Sacrament changed to water; why not wine?

[wolfman]

because there's too many Pharisees within the church who wouldn't partake of the sacrament if we used wine.

[shadow]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

Even though Deacons are specifically prohibited from doing so

D&C 20:58
But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

Cut and paste from Merriam's dictionary-
Definition of ADMINISTER
transitive verb
1: to manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of <administer a trust fund>

The Deacons don't manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of the sacrament.

[Mahonri]

so you chose option "B" and the young women can now "pass" the sacrament :ymcowboy:

the definition during the time the revelation was given http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/administer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and history shows something a bit different.

“it was not until after the turn of the century that passing the sacrament became a Church-wide assignment for deacons. It is included as one item in an interesting list of recommended duties for deacons published by the Church about the time of World War I:” April 1975 Gen Conf, William Harley

[EmmaLee]

and the young women can now "pass" the sacrament :ymcowboy:

I've often wondered about this, as don't we all "pass" the sacrament? Whoever is sitting on the end of the pew takes the tray from the Deacon and passes it on to the next person; that person takes the tray and passes it on, and on and on. Not trying to strain at a gnat here, but really the only thing Deacons do is get the trays from the sacrament table and start passing them - the majority of the actual 'passing' gets done by all kinds of members, most of whom do not hold the priesthood at all (women, children, etc..).

[shadow]

so you chose option "B" and the young women can now "pass" the sacrament :ymcowboy:

the definition during the time the revelation was given http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/administer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and history shows something a bit different.

“it was not until after the turn of the century that passing the sacrament became a Church-wide assignment for deacons. It is included as one item in an interesting list of recommended duties for deacons published by the Church about the time of World War I:” April 1975 Gen Conf, William Harley

Modern revelation has given the stewardship of taking the trays from the priests at the sacrament table and passing them to the congregation to the office of deacon. The young women don't have that assignment. And even the definition you gave doesn't mean that by passing the sacrament the deacons are administering it.

ADMIN'ISTER, v.t. [L. administro, of ad and ministro, to serve or manage. See Minister.]


1. To act as minister or chief agent, in managing public affairs, under laws or a constitution of government, as a king, president, or other supreme officer. it is used also of absolute monarchs, who rule not in subordination; but is more strictly applicable to limited monarchs and other supreme executive officers, and to governors, vice-roys, judges and the like, who are under the authority of laws. A king or a president administers the government or laws, when he executes them or carries them into effect. A judge administers the laws, when he applies them to particular cases or persons. In short, to administer is to direct the execution or application of laws (Or Sacrament!).


The deacons aren't directing the execution of the sacrament (administering). If you pay attention during the Sacrament you'll notice that the Bishop is directing or as per the definition you offered, is administering the sacrament. When the Priest is finished with the Sacrament prayer he looks to the Bishop to make sure he can then pass the trays to the deacons. The priest will not look to the deacons to see if he read the prayer correctly. The Bishop will typically give the priest a nod to go ahead. Also notice that the deacons don't take the trays from the table on their own, the priests take them then give them to the deacons. Certainly the deacons are NOT administering or directing the sacrament. But you knew that...

Your only option appears to be that the church is apostate. I realize a few people on this site like to think that...

[Mahonri]

Your only option appears to be that the church is apostate. I realize a few people on this site like to think that...

That's an insane leap in an attempt to force people to choose your interpretation contrary to history and scripture. This kind of thing has hapened plenty of times and been changed back to fit the scripture.

fallibility does not equal apostasy as you imply.

[shadow]

Your only option appears to be that the church is apostate. I realize a few people on this site like to think that...

That's an insane leap in an attempt to force people to choose your interpretation contrary to history and scripture.

Speaking of making insane leaps and forcing your interpretation...

so you chose option "B" and the young women can now "pass" the sacrament :ymcowboy:

The church isn't doing anything contrary to scripture by having the deacons pass (not administer) the sacrament. Both of the definitions- the one I posted and the one you posted clearly define that administering would be more than passing. I'm not forcing that opinion on anyone, the definitions are clear as day to anyone with the ability to read and with a basic comprehension level. Has the thought ever crossed your mind that you're the one that's trying to force people to see your definition of "administer"?

[Henmasher]

Should we all form a line and have the priest place it in our mouth and press the cup to our lips?

Those that choose not to eat God could rather place a cross upon themselves with folded arms and simply be blessed by the priest?

This thread is a twist on clear doctrine rummaged over with personal philosophy. The way we do it each sunday is authorized by the priesthood of God through proper revelatory channels. Water, wine, priest deacon, maybe we should question the endowment and its administration, that has more twist on the traditions than the administration of the sacrament by "men". Jeez i-)

[LukeAir2008]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

Even though Deacons are specifically prohibited from doing so

D&C 20:58
But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

The Deacons don't manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of the sacrament.

You do make me laugh Shadow. Always the nursery student...never the teacher. Passing the sacrament is not administration. The administration is the blessing of the sacrament and the performing of the ordinance. I've had women pass me the sacrament. Usually the one's sat next to me who pass the tray along the row. The deacons are merely assisting in the passing of the sacrament. The Priests have already administered it. Thank you for pointing out a distinction without a difference. Give me a hug! :ymhug:

[shadow]

Passing the sacrament is not administration. The administration is the blessing of the sacrament and the performing of the ordinance. I've had women pass me the sacrament. Usually the one's sat next to me who pass the tray along the row. The deacons are merely assisting in the passing of the sacrament. The Priests have already administered it. Thank you for pointing out a distinction without a difference. Give me a hug! :ymhug:

Try telling that to Mahonri, and good luck!!
Anyway, since I'm the student here what have you taught me on the matter? Do you have anything to add in addition to what I posted? You summed up nicely what I already said, that deacons aren't administering the sacrament. Surely a great mind like yours can add something of value... anything :-w

[Kingdom of ZION]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

Even though Deacons are specifically prohibited from doing so

D&C 20:58
But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

Cut and paste from Merriam's dictionary-
Definition of ADMINISTER
transitive verb
1: to manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of <administer a trust fund>

The Deacons don't manage or supervise the execution, use, or conduct of the sacrament.

He who would be the greatest among you, must be your servant. I care not that it is an 89 year old man who takes an hour to administer such. That IS the correct pattern... not children. One should read D&C 20 closer and if it is the children that are appointed to be the survants among you, so be it.