Moroni's promise

[superslob]

Hello

This is Moronis promise:

"Moroni 10:3": 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in
God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the
children of men, from the creation of Adam even down unto the time that ye shall receive these things,
and ponder it in your hearts.
"Moroni 10:4": 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God,
the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere
heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the
Holy Ghost.
"Moroni 10:5": 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

About 70 years ago Edgar Cayce responded to questions with regards to soul growth. These readings were known as the study group readings. He had some difficualty in presenting information in regular English in the sense that it isn't always fluent. In reading 262-23 he mentioned a process which has some similarities to the Nephi promise in the book of mormon.

12. (Q) [341]: How should we explain to others how to interpret their experiences as signs of development towards a true realization of fellowship?
(A) This has been given in how ones may answer their experiences, have an answer to their experiences, in the way of TRAINING the child (for we all are children) in its development. Or, as this: When an experience of self is in question, then ask self in the mental being so that the answer may be yes or no, and with sincerity. Then, whether the answer is yes or no, as to any question with spiritual forces, then ACCEPT that. Then in meditation and prayer ASK the Spirit whether THAT answer RECEIVED in the mental is yes or no, and KNOW the Spirit answers! Doubt not! For he that looks back, or doubts, is worse than the infidel. Remember Lot's wife!

The major difference between the above and Nephi's promise is the term "experience of self". According to the above the process wasn't meant to unravel the secrets of the universe. Both the book of mormon and the church encourage prayer as a means of uncovering secrets such as the historicity of the book of mormon and which church is true etc.
The way I interpret the "experience of self" is that it involves the relationships of the individual. The questions need to be about your relationship with others.
Getting back to the Moroni promise if it is good in the area of archeology then what other topics would it be good for. Would help with things like the stock market for instance?

[JohnnyL]

Hello

This is Moronis promise:

"Moroni 10:3": 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in
God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the
children of men, from the creation of Adam even down unto the time that ye shall receive these things,
and ponder it in your hearts.
"Moroni 10:4": 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God,
the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere
heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the
Holy Ghost.
"Moroni 10:5": 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

About 70 years ago Edgar Cayce responded to questions with regards to soul growth. These readings were known as the study group readings. He had some difficualty in presenting information in regular English in the sense that it isn't always fluent. In reading 262-23 he mentioned a process which has some similarities to the Nephi promise in the book of mormon.

12. (Q) [341]: How should we explain to others how to interpret their experiences as signs of development towards a true realization of fellowship?
(A) This has been given in how ones may answer their experiences, have an answer to their experiences, in the way of TRAINING the child (for we all are children) in its development. Or, as this: When an experience of self is in question, then ask self in the mUnl being so that the answer may be yes or no, and with sincerity. Then, whether the answer is yes or no, as to any question with spiritual forces, then ACCEPT that. Then in meditation and prayer ASK the Spirit whether THAT answer RECEIVED in the mental is yes or no, and KNOW the Spirit answers! Doubt not! For he that looks back, or doubts, is worse than the infidel. Remember Lot's wife!

The major difference between the above and Nephi's promise is the term "experience of self". According to the above the process wasn't meant to unravel the secrets of the universe. Both the book of mormon and the church encourage prayer as a means of uncovering secrets such as the historicity of the book of mormon and which church is true etc.
The way I interpret the "experience of self" is that it involves the relationships of the individual. The questions need to be about your relationship with others.
Getting back to the Moroni promise if it is good in the area of archeology then what other topics would it be good for. Would help with things like the stock market for instance?

Unfortunately, Moroni's promise doesn't seem very good for archeology currently. It does work for the content of the Book of Mormon. Does it work for other things? It might. Would it work for the stock market? Probably not.

[superslob]

Hello johnnyl,

After looking up archeology in the dictionary I perhaps should have used another word because archeology is the study of past civilizations using the scientific method. Moronis promise involves reading the book and then praying about it. Why would the history of the Nephites be special? If the process will work for determining whether or not a history of the Nephites is true why won't it work for any history. Why won't it work for a stock market report to determine if the numbers were fudged. The process presented by Edgar Cayce with regards to it being related to your experiences seems like a lot more sense. All the secrets of the universe type stuff needs to be discovered using the scientific method while guidance for our daily lives can be obtained through prayer.

[Henmasher]

It works in all instances. Revelation is revelation, and the source of knowledge is indeed the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[JohnnyL]

Hello johnnyl,

After looking up archeology in the dictionary I perhaps should have used another word because archeology is the study of past civilizations using the scientific method. Moronis promise involves reading the book and then praying about it. Why would the history of the Nephites be special? If the process will work for determining whether or not a history of the Nephites is true why won't it work for any history. Why won't it work for a stock market report to determine if the numbers were fudged. The process presented by Edgar Cayce with regards to it being related to your experiences seems like a lot more sense. All the secrets of the universe type stuff needs to be discovered using the scientific method while guidance for our daily lives can be obtained through prayer.

It's often a matter of salvation. Nephite history isn't one of those matters, but the Book of Mormon and what happened is.

[superslob]

Hello henmasher and johnny l,

>>>It works in all instances. Revelation is revelation, and the source of knowledge is indeed the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.<<<

I agree that we will get an answer for whatever we pray for, and for some people getting an answer is as easy as falling off a log. The doubts I have concern whether the answer received will be literally accurate. For example we could both pray with regards to whether or not there are people living on the moon. Would we both receive the same answer. How about if an individual prayed about it a few hundred years ago before science has been able to tell us that there is no one living on the moon. Are you sure he would receive the same answer we would?

>>>It's often a matter of salvation. Nephite history isn't one of those matters, but the Book of Mormon and what happened is.<<<

Could you give an example of something from the book of mormon that is a matter of salvation. Would this item, regardless of what it is, require you to believe in the historicity of the book of mormon in order to be applicable. In other words can you just look at this item and decide within yourself that this item (which is required for salvation) is true without believing in historicity.

[Kingdom of ZION]

There are four types of Prayers or step of progression in communing with G_d:

1) When we do not know (for sure) whether there is a G_d or not, we start by attempting to communicate through prayer to see if there is one. And the Father just being happy to hear from you, lets you know that He is there and He is listening.

2) When after a while the Father wants you to start showing forth faith and gratitude, rather than continually asking for what you want and need, you are taught through the Spirit to basically say please and thank you. This needs to be reflected in your prayers to continue supplicating the Father. Here you ask what is true or not true, having faith the Father will answer and you thank Him for hearing your pleas.

3) The next step is to ask what the Father would have you do or not do, when you are praying and supplication the Lord (Adonai) as to what you want to do. Most people never get to this level of Prayer... asking the Father's opinion. Because after asking you are under obligation to then follow His counsel He has given to you!

4) And the highest form of Prayer (type of prayer not outwardly form) is to pray asking the Father what you can do for the Father. This is reach by only a few individuals as the Father must know you will do His will before He reveals it unto you, or great condemnation will follow. Hence only those with such a relationship arrive to this level of communion with G_d.

So, just asking whether something is true or not is a second level type prayer or how most Second Estater's generally pray. Just having the faith necessary to receive an answer is not receiving the "Further Light and Knowledge" that Father promises to send... those who continue to seek Him!

[Etosha]

I agree!

[superslob]

Hello kingdom of zion,

I suppose I agree with number one. Number two is pretty much what we are talking about in asking if this or that is true. Can we expect an accurate answer if the item being prayed about is what I like to call a "secret of the universe" type question such as are people living on the moon. I claim that two equally fervent people could get opposite answers.
With regards to 3 and 4 Israel allowed individuals the opportunity to take the nazarite vow. Once taken God fully expected the individual to live up to his vow and if for some reason he failed he was to cut his hair and start over until he completed it. These were to be free will vows in the sense that there was no outside party requiring an individual to make this vow.
In the story of Edgar Cayce, while he was a boy around 5 he made a vow to read the bible once for every year of his life. Finally at about nine or ten he finally caught up with his years. It was then that the angel appeared to him, and the rest is history.

[Kingdom of ZION]

I claim that two equally fervent people could get opposite answers.

Shalom to you, and the answer to your claim is YES! When the Messiah ask the Father to allow Him to raise Lazarus, the Father said yes. If you or I were to ask about raising a love one of ours, most likely He would say no! That would be a judgement call on your part as to if your equally fervent!

Lets make it more personal and not use the Messiah [a Fifth Estate Being] but two people that more is known about. Joseph Smith [a Senior Fourth Estate Being] could ask and receive clear answers, yet Brigham Young [a Junior Fourth Estate Being] who was equally fervent for the kingdom, had received very few revelations in his lifetime. I doubt very much it was a lack on Brigham Young's part for the willingness to ask! If the two Beings are not at the same place in the Path of Eternal Progression, they will generally receive different answers... because of their different capacities to embrace the kingdom.

Can two people on the same place on the path receive different answers? YES, it also depends on earth years of physical ages, running before you are sent, and sins yet to be repented of [things that would stand in the way!].

[Matthew.B]

I claim that two equally fervent people could get opposite answers.

Lets make it more personal and not use the Messiah [a Fifth Estate Being] but two people that more is known about. Joseph Smith [a Senior Fourth Estate Being] could ask and receive clear answers, yet Brigham Young [a Junior Fourth Estate Being] who was equally fervent for the kingdom, had received very few revelations in his lifetime. I doubt very much it was a lack on Brigham Young's part for the willingness to ask! If the two Beings are not at the same place in the Path of Eternal Progression, they will generally receive different answers... because of their different capacities to embrace the kingdom.

Off-topic question:

How do you know where Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were on their path of eternal progression? By the callings they held in the Church?

[Kingdom of ZION]

How do you know where Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were on their path of eternal progression? By the callings they held in the Church?

The calling JS held... yes and no. A Dispensation King is always a Senior Fourth Estate Being or older, such as Adam and the Messiah. The Dispensation Prophet is always a Junior Fourth Estate Being or older. In BY case, him looking to Adam as his Eternal Father and statements like we have been or need to be placed "into the refiners fire seven times", reveals where he was or is on that Path. As well as praying about it and inquiring of the Lord [Adonai] where about both men were.

Shalom

[tmac]

Great discussion. And great list, KoZ, outlining the steps or progression of prayer, and I believe that it makes a lot of sense. My question is what to do with/about it.

Although I am interested in the prayer and revelation patterns of "higher estate" individuals like prophets, etc., in my desire to bridge the gap between theory and reality in my own life, I have a lot more questions about effective prayer for someone in the second estate, etc. What I would like to discuss, from a practical standpoint, is how to progress from say, step/level 2 to level 3, etc.

I do get the sense, as you say KoZ, that the vast majority of people, even despite their apparent sincerity, etc., probably never progress much beyond level 2, and do not receive anywhere near the level of Divine guidance in their lives that is possible.

On my part, I will have to say that while I do have a firm conviction in Moroni's promise, because I have experienced it, but I can't say that I always have that experience. While I know that the Lord does make truth known to us, I have also had the experience of earnestly seeking, not getting much direction, and feeling like I am really left to flounder. Any time I have experienced that sort of thing in the past, once I made it to the other side of the process things felt a lot better, but but in the middle, it can feel fairly murky and confusing. I'm in one of those spots right now, and don't know what to make of it. I wish it was just simply a matter of praying and having the Lord reveal clear answers to me. I am interested in gaining a better understanding of all that.

[superslob]

Hello tmac,

>>>What I would like to discuss, from a practical standpoint, is how to progress from say, step/level 2 to level 3, etc. <<<

It's unfortunate that you aren't living in biblical times. The school of the prophets was most likely started by Samuel and the prophets of that day passed on thier skills to the next generation. I personally have found that time spent studying the dreams I have while sleeping has been beneficial.