Priesthoods...

[Kingdom of ZION]

I have discussed this topic many times with many people in and out of the LDS Church. Peoples beliefs are all over the place on this subject, but what really matters is what the Lord [Adonia] wills and has said on the subject. I can find multiple references to the Arronic Priesthood remaining, but not one as to the higher Priesthood remaining on the earth. I can find quotes as to the attributes and powers that will follow the Higher Priesthood, and I can also find accounts that these attributes and powers did originally follow Joseph Smith and his fellow brethren. However, these accounts have all but vanished around the turn of the century... like water poured out on hot dry sand.

If Melchizedek Priesthood comes by Oath and Covenant, then where and when is this Oath and Covenant taken? And if you change that Oath and Covenant, is there a change in Priesthood? It seems to me that that is what Joseph Smith taught.

Shalom

[Rand]

I can also find accounts that these attributes and powers did originally follow Joseph Smith and his fellow brethren. However, these accounts have all but vanished around the turn of the century... like water poured out on hot dry sand.

If Melchizedek Priesthood comes by Oath and Covenant, then where and when is this Oath and Covenant taken? And if you change that Oath and Covenant, is there a change in Priesthood? It seems to me that that is what Joseph Smith taught.

Shalom

If you change the oath is the Priesthood no longer valid? No, as long as that oath continues to be administered under the influence of the keys to the priesthood and is abided by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
This is temple related, but then again, that is to be discussed within the Temple. Come home and we can talk about it, in the temple.

[Kingdom of ZION]

If you change the oath is the Priesthood no longer valid? No, as long as that oath continues to be administered under the influence of the keys to the priesthood and is abided by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
This is temple related, but then again, that is to be discussed within the Temple. Come home and we can talk about it, in the temple.

I was not really looking for answers so much as what others know and their opinions. It is clear that you know what the two part covenants are. I agree with you, if your translating the covenants into another language and such. But if you change it materially, Joseph Smith was emphatic:

"The Earth Defiled

Christ said to His disciples (Mark 16:17 and 18), that these signs should follow them that believe: -- "In my name shall they cast out
devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover;" and also, in connection with this, read 1st Corinthians, 12th chapter. By the foregoing testimonies we may look at the Christian world and see the apostasy there has been from the apostolic platform; and who can look at this and not exclaim, in the language of Isaiah, "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant?""

"The Priesthood is everlasting -- without beginning of days or end of years; without father, mother, etc. If there is no change of ordinances there is no change of Priesthood. Wherever the ordinances of the Gospel are administered, there is the Priesthood."

"If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord.
Where there is no change of priesthood, there is no change of ordinances, says Paul."
[TPJS]

If you boil the two covenants down, it deals with Marriage and Consecration... Celestial Marriage was changed, and Consecration was abandoned. I just see what Joseph saw in Christianity, anew. And I know of no revelation that goes against the High Priesthood from being removed, that is unless someone can enlighten me of such.

Shalom Rand

[ldsfireguy]

Kingdom,

You certainly do have some Fundamental perceptions of the gospel of Christ.

[Kingdom of ZION]

Kingdom,

You certainly do have some Fundamental perceptions of the gospel of Christ.

No, I have said from the beginning that I believe that there is going to be a New Dispensation, that the Gospel will be given back to the house of Yesrael. The Gentiles had to have lost the Priesthood and rejected His Gospel to justify Adonia for doing such a think, even though it was prophesied that the Gentiles would reject it... from the beginning.

I wrote this to a person recently: Apostasy: means to fall away from truths that were once held to be true. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected those truths. A Church Apostasy is when it formally disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a original teachings or revelations received or revealed to a church or religion.

In D&C 130:14-17, Joseph said:
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

So the Lord was saying that IF Joseph was alive on December 23, 1890, the Messiah would come! Now Adonia knew that he would not be alive, but ALL of His words have life in them. So, what was different in 1890? Then was the last "Thus saith the Lord" Revelation received in the Church and what did the Lord tell the Church and His Priesthood not to do and things they must do? Did they follow the Lord's command? They have received dozens of revelations [many from 1880-1889] that have never been canonized, why have they refused to publish them? The Church received over a hundred and fifty revelations in the first 59 years. Why has it been 110 years since they have received one 'Thus Saith the Lord' revelation?

But the problem is, the fruits of their actions is the key to discerning what the Lord though about their actions that really matters! Sadness, great sadness is the only thing that I feel about this. In the 1880's the Messiah had been appearing to the Indian nations and teaching them the Ghost Dance and promising them if they danced this dance faithfully, all their lands and love ones would be returned to them. The Indian Agents who witnessed this, made records and the US Government stopped them. The Sioux were so determined to keep this commandment, that they opened fire on unarmed men, women and children on that reservation and killed them [in 1890]. Out of this came sitting Bull and the Little Bighorn. The Messiah was showing forth signs that He was preparing to fight the battles of the Saint's and Zion. But the Saints lacked faith and courage! Had JS been there, he would not have issued a Manifesto to stop living the Mew and Everlasting Covenant. And the Messiah would have come... but it was not the plan. The Gospel must go to the Jews next, as the B of M says in it preface. The first must be last, and the last must be first.

Shalom

[Rand]

If you change the oath is the Priesthood no longer valid? No, as long as that oath continues to be administered under the influence of the keys to the priesthood and is abided by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
This is temple related, but then again, that is to be discussed within the Temple. Come home and we can talk about it, in the temple.

If you boil the two covenants down, it deals with Marriage and Consecration... Celestial Marriage was changed, and Consecration was abandoned. I just see what Joseph saw in Christianity, anew. And I know of no revelation that goes against the High Priesthood from being removed, that is unless someone can enlighten me of such.

Shalom Rand

KoZ, I would not agree that the two covenants have been changed. Plural Marriage is not actively practiced, but then again, it wasn't practiced in the Book of Mormon times either. Celestial Marriage is still actively practiced. In the last conference Elder Eyring announced that the law of consecration is now called the welfare program. In the past it was actively promoted, now the Lord will inspire people to live it individually. No real shift in the Priesthood aspect of of covenant. And there is much more that goes on in the temple than those two aspects.

I think what you are saying is that you don't see the type of [power manifest any more. Is that a part of your contention? Blessings.

[HeirofNumenor]

So If I understand correctly all that you are saying - the gist of it is that the LDS Church is now longer divinely led, that it has defacto rejected the fundamentals, formally (if unstated) apostatized from what the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith - largely because:

polygamy was ended
consecration no longer lived
revelations no longer published/lack of outright "thus saith the Lord" declarations
no longer any obvious oath when receiving the Priesthood

These are all just from this thread. Is there anything I missed?

I also sense that by your statements it is not so much the members who caused this apostasy, but this falling away that you see if primarily the fault of high LDS leadership - at least beginning with Wilford Woodruff and the manifesto in 1890... is that correct?

Just trying to ascertain clearly where you are coming from, and what your position actually is...

[creator]

...Celestial Marriage was changed, and Consecration was abandoned...

We're still living "Celestial Marriage", it was not changed.

Perhaps the United Order was abandoned but the Law of Consecration has not been abandoned.

[Original_Intent]

...Celestial Marriage was changed, and Consecration was abandoned...

We're still living "Celestial Marriage", it was not changed.

Perhaps the United Order was abandoned but the Law of Consecration has not been abandoned.

Isn;t it interesting how often the UO and consecration are confused. I think the lesson of the UO is that consecration can only be done by the individual, it can't be implemented at the institutional level (in my opinion).

I'd go so far as to say it is possible to sacrifice all of your time, talents, etc. and still not be consecrating, just as Cain did not practice the law of sacrifice.

[dewajack]

Here are some interesting quotes on Priesthood:

A sermon of Josephs Heb 7 chap Salem is Shiloam

Those who limit the designs of God as concerted by the grand council of H cannot obtain the Knowledge of God & I do not know but I may say they will drink in the Damnation of their souls- I Prophecy that all the powers of Earth & Hell shall never be able to overthrow this Boy for I have obtained it by promise- There are 3 grand principles or orders of Priesthood portrayed in this chapter
1st Levitical which was never able to administer a Blessing but only to bind heavy burdens which neither they nor their father able to bear
2 Abrahams Patriarchal power which is the greatest yet experienced in this church
3d That of Melchisedec who had still greater power even power of an endless life of which was our Lord Jesus Christ which also Abraham obtained by the offering of his son Isaac which was not the power of a Prophet nor apostle nor Patriarch only but of King & Priest to God to open the windows of Heaven and pour out the peace & Law of endless Life to man & No man can attain to the Joint heirship with Jesus Christ with out being administered to by one having the same power & Authority of Melchisedec Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.
(Franklin D. Richards August 27, 1843)

A.M. at the Grove. Prest. J. preached on Hebrews c 7. After reading a letter from Thos. Carlin to S. Rigdon and making some remarks about it. He shewed that the word "Salem" is a wrong translation it should be "Shalome" signifying peace. He prophecied that "not all the powers of hell or earth combined can ever overthrow this boy" for he had a promise from the eternal God. He spoke concerning the priesthood of Melchisedek shewing that the sectarians never propossed to have it consequently never could save any one and would all be damned together. He showed that the power of the Melchisek P'd was to have the power of an "endless lives." he showed that the everlasting covenants could not be broken, and by the sacrifice required of Abraham the fact that when God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man and he refuses to receive it he will be damned. -mentioning the case of the Israelites praying that God would speak to Moses & not to Them-in consequense of which he cursed them with a carnal law.
(William Clayton August 27, 1843)

"All Priesthood is Melchizedek, but there are different portions or degrees of it." (TPJS p. 180)


“Br. Joseph Smith jr. said that the order of the Highpriesthood is that they have power given them to seal up the Saints unto eternal life. And said it was the privilege of every Elder present to be ordained to the Highpriesthood’ ( minutes of Oct. 25, 1831).

[sbsion]

I think you have forgotten.........Shem, Moses, John, three Nephites, and others who still lurk with FULL PRIESTHOOD authority and senority.... 8-|

[dewajack]

I think you have forgotten.........Shem, Moses, John, three Nephites, and others who still lurk with FULL PRIESTHOOD authority and senority.... 8-|

Great point, D&C 49:8 is a case in point

[Kingdom of ZION]

This may be germane to our discussion here. It is a Prophesy from Joseph Smith, Jun. himself of our current state of affairs:

The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter
shop and stood by the turning lathe. I went and got my map for him. "Now," he
said, "I will show you the travels of this people." He then showed our travels
thou Iowa, and said, "Here you will make a place for the winter; and here you
will travel west until you come to the valley of the Great Salt Lake! You will
build cities to the North and to the South, and to the East and to the West;
and you will become a great and wealthy people in that land. But, the United
States will not receive you with the laws which God desires you to live, and
you will have to go to where the Nephites lost their power. They worked in the
United Order for 166 years, and the Saints have got to become proficient in
the laws of God before they can meet the Lord Jesus Christ, or even the city
of Enoch." He said we will not travel the shape of the horse shoe for there we
will await the action of the government. Placing his finger on the map, I
should think about where Snowflake, Arizona is situated, or it could have been
Mexico, he said, "The government will not receive you with the laws that God
designed you to live, and those who are desirous to live the laws of God will
have to go South. You will live to see men arise in power in the Church who
will seek to put down your friends and the friends of our Lord and Savior,
Jesus Christ. Many will be hoisted because of their money and the worldly
learning which they seem to be in possession of; and many who are the true
followers of our Lord and Savior will be cast down because of their poverty.
There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called
the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to
war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the
Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and
means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, "Let's divide up
the lands of the United States," then the people of the U.S. will unite and
swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided.
Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the
U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep
on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give
up--when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the
American Army from [20] defeat and ruin. And they will say, `Brethren, we are
glad you have come; give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.' Then you
will have friends, but you will save the country when its liberty hangs by a
hair, as it were."
[Mosiah Hancock's Journal, pg. 19-20]

Shalom

[ldsfireguy]

Fellow forum members, methinks I see a wolf sporting a lambswool slicker. I could believe that it was just honest seeking and sharing if there were not such a well-defined agenda, with famous quotes, "spiritual experiences" (a la Mosiah Hancock) and arguments that have been used to justify the authority of many fundamentalist groups since 1890.

Of course they often end up killing each other off, buy they destroy many lives in the process.

There is no secret doctrine, no apostasy among the brethren, no need for a restoration.

[HeirofNumenor]

Fellow forum members, methinks I see a wolf sporting a lambswool slicker. I could believe that it was just honest seeking and sharing if there were not such a well-defined agenda, with famous quotes, "spiritual experiences" (a la Mosiah Hancock) and arguments that have been used to justify the authority of many fundamentalist groups since 1890.

Of course they often end up killing each other off, buy they destroy many lives in the process.

There is no secret doctrine, no apostasy among the brethren, no need for a restoration.

agreed.

[Kingdom of ZION]

That fine... when the new Dispensation dawns upon you, I well expect many peoples numbered among the Gentile to be the first to throw stones. Am I a "wolf sporting a lambswool slicker'... besides being very funny, yes from your point of view I am not saying that all is well in Zion. I came to this website because of a web search on the topic of Davidic Servant. I was not looking for LDS or Fundamentalist Mormons, aka Gentiles to offend. I do not believe in pushing the blind man out of his life boat just to see if he can swim. Just because I prefer to swim in the deep end of the pool, does not mean others do or can. You might need to be right where you are... it may be the will of Adonia for you. There may be things in the LDS Church you need to learn. That is no problem to me, I did not come here to covert anyone to anything, save share some sacred truths and openly discuss them.

You say... "others use Mosiah Hancock and arguments that have been used to justify the authority of many fundamentalist groups since 1890. Of course they often end up killing each other off, buy they destroy many lives in the process."

I declare before Adonai, I am not here to justify myself. When you try to tell others I have an agenda and you are approaching me with your agenda, and you are totally wrong as to my motives here, then the truth is not found in your words!

How can you pour filthy water from a pitcher into other cups, and have anything different than what you started with. I tell you of a truth, the Time of the Gentiles has ended, it ended before you were ever born, you could easily have never know this. None of the Fundamentalist groups or churches have any hidden authority or more priesthood! All the brake offs share a common root and lack the same authority that was rejected, when the Covenant was broken. Your lack of empathy limits your ability to see the truth.

The only hope I have to offer you is that found in the scriptures for the restoration of His peoples Yesrael and the establishment of Zion. The other 2/3 of the Book of Mormon WILL come forth with the next restoration, JS talk about this. He said it was withheld because of [Gentile's] lack of faith.

You said, "There is no secret doctrine, no apostasy among the brethren, no need for a restoration."

Why then is my doctrines secret to you? Where is the more holy portion of the 'Stick of Josef'? I presume you would have it, if your Brethren were not in apostasy... and how can it ever be restored to them without an restoration, by one like unto Mosha?

The truth is unrecognizable to those who say they have all the truuth!

[Rand]

What covenant was broken?
This conversation descended quickly. Can we keep it even keeled?
You have cast several stones here KOZ. Are you accusing the LDS church of being dirty water? If so be up front about it.
You seem to feel you have a truth higher than what we possess, yet use the beginnings of our faith as a part of your truth. That does smack of common fundamentalism does it not?
Joseph said that this work would not fail nor ever need to be restored again. Your comments seem to lean that way. You can't cherry pick his comments to serve your belief.

[dewajack]

I'm not trying to defend KoZ at all, but the condemnation mentioned in D&C 84, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed, which he seems to be alluding to, at least in part, which isn't new. President Benson stated:


My beloved brethren and sisters, for some years now I have been deeply concerned that we are not using the Book of Mormon as God intends. As I participated in the Mexico City Temple dedication, I received the distinct impression that God is not pleased with our neglect of the Book of Mormon. In the eighty-fourth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord decreed that the whole Church was under condemnation, even all the children of Zion, because of the way they treated the Book of Mormon. "And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent," said the Lord, "and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon" (D&C 84:57). Zion cannot fully arise and put on her beautiful garments if she is under this condemnation. (See D&C 82:14).

(President Benson, CR, Oct. 1984, pp. 4-5)

He also said, "Unless we read the Book of Mormon and give heed to its teachings, the Lord has stated in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants that the whole Church is under condemnation: “And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.” (D&C 84:56.) The Lord continues: “And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written.” (D&C 84:57.)

Now we not only need to say more about the Book of Mormon, but we need to do more with it. Why? The Lord answers: “That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.” (D&C 84:58.) We have felt that scourge and judgment!" (April 1986, Cleansing the Inner Vessel).

Elder Oaks reiterated President Benson's teachings, "Along with other General Authorities, I have a clear recollection of the General Authority temple meeting on 5 March 1987. For a year, President Benson had been stressing the reading of the Book of Mormon. Repeatedly he had quoted these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants, including the Lord's statement that the Saints' conduct had "brought the whole church under condemnation" (D&C 84:55).

In that temple meeting, President Benson reread those statements and declared, "This condemnation has not been lifted, nor will it be until we repent." He also repeated his declaration of a year earlier that "in our day the Lord has inspired His servant to reemphasize the Book of Mormon to get the Church out from under condemnation."

Along with others, I felt the impact of this declaration of condemnation. As I studied the subject, I was relieved to find that the serious consequences of this condemnation need not be permanent. The use of this term elsewhere in modern revelation suggests that it refers to a punishment or a penalty, not to a permanent banishment (see, for example, D&C 82:3). In fact, the words President Benson quoted invite the Saints to repent of their deficiencies so the condemnation can be removed" (July 6, 1993)

[HeirofNumenor]

All the brake offs share a common root and lack the same authority that was rejected, when the Covenant was broken. Your lack of empathy limits your ability to see the truth.

The only hope I have to offer you is that found in the scriptures for the restoration of His peoples Yesrael and the establishment of Zion. The other 2/3 of the Book of Mormon WILL come forth with the next restoration JS talk about. He said it was withheld because of [Gentile's] lack of faith.

You said, "There is no secret doctrine, no apostasy among the brethren, no need for a restoration."

Why then is my doctrines secret to you? Where is the more holy portion of the 'Stick of Josef'? I presume you would have it, if your Brethren were not in apostasy...

And this is where we massively disagree....
You say that the LDS Church & leaders are in apostasy, that we broke the covenant(s) - particularly by ending polygamy and Law of Consecration (actually it was United Order that was ended, and not because of apostasy, but because of common human selfishness in a capitalistic national system) - as well as other things you disagree with....

Tell me something: which takes more faith to believe?

a) That God could speak to mankind again (to a 14 year old boy!) through prophets and organize His Church (all the rest are somehow faulty), that God would command the people to do some amazingly hard thing (in western Christian culture) such as practice polygamy which brings on tons of persecution, mobbings and murders - forcing the people to flee the nation only to be cornered later by their own nation's army and imprisoned & disenfranchised for practicing their faith...

OR

b) That same God would see that His people have suffered enough by following His will in a test as hard as when He commanded Abraham to sacrifice (i.e. KILL) his promised son Isaac for whom he waited 100 years - that this same God would then command the difficult practice of polygamy to end - after they have put their homes, families, freedoms, and lives on the line (often losing ALL of them)...that God wold say "No more - back to normal!"?

This is where fundamentalists lack the faith that God can test His people by commanding something and then telling them to stop doing it....and they say that Wilford Woodruff led the Church astray by issuing the Manifesto - they claim it was for political convenience...many in the 1890's & 1900's lost their faith because it wasn't centered on God - it was centered on the commitment to the cause/ideal (polygamy) - and they were unwilling to believe God could say "stop". You'd think they would have been HAPPY that the thing which was causing the worst persecution was ended. Nope...MOST were...BUT NOT ALL....two apostles resigned their office because of this - one being excommunicated a few years later (President John Taylor's son - John W. Taylor).

This all reminds me of the Old Testament prophet Jonah. Remember him? God commanded him to do a VERY hard thing - go to the exceedingly wicked capital of Assyria - Nineveh - and tell them that God demands their repentance or be destroyed. Nineveh, where captured enemies were flayed/skinned alive by the hundreds of thousands before they (finally died). Jonah feared for his life, got in a boat to sail to the farthest part of the sea (Spain), and God caused a storm to nearly sink the ship. Jonah recognized his guilt, was tossed overboard, and saved by being swallowed by the great fish (Sperm Whale). He humbles himself, goes to Nineveh, cries repentance unto the people - and miracle of miracles - the King repent and commands his people to repent also. God does not destroy the city and the people because His conditions have been met.

What does Jonah do? He throws a major hissy fit because God did not destroy Nineveh (after he finally did the hard thing by going there where he could have lost his life)...why? Jonah was mad that God reversed His judgment because Jonah felt that since he finally did this hard thing (preaching in a hostile city where he could be easily killed), that he wanted God to punish Nineveh (be consistent, never changing). It never entered into Jonah's mind that the people would repent and therefore God would choose NOT to follow through with His declared destruction.

Likewise, it never enters into the minds of those fundamentalists and others who say that "the LDS Church compromised / broke the covenant (of polygamy, consecration, etc.)" that God Himself would tell them to stop - you passed the test.

What do fundamentalists do? They throw a major hissy fit because polygamy was ended, United Order was ended, blacks got the priesthood, etc.

Jehovah told Moses to put all of ancient Israel under a very strict law because of their disobedience....consequently, they were so wrapped up in the Law of Moses that they couldn't accept the Christ when he came among them.

KOZ - You may have once been LDS, you may never have been - however you are very intent on proving that the LDS Church (especially the leaders) have fallen - in your words "are in apostasy"...
You say you are NOT a fundamentalist - but your words are nearly perfectly aligned with them...and in some cases with white supremacists and other racists (your post re: the serpent having sex with Eve as supporting your idea that Satan had physical children (the Jews, according to the article you posted, the blacks according to groups like Aryan Nations). The major difference is you know a few more Hebrew words.

Bottom Line: If you believe God can tell you to do a hard thing, then you should also be able to believe God can also tell you to stop doing that hard thing, and to do something different.

[ldsfireguy]

KoZ,

I have answered these questions for myself in the past - I have asked the Lord with my heart and soul open before him which church to join, and have been told that his church is now upon the earth and that it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The same thing has happened to my wife, a sound christian woman who ultimately received the same answer before we married. I understand that you may have a different answer and a different doctrine, and you are entitled to them, but your doctrine does not square with the statements and prophecies of Joseph Smith, nor with the writings of the Book of Mormon.

I have read what you have written in several threads, and most of it is a garbled mishmash of your own personal ideas, your interpretation of apocrypha, and some wild extrapolations from the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Your doctrine is unsound in my opinion, non-scriptural, and a classic of example of truth mingled with error - I'm sure on that basis if you are persistent you will gain adherents.