Sacrament changed to water; why not wine?

[Squally]

Why was the sacrament changed in the LDS church to water instead of wine? I just had a Christian non-member friend ask why we changed it as a church even though Christ himself served wine to his apostles at the last supper. He wanted to know if Christ should have served water.

[Original_Intent]

Back in Joseph Smith's time, people were trying to poison the LDS members' sacramental wine. I believe technically that the Lord told revealed that it did not matter WHAT was used, as long as it was done in remembrance of him.

I have heard of missionaries from some parts of the world using banana slices in place of the bread (missionaries from our ward reported doing that when they returned.)

[Original_Intent]

found a quote - pretty much in support of what I said.

As to our use of water in place of grape juice ("new wine"—see Isaiah 65:8), it is important to note that initially grape juice was used in the sacrament both in the early church (Matthew 26:28-29) and in the latter-day church (DC 20:79).[2] As a precaution against enemies of the Church poisoning or adulterating the grape juice sold to the Saints, a change was authorized by the Lord.[3] The Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

[EmmaLee]

Where is that quote from, OI?

[iamse7en]

Where is that quote from, OI?

Looks like from FAIR, who seems to have taken it from this book.

Well if I ever became prophet, I'll change it to grape juice. Our water is being poisoned by the government.

[SpeedRacer]

Dig a well at your church. I am on a well and am loving it. I can barely drink water from a faucet.

[Squally]

found a quote - pretty much in support of what I said.

As to our use of water in place of grape juice ("new wine"—see Isaiah 65:8), it is important to note that initially grape juice was used in the sacrament both in the early church (Matthew 26:28-29) and in the latter-day church (DC 20:79).[2] As a precaution against enemies of the Church poisoning or adulterating the grape juice sold to the Saints, a change was authorized by the Lord.[3] The Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

Thanks OI, I'll share that with him.

[Squally]

Where is that quote from, OI?

Looks like from FAIR, who seems to have taken it from this book.

Well if I ever became prophet, I'll change it to grape juice. Our water is being poisoned by the government.

And thanks for the refernces/links aimse7en.

I just prepared my e-mail to send to my Christian friend with the answer.

Thanks again to everyone for the input. :ymapplause:

[EmmaLee]

Exactly. Thank you, BrentL.

[Kingdom of ZION]

found a quote - pretty much in support of what I said.

As to our use of water in place of grape juice ("new wine"—see Isaiah 65:8), it is important to note that initially grape juice was used in the sacrament both in the early church (Matthew 26:28-29) and in the latter-day church (DC 20:79).[2] As a precaution against enemies of the Church poisoning or adulterating the grape juice sold to the Saints, a change was authorized by the Lord.[3] The Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

holy crud batman, dont share this lie!!!! it was not grape juice, it was wine. and it was not authorized by the Lord, we were told to make our own wine, but that we could substitute as needed to be faithful. its important to read the entire thing, not just the short "use water for now" part.

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

4Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth

its a total lie that it was "grape juice"

the rest reads like if you make it, you will drink the cup with the bridegroom at AOA. screaming awesome.

Amon BrentL. I use 'Mogen David' [meaning Star of David] a kosher wine for Sacrament. It is made by Yesrael for Yesrael. It is kosher because they do not add yeast to it so it can be used for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is a very sweet concord wine.

[Original_Intent]

found a quote - pretty much in support of what I said.

As to our use of water in place of grape juice ("new wine"—see Isaiah 65:8), it is important to note that initially grape juice was used in the sacrament both in the early church (Matthew 26:28-29) and in the latter-day church (DC 20:79).[2] As a precaution against enemies of the Church poisoning or adulterating the grape juice sold to the Saints, a change was authorized by the Lord.[3] The Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

holy crud batman, dont share this lie!!!! it was not grape juice, it was wine. and it was not authorized by the Lord, we were told to make our own wine, but that we could substitute as needed to be faithful. its important to read the entire thing, not just the short "use water for now" part.

Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

4Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth

its a total lie that it was "grape juice"

the rest reads like if you make it, you will drink the cup with the bridegroom at AOA. screaming awesome.

Ah. OK. So the church is currently in error to use water?

[Kingdom of ZION]

Ah. OK. So the church is currently in error to use water?

I guess you do not understand when the Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

In what context did the Lord say it?? IT MATTERERTH NOT... what you and your family or your church or your synagogue uses to partake of the New Covenant, as long as it is with a eye single to His glory. How does that make any church in error because it uses water? It can not!

[LukeAir2008]

Its interesting that when Paul was discussing the ordinance of the Sacrament of the Lord's supper he didn't mention wine but only the cup. The importance is in eating and drinking in rememberance of the atonement of Christ - not what we actually eat and drink. He stressed the importance of not partaking unworthily explaining that those that do eat and drink damnation to their souls. How would your christian friend explain that one?

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.(1 Cor11:23-29)

[Squally]

Its interesting that when Paul was discussing the ordinance of the Sacrament of the Lord's supper he didn't mention wine but only the cup. The importance is in eating and drinking in rememberance of the atonement of Christ - not what we actually eat and drink. He stressed the importance of not partaking unworthily explaining that those that do eat and drink damnation to their souls. How would your christian friend explain that one?

23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.(1 Cor11:23-29)

yeah, I will show him this where the cup is mentioned but not what was in the cup. thanks.

[Original_Intent]

Ah. OK. So the church is currently in error to use water?

I guess you do not understand when the Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins" (DC 27:1-2).

In what context did the Lord say it?? IT MATTERERTH NOT... what you and your family or your church or your synagogue uses to partake of the New Covenant, as long as it is with a eye single to His glory. How does that make any church in error because it uses water? It can not!

I was responding to BrentL's comment - you know, the one I quoted? 8-|

[davedan]

REMEMBER, while we shouldnt change things willy-nilly, what is represented is much more important than the symbol itself. Look how many disloyal politicans to the Constitution wrap themselves up in the US Flag.

It used to be in the old days before modern sanitation that water was a symbol of impurity and wine was a symbol of purity.

Now the opposite is true. Water is pure, and wine has become a symbol of debauchary (baccus) (eg higher alcohol content)

This is how the temple endowment can change when symbols change their meaning.

This is also why having a living prophet is important, who can receive direct revelation about when a change is appropriate and authorized,

The important thing here is that God okay'd the change.

Dont make the mistake of putting the SYMBOL before the MEANING in importance.

[LukeAir2008]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

[shadow]

Why was the sacrament changed in the LDS church to water instead of wine?

Because the Teachers, 14-16 year old boys, would enjoy their job too much... B-)

[dirtdarte]

Because water is cheaper than wine... simple

[John Locke]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

I'm not doubting I would just really like to see that. That is really cool. Do you have a reference?

[Mahonri]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

Even though Deacons are specifically prohibited from doing so

D&C 20:58
But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

Which is a picture of a shot being administered?

or

[John Locke]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

Even though Deacons are specifically prohibited from doing so

D&C 20:58
But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands;

Which is a picture of a shot being administered?

or

Modern Revelation > your pictures

quoted from guidebook 4 "Priests and teachers may prepare the sacrament. Priests, teachers, and deacons may pass the sacrament. (See D&C 107:13–14, 20)"

[Mahonri]

Modern Revelation > your pictures

quoted from guidebook 4 "Priests and teachers may prepare the sacrament. Priests, teachers, and deacons may pass the sacrament. (See D&C 107:13–14, 20)"

Harold B Lee disagrees

"if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard works (I think that is why we call them "standard"—it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false; regardless of the position of the man who says it." (Harold B. Lee, "The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator," Address to Seminary and Institute of Religion Faculty, BYU, 8 July 1964)

It is also at LDS.org from the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual here: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?local ... 82620aRCRD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even FAIR uses the quote to show that "the scriptures are the only source of official doctrine" http://fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doc ... e_doctrine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, yes; modern revelation is of utmost importance, and the D&C is the most modern revelation on this subject :ymcowboy:

[Mahonri]

Because water is cheaper than wine... simple

:ymapplause: Can you imagine having to make enough wine every week? And you thought it was difficult finding a substitute for nursery

[LukeAir2008]

In the sacrament prayer found in the cave of the one thousand buddhas they used water not wine. Exactly the same prayer as in the D&C, priest blessed, deacon passed...and they used bread and water.

I'm not doubting I would just really like to see that. That is really cool. Do you have a reference?

You would need to get hold of the talk by Dr. Einar Ericksonn on The Cave of the One Thousand Buddhas.
I heard it years ago and I think it's still available on his website. Apparently they translated it into French and then English and it reads exactly the same as D&C 20 and says that a priest blessed and a deacon passed etc.