proper heartbeat and respiration by massaging the chest and positioning the person for adequate respiration. Loosen any constrictive clothing and reasure the person. Be firm yet gentle with self confidence.
If the person is conscious, is not vomiting, and has no abdominal/neck wound; give them the sodium chloride-sodium bicarbonate mixture(see first aid later in this article). If you do not have this use 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda, 1/2 teaspoon of salt, and quart of cool water. Or use a salt/water solution, and if you have no salt use water only. NEVER give warm water, it will cause vomiting!

Have the person consume the mixture slowly over a 1hour period. If they become nauseated stop giving them the solution, but keep it close by to have them continue later. This solution restores fluids and salts that the body is flushing out.

You will eventually encounter people with Radiation sickness, also called Radiation Syndrome. Radiation sickness is not contagious, so feel free to assist any who might need it.

It all depends on the amount of radiation the individual has been exposed to, here is a condensed version of the table;
Less than 5 RAD: no visible symptoms.
5-50 RAD: Decreased red blood cell count.
50-150 RAD:Decreased production of immunity cells, susceptible to infections, nausea, headache, and vomiting may be common. Recovery is possible within a month.
150-1,100 RAD: Severe blood changes noted. Within a couple weeks many of the exposed will die. Still births and spontaneous abortion is common, sterility as well. Symptoms are the same as before but with increased intensity. Death is mostly due to infection from the decreased immunity cells.
1200-2000 RAD: Death is nearly 100% at this stage, symptoms appear immediately. The gastrointestinal system is completely destroyed. There will be uncontrollable bleeding from the mouth, under the skin and the kidneys. Fatigue and general illness takes its toll. Symptoms are the same as before with increased intensity. Recovery is not possible.
More than 2000 RAD: The symptoms set in instantly, with the same symptoms but with increased intensity. Then the symptoms will cease for several days in the "walking ghost" phase. Then suddenly gastrointestinal cells are destroyed, with a loss of water and excessive bleeding. Death will set in with delirium and insanity. When the brain is no longer able to control the bodily functions such as breathing or blood-circulation, the individual will die. There is no medical therapy available to reverse the effects, medical help is for comfort only.

Therefore be on the look out for individuals developing the following symptoms;
Nausea
Vomiting
Diarrhea
Weight loss
Loss of appetite
Fatigue
Red itchy skin
Sore mouth
Sore throat
Hair loss
Recurrent infections
Bleeding
Anemia

Unfortunately there may come a time when you have to accept that a certain individual may no longer survive. It may sound harsh, but you should refrain from using up rations or supplies on someone who will soon die of Radiation sickness. Attempt to keep the rations for the fit and healthy, should supplies be in demand. Radiation sickness is prevalent among the very young, the old or sick.

Home Fallout Shelters can be created using a basement or cellar. However many new developments no longer have cellar, if that's the case then you should consider constructing a community shelter or a private one in your backyard. If you are creating one here are some guide lines;

Be sure there are absolutely no windows, and make sure that majority of your shelter is underground.

Existing basements or cellars will need additional reinforcement. Here are the minimums as declared by the Department of Defense.
4in of Concrete
5-6in of Brick
6in of Sand (bags or boxes, it doesnt matter)
7in of Earth
8in of hollow Cinder Blocks (6in if filled with sand)
10in of water
14in of Books/Magazines OR 18in of Wood

Make sure to have lots of food and water. Canned food or any sort of food that will not spoil is recommended. MREs are suggested.

First-Aid kit. Be sure to have an extensive one, not just the "taking the kids to the park" set of Bandaids. This is one recommended by the Department of Defense;
Sterile gauze dressings(4x7in)
Compress and Bandage(2x2in, 4 strips)
Gauze compress-type bandages(3in x 6yrds)
3 six yard rolls of 1in and 2in gauze bandage
Muslin-type compressed bandges(37x37x52in)
Gauze, petrolatum(3x26in,3 strips)
Adhesive tape(1in x 1yd, 100 strips)
Band-aid(3/4 x 3in, 100 strips)
Eye wash
Ammonia inhalation solution, aromatic ampules(1/3cc,10 units)
Povodon-iodine solution, non-ferrous, 10% (1/2 fluid oz.)
Sodium chloride(salt)-sodium bicarbonare mixture
Surgical razor/scalple
instruction sheet and contents.

The following are HIGHLY recommended items to be put in your kit, although you may need a doctors clearance for a couple of these.(many of these can be used to treat the symptoms of Radiation sickness);
Tweezers
Compazine suppositories(for nausea and vomiting)
Tincture of opium(for diarrhea)
Antacid tablets(for indigestion)
Bottle of aspirin(minor pain)
A narcotic(major pain)
Other non-first aid things you should have;
Sleeping bags
Lots of clothing(both warm and covering(when your outside), as well as cool(for when your inside)
Sunscreen and lotion
Toletries
Sunglasses
flashlights and batteries.
Radio and "walkie-takies"(no cellphones, the EMP from the blast will render it useless for a while, then the satellites will go down for national security so you will get no signal.)
"Self Powered" flashlights and "Self powered Radios", sealed in aluminum foil, other metal, so that the EMP does not render them inoperable. In a time like that try and find a usable battery.
Flares
Candles - Use only IF there are no gas leaks, explosive gas.
Glow sticks
Waterproof strike-anywhere matches
Smoke signals
Compass
Halazone tablets for water purification(this will not filter out radiation, just pathogens!)
Needle and thread
Canvas
Self defense weapon, preferably a gun.
Axe/Hatchet, Hand Saw, Skinning knife, Combat knife, and eating utensils.(be sure to take a whetstone or file to sharpen)
Pencil, paper and anything that will help pass the time.
A copy of this Wikihow


My question is, where it is not practical to make a fallout shelter a permanent fixture, how would one quickly construct one? We have a daylight basement. There is an area where our food storage is without windows, and we could seal it off with plastic sheeting, but we don't have piles of bricks or anything laying around, so how would we do this?

Army Of Truth wrote:I've heard this one before too. I'm Tongan myself so I'm sure we're related. (My grandmother was a Wolfgramm)
I've always felt something bad is going to happen next year before Bush steps down and I still believe so. I've also had many disturbing dreams myself many years ago but not as specific. I've had one about tidal waves, another about earthquakes, and another about nuclear attacks. What is weird about these dreams is that they all happened during 3 consecutive nights. I've never before or since had dreams like these that I will never forget so I believe that I will live to see these things. I wish I wrote them down because I'm sure I would've had more specific things that I now cannot remember.

What a small world we live in LOL

LoveChrist wrote:I want to let you know that I have verified this prophecy. Meaning that I have spoken to people that knew him and know his family.

If they want to say more, I will leave that up to them.

Incredible!

After LoveChrist and I spoke I set up my own account to reply to this post. I usually read over my husband’s shoulder.

Yesterday LoveChrist emailed me with this information and so I verified this information with her about Brother Wolfgramm. I have met him, he was a family Patriarch. I lived for 12 years in his nephew’s ward with quite a few Wolfgramm family members. The Wolfgramm family is an awesome family. We respect and love them.

I have personally received a blessing from Brother Wolfgramm. Now I will not tell you what was said or done because this is special to me. But I will tell you he is a very spiritual man. He is a prophet for his own family as we should all be for our own homes and families. And I know that the Lord listened to him.

As far as what is in the prophecy …

All I can say is what is says in Doctrine & Convents 38:30 “…but if ye are prepared ye shall not fear.” Get prepared and you shouldn’t fear what is coming. And my advice as to the wonderful list of the “How to Survive a Nuclear Attack” by ChelC. Please don’t forget the power of prayer and the power of faith in the Priesthood. I have personally seen miracles happen because of the Priesthood blessings that have been given!

Army Of Truth wrote:
I've heard this one before too. I'm Tongan myself so I'm sure we're related. (My grandmother was a Wolfgramm)
I've always felt something bad is going to happen next year before Bush steps down and I still believe so. I've also had many disturbing dreams myself many years ago but not as specific. I've had one about tidal waves, another about earthquakes, and another about nuclear attacks. What is weird about these dreams is that they all happened during 3 consecutive nights. I've never before or since had dreams like these that I will never forget so I believe that I will live to see these things. I wish I wrote them down because I'm sure I would've had more specific things that I now cannot remember.

Malo Army, my wife is Tongan too, she is also a Wolfgramm. Her family lives in Utah, AZ, Tx, NZ and of course Tonga. Her grandfather and grandmother's name is Makelani and Mele. Makelani is still alive, he's down here in NZ at the moment visiting. Whats your grandmothers name? my wife would probably be interested.

ChelC wrote: Follow that up with an adoption... certainly it's okay to have some debt there... maybe the tranny goes out on the car, and it's a Camry which costs 4K to fix... so you let it sit for a year, but when that year is crap you finally decide to take on a little more debt to fix it. Then you have an unexpected surgery with that crappy insurance you got because it was cheaper (so you could pay your bills) and now you've added medical bills to the heap. You're supposed to stay home with your kids, so of course you switch to part time and eventually quit, so you babysit the neighbor kid to make up a little bit. Problem is the neighbor kid breaks something every day he comes over so you're really not making money. That kid you adopted, he's well on his way to 3 years old already, and he needs a sibling. You decide to pay cash for the fertility stuff this time, and you set a strict limit since you're barely keeping up with the debt and don't want more. Lo and behold, you find something that works right away, and find out you are expecting. That crappy insurance, you still have that. Those fetal movements... yeah... those are actually contractions. You decide there is no way you can stay afloat when the new baby comes, so you sell your house... just before the holidays. You try preventing pre term labor but your doctor says those contractions are nothing. You move into your BILs basement for a month or so until you can close on a new crappier house... he could use the help with his heating bill, so you work out a deal. Your entire family gets the flu and you feel like your living in a dungeon with no privacy and you wake everyone up with your coughing and puking. You pace the floor because you have contractions, and you finally convince the doctor when you are dilating a couple months early to put you on something for those. You get fed up and move to an extended stay hotel but you feel obligated to help the BIL so you pay what you would have plus the hotel bill, and there goes Christmas.

Christmas eve is spent pacing - those pills aren't helping the contractions. You're sick of looking out the window at that truck stop every night. Two days (or was it one?) after Christmas, just a day before you are due to close on that hideous house that needed a few weeks of TLC to make it safe, what you've been warning everyone about happens... you're in labor. The title company and realtor are kind enough to come to the delivery room to sign the papers. Your baby is now only five weeks early, so he'll probably be okay, but just in case you have ten people standing around for the delivery, which happens after the doctors have spent two days giving you everything known to man to stop this baby from coming. They gave up, he's coming. He's born, but he's not breathing. You don't get more than a glimpse of his blue face and they rush him to the NICU. They let you see him for one second after they get him breathing and hook up a billion wires and tubes, and then they say, oh... you can't be in here, you've been coughing. A few hours later it's comfirmed you have the flu and won't be able to hold your baby at all until you are better.

That hotel? Well they only allow one child, so you have to move out. You can't move in the new house because it needs the underlayment, tile, carpet, paint, you name it replaced or you are not bringing a baby in that filth. So you move in the ILs basement. You can't take good care of the three year old because he's puking, you're puking, your parents are puking, and the only one not puking is your husband and FIL who are at the house day and night trying to make it liveable. Who's with the baby? No one. The hospital won't tell you anything other than your baby isn't the sickest one, so they don't have time for you... but get them that damn breast milk that won't come in you wretched excuse for a mother!

Wow... I'm still pissed about that experience. After a week we brought him home from the NICU and I had to wear a blue mask. A week later my husband finished the house... how he managed to do it all in two weeks is a miracle I can't figure out. We have spent two years now in this house fixing it up and can now happily say that after much sacrifice and heartache, and complete inconvenience and chaos for these two years, we are now debt free (other than the house). We did have to use some equity to get there unfortunately, and we had HUGE medical bills from the NICU. We also had a double whammy because our maximum out of pocket (which was a lot from the crap insurance) applied to our bills twice, because I went into the hospital on Dec. 27 and my son came home in January... two calendar years, two out of pocket maxes.

I am sorry. That must have been really tough. I was a basket case when my day-old baby had to go back to the hospital for a few days with jandice.

You are right about the debt. It piles up so quickly. My brother who lives in Georgia just had his septic tank line back up and had raw sewage flood his basement. Right after getting that fixed, a second clog was found between the septic tank and the drain field and cost him $6000 to fix. Merry Christmas.

Thanks ChelC for the A-bomb information. I wonder how much it would cost to have an underground shelter built in the back yard?

ugh -- our furnace went out... but we got it fixed. My wife had just prayed that we might know what to do to be better prepared... Guess that furnace was about to go out, LOL.

1. About last April, I spoke to a friend in Idaho Falls with first-hand acquaintance with Johani Wolfgramm ABOUT A DOZEN YEARS AGO. He confirmed this part of the prophecy:

* The Big economic collapse which leads to chaos will begin in the third year of the 2nd term of the son of George Bush who will become president, with effects clearly noted in Spring of the following year.

He spoke to Bro. Wolfgramm while Clinton was president as I recall him saying.

My family, many of us any way (7 children, 4 married now) are preparing, trying to be ready by April 2008 at the latest. A son and I are looking at an underground housing complex perhaps -- would not have to worry about pipes freezing either!

As I recall, the following was agreed on by the IF brother as well: Many in the Church will turn and apostatize (evidently after the economic collapse). Wonder what would cause that...? Economic hardship? (thinking here of the economic collapse in 1837 or 39 was it, and the widespread apostasy in Kirtland...)

Let's watch for each other!

Interesting. My own personal experiences tell me to get ready by April/May too.

The only place I have been able to get wheat here is at $21.00 for 50 lbs.

We went to an herbal shop they had one 25 lb bag and that was it. (it was $17 for it too) So we went to the Mennenites, and got what they had there.

We are still trying to get enough for our family for a year supply.

We will have to go up to the Amish stores next. They are further away, but still cheaper then the cost of shipping from Idaho or somewhere.

LC -- the last time I looked at wheat at Macey's in Orem (maybe three weeks ago), the price there had gone up -- to about $19 per 50 pound bag. I bought hard red wheat at Lehi roller mills about 2.5 months ago for a little under $10 per 50 pound bag, but I don't think that price is easy to find around here anymore... (Perhaps someone knows where wheat is still cheap like that...)

I understand corn is going up also... we bought popcorn for popping and for grinding.

Gold is going up, too. About $640 in August, $840 now. Silver is up, too, about $14.76/ounce now. Wow.

Would like to see how wheat compares percentage-wise. In any case, time to get those greenbacks into hard commodities starting with food (and out of the stock market) -- IMHO!

Those who see what is happening, who are aware, are prepared or will prepare now (as you are doing LC) and not wait till April or June 2008... Do you think the LDG are just sitting on their dollars in banks? Why is the dollar falling?

They have already moved them to a different off shore location and currency as have many corporations.

There are now actresses and Actors that are demanding that they be paid in Euros and NOT dollars.

Some of our wheat is over 30 years old, some over 20 years old, and some in cans around 10 years old. Beans around 20 years old. Also some newer lots. What's been stored inside our house is probably still OK, but what we had to put in the garage will have seen temps over 120F.