4 Nephi Zion

[SpeedRacer]

I have a question. After Zion was established among the Nephites, all things were in common and all were partakers of the Heavenly Gift, why were they not translated up like the people of Enoch? Or would someone contend that some of them were?

[Rand]

I think this is a good question. I believe the level we must get at to receive translation is to walk with the Savior as the City of Enoch or the City Established by Melchizedek. So even though they lived the law of consecration, did they live to the level that they enjoyed the Person of the Savior as a guest?

[SpeedRacer]

I think this is a good question. I believe the level we must get at to receive translation is to walk with the Savior as the City of Enoch or the City Established by Melchizedek. So even thought they lived the law of consecration, did they live to the level that they enjoyed the Person of the Savior as a guest?

Is there a possibility that God translated the City of Enoch because he could not justly kill them in the flood, and that translation is only required for very special circumstances?

[dewajack]

I believe you are correct, translation happens for a purpose, but I quickly admit I know little about the subject. I believe people today are "born again" and have their baptism of fire, which is needed by all of us, but it doesn't mean, in my opinion, that they become translated beings. I have no idea if having the "keys" of translation would lead to all sanctified persons receiving translation. Even though SBSION's typing style is rather annoying, I appreciate his repetitious allusions to the "mighty change," which is the bottom line.

[TheProfessor]

One difference we see with the 4 Nephi Zion is that it was essentially initiated by the Savior (granted it took them a little while to get it going, but it was the visit of the Savior that made that society possible).

Based on the accounts we have, Enoch and Melchizedek brought about Zion without a precursory visit by the Savior.

I don't know what difference it makes, but it feels qualitatively different to me.

[mes5464]

I think this is a good question. I believe the level we must get at to receive translation is to walk with the Savior as the City of Enoch or the City Established by Melchizedek. So even thought they lived the law of consecration, did they live to the level that they enjoyed the Person of the Savior as a guest?

Would someone provide reference to how we know that Salem (the city established by Melchizedek) was taken into heaven (translated)?

[TheProfessor]

JST Gen. 14:

33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.

34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;

35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.

36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

The bolded type is generally interpreted as these folks being translated, although I don't believe there is an explicit statement to that effect.

Here is what Hyrum Andrus writes about the above passage in Principles of Perfection:

This statement reveals the spiritual standard which Melchizedek and his people achieved. They wrought righteousness and "obtained heaven" -- a state where they enjoyed the glory and power of God. This means that as a people, they traversed the path from their fallen spiritual state in mortality to the presence of God; they made their calling and election sure to celestial glory and received the blessings of the second Comforter. Having achieved these things, they "sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken." The above statement does not say expressly that they were translated, but it does indicate that the
necessary requisites were met to receive that blessing.

In later ages, the righteous sought not only to emulate Enoch but also Melchizedek and his people. Having admonished his brethren to apply the gospel in their lives so that they could enter into the rest of the Lord, Alma said: "Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever." Alma then stressed the purpose of the gospel, which was that the obedient "might enter into the rest of the Lord."

[Rand]

I just reread 4 Nephi, and just didn't see anything that gave me any insight in to this question.

I did however find a couple other questions.
v 27 ...yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.
Hmmm makes me wonder about the probable soon to come demand of sharing the ordinance of celestial marriage to all groups in view of political correctness.

v 46...and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic.
For those of us who have precious metals to store up for a worse day, does this condemn this approach to preparedness?

[JohnnyL]

Wow, I was just thinking the same thing that day!

One reason was they were to remain to fulfill prophecy given from Nephi, Alma, Samuel, etc.

[dewajack]

I just went through and read the latter part of 4 Nephi again and was startled to see that in a span of roughly 30 years, they went from their Zion society to a very different place. And within another 30 years, the ways of Gadianton were spreading. It surely doesn't take long. It makes me wonder how widespread are the ways of Gadianton in our own society, seeing that its been 130 years since the restoration and we haven't achieved a Zion society similar to 4 Nephi? We talk about these things often on this forum, but things must be much deeper and infested than we can imagine.

Also, I did a search on the word "sacred," at lds.org covering only the Book of Mormon, which isn't all inclusive, but most of the time, it refers to the plates, or record. It's no wonder we, as people, are under condemnation. I must speed up and intensify my study of this sacred book of scripture.

Lastly, read Alma 9:20-21. Alma mentions "translation." The footnote alludes to the word referring to the translation of records, but personally, I don't see it this way. It seems to me the Nephites were more familiar with translation than we can imagine and Alma is referring to this in my opinion.

[JohnnyL]

I just went through and read the latter part of 4 Nephi again and was startled to see that in a span of roughly 30 years, they went from their Zion society to a very different place. And within another 30 years, the ways of Gadianton were spreading. It surely doesn't take long. It makes me wonder how widespread are the ways of Gadianton in our own society, seeing that its been 130 years since the restoration and we haven't achieved a Zion society similar to 4 Nephi? We talk about these things often on this forum, but things must be much deeper and infested than we can imagine.

Also, I did a search on the word "sacred," at lds.org covering only the Book of Mormon, which isn't all inclusive, but most of the time, it refers to the plates, or record. It's no wonder we, as people, are under condemnation. I must speed up and intensify my study of this sacred book of scripture.

Lastly, read Alma 9:20-21. Alma mentions "translation." The footnote alludes to the word referring to the translation of records, but personally, I don't see it this way. It seems to me the Nephites were more familiar with translation than we can imagine and Alma is referring to this in my opinion.

Then you have other times in the BoM where people go from righteous to unrighteous in like two years... That's even scarier.