LDS Freedom Forum

Henmasher wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:

Nan wrote:Seeing children often happens when a person is supposed to have another child. I know several people who have had this experience. My aunt was one of them. The little girl kept coming to her but she refused to have another kid. Eventually the little girl went away. 20 years later my aunt's biggest regret is that she didn't have her.
The second kind of appearance of seeing a child that I know people have had, is when they have lost a child. My understanding is that they come in that form so the person will recognize them and that it will be a comfort to them.

This is such crap! There are so many things wrong with this mormon wives tail I don't know where to begin. I have a family member say the exact same thing, she was from Utah. No one outside of UTAH says this kind of crap. She has six children already and living at or near poverty levels and she says I keep feeling we are missing someone. As John Stahsels would say Give me a BREAK.

Having a child should not be based on some so called "VISION" or feeling that someone is missing.

Look if you pray about it, have the means by all means have another child but this crap of saying I keep seeing a child in vision and that means I am missing a child in my family. So I need to pump out another child is so off it like superstition.

What about all those couples who can not have children because of physical problems. What an awful experience that would be. Those would be horror visions to them.

Look the bottom line is that this is just BUNK!!!!!! Like so many other saying in the church.... remember the beyond a shadow of a doubt. Almost every testimony was I know it beyond a shadow of doubt. Yet those same people did not even pay tithing they did not have temple recommends and they knew it beyond a shadow of a doubt. It was just popular to say. So is this I feel like our family is missing someone.

It is a superstition that I would like to squash if I could. There are many more in the church but this one gets to me.

Revelation has ceased in our time. We have no need for it

Who urinated in your cheerios :ymtongue:

Family member who saw her daughter in the temple prior to getting pregnant and having the child.....not a wives tale! My wife and I with nearly every one of our six children were given promptings on timing despite economic circumstances (school) as well as close proximity to previous pregnancies (6 children in 8 years). We were also full tithe payers and temple recommend holders the entire time.

Amen on the cheerios!!!

I don't believe any of those stories. A vision of the child before you give birth? For what purpose would that server. Appearance of the spirit just don't happen on a whim.

I am sure that on some special occasions this could happen but really everysingle person has a I saw a child in the temple story. When there are not children spirits. It is utterly amazing.

What some people call revelation I would call an active imagination.

Don't get me wrong I love a good revelation story. I just hear way to many of these I saw a vision of my child.... eh he... lets follow up on all these vision children are they all super mormons? Are they all apostles now? The only ones with special mission are pre-announced as far as I know. The scriptures have many stories about the pre-announcement of special souls to this world. But I doubt your 3rd child is one of them.

After all that... really have more visions of babies if you keeps your faith strong.

7cylon7 wrote:I don't believe any of those stories. A vision of the child before you give birth? For what purpose would that server. Appearance of the spirit just don't happen on a whim.

I am sure that on some special occasions this could happen but really everysingle person has a I saw a child in the temple story. When there are not children spirits. It is utterly amazing.

What some people call revelation I would call an active imagination.

Don't get me wrong I love a good revelation story. I just hear way to many of these I saw a vision of my child.... eh he... lets follow up on all these vision children are they all super mormons? Are they all apostles now? The only ones with special mission are pre-announced as far as I know. The scriptures have many stories about the pre-announcement of special souls to this world. But I doubt your 3rd child is one of them.

After all that... really have more visions of babies if you keeps your faith strong.

Well this was a special child - autistic....3rd child too for that matter....take it for whatever you deem its worth.

.

Zkulptor wrote:Hi guys,
MY wife just shared with me an experience, she keeps seeing this little girl, she just stands there..... the problem from my point of view is this... it is my understanding that there are no spirits in the form of children.... they are all adults. I have also heard spirits can manifest themselves in a way we can recognize them better.... but the form of a child? anyway any feedback would be great!
Thank you!
-Erick

If it is from God, it will not be a mystery. He will not leave her without a confirmation of the truth of it. She should seek for a second witness. If it is from God, she will receive the witness. If it is not, she will not and needs to have Satan cast away from her through prayer or a blessing.
After requesting a second witness, be patient.

7cylon7 wrote:I don't believe any of those stories. A vision of the child before you give birth? For what purpose would that server. Appearance of the spirit just don't happen on a whim.

I am sure that on some special occasions this could happen but really everysingle person has a I saw a child in the temple story. When there are not children spirits. It is utterly amazing.

What some people call revelation I would call an active imagination.

Don't get me wrong I love a good revelation story. I just hear way to many of these I saw a vision of my child.... eh he... lets follow up on all these vision children are they all super mormons? Are they all apostles now? The only ones with special mission are pre-announced as far as I know. The scriptures have many stories about the pre-announcement of special souls to this world. But I doubt your 3rd child is one of them.

After all that... really have more visions of babies if you keeps your faith strong.

Oh ye of little faith.

Thanks everyone! Cylon, don't get so upset over these stories , if they are fake, whatever, if they are real, how awesome!

bobhenstra wrote:It's my opinion that in the pre-existence spirits actually commit to one another through the female spirits. In other words, no matter who the female marries in mortality, she gives the spirits committed to her, then that commitment continues through the daughters.

If a husband married in the temple is stupid enough to cause sealings to be cancelled, it's he who loses the children, the children stay sealed to the mother. If she is married and sealed to another man, her children becomes children to the new husband. Tough on stupid husbands, but right for the righteous sisters!

Bob

You obviously do not understand the patriarchal order.

Renee wrote: 7cyclon7, DONT tell me this is a crap story it didnt happen to you. How rude of you to say others peoples stories are crap...O ye of little faith.

R[/color]

Indeed. A Doubting Thomas for sure.

NoGreaterLove wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:I don't believe any of those stories. A vision of the child before you give birth? For what purpose would that server. Appearance of the spirit just don't happen on a whim.

I am sure that on some special occasions this could happen but really everysingle person has a I saw a child in the temple story. When there are not children spirits. It is utterly amazing.

What some people call revelation I would call an active imagination.

Don't get me wrong I love a good revelation story. I just hear way to many of these I saw a vision of my child.... eh he... lets follow up on all these vision children are they all super mormons? Are they all apostles now? The only ones with special mission are pre-announced as far as I know. The scriptures have many stories about the pre-announcement of special souls to this world. But I doubt your 3rd child is one of them.

After all that... really have more visions of babies if you keeps your faith strong.

Oh ye of little faith.

I'm not married or a parent yet. However, I know the veil can be thin, especially with regards to matters that are important to God. Whereas, families are central to the plan, this is one area where I would not be surprised to hear of abundant revelation or spiritual experiences. That said, I don't think that anyone here would imply that the absence of such an experience makes a birth any less important in God's eyes. I trust that many people are honest about their experiences, and though some may falsely claim such an experience to fill some psychological void, I wouldn't be so quick to discount and dismiss everyone's experiences as "bunk." God is a God of miracles, and sending spirit children to families is one of his most important ongoing works. Until God has sent his spirit children to earth, I don't think we can have "way too many" of such experiences. Whether they turn out to be "super mormons" or just regular folk, the Lord has promises to keep. I have seen the Lord intervene in less important affairs all too often to discount His will to intervene in something that is "central" to His plan.

7cylon7, I've agreed that some people might make up such stories, but can you agree that it is possible that such an integral part of the plan might be accompanied with additional manifestations? If not for the purpose of family, I can't think of a more suitable subject worthy of revelation, visions, and dreams.

I recently listened to a fireside by Elaine Durham. She had a temporarily dead experience. The things she learned prompted her to a vocation in hospice care. Before I go further, Brigham Young stated that the spirit world is on this world, Mrs. Durham also stated this in the fireside. She recounted an experience she had with an elderly woman who was nearing her time to move onto the spirit world. One day this woman was having an animated conversation on both sides of her bed. Mrs. Durham who was in the kitchen making her a sandwich thought she was talking to her. She was seeing children around her bed. They would come and visit her each day. The elderly lady asked Mrs. Durham who they were, neither one of them knew. There were 5 little girls and 3 little boys. They always came down the stairs, where the boys would stay but the girls would come down and dance around her bed. One particular evening they came, but there was one little girl that was missing, and the woman was asking where she was. The next day they got a phone call and found out that her granddaughter had given birth to a grand child. Sister Durham felt that every one of these spirits was an unborn grandchild that she wouldn't be alive to see on this side of the veil. So she got to see them from the other side.

The spirit world is not that far away. They are constantly around us, helping us, and teaching us. They are our ancestors, those that loved us while alive whom we were close to.

From what Ive read Iv'e come the the conclusion that there are INDEED child spirits. Just as our physical bodies grow and progress so do our spirits. I think we are born as baby spirits and then we grow and progress to a certain point and then once we get to a certain point we are ready to be born here or on an earth. Also, we often equate babies with not having knowledge or children in general. But even small children spirits have "adult level understandings." That's my take on it. I dont equate knowledge with size and spiritual stature.

Actually dead children will appear to the parents if they are coming to comfort them as children. Even though they have adult spirits. They will appear in the form that is most comforting. (There is a quote about it, but I am in the middle of the homeschool day and don't have time to hunt it down right now.)

To share some things from a different perspective:
Over the last 20+ years, I and my family members have been privileged to have in our association many of those whom have had experiences beyond the veil (I myself never have had experiences like these).

Some have seen angels, some have received visitations from angels/beings named in the scriptures, some have heard the voice of God the Father.
Some have had near-death experiences - and their descriptions match those of Elder Jedidiah M. Grant (they didn't know he had an NDE when they told me about their own experiences).

My best friend from high school had a dream (late teen age years) where he saw a little girl and she told him she would be his daughter and told him her name. Later he married and had a little girl, he insisted his daughter have the same name. Self-fulfilling? Maybe, but he maintains the girl appeared to him.

Now to deal with those who have died.

Several instances of family & friends told directly to me or to my family :
One gentleman I know personally told my family member that he and wife lost a boy as a child. They were so distraught. One day the son's spirit appeared as an adult man (Elders Quorum pres. age & countenance); his son taught him man to man much about the other side, and these visits continued for a time.

One couple in our ward lost a young boy who drowned in the pool. They were grieving, and were sitting alone in the chapel of the Los Angeles Temple when their young son's spirit appeared to them and comforted them. I do not remember the appearance of the spirit, but I believe it was in the form of a young boy - age of death.

One girlfriend of mine was asked to make a burial outfit for a little boy in her ward who recently died. She didn't know his size, and his parents were too distraught to answer...so she prayed awhile about it. That night, the little boy's spirit appeared to her in the form of the age of death - this enabled her to have the right size for his clothing.

Another girlfriend of mine had two experiences (in addition to the NDE while in childbirth)
1) a little girl (3rd-4th grade age) appeared to her sons and was just sitting there on a bed. She asked around in the community, and turns out that several decades before, a 9 - year old girl drowned in the irrigation dike behind my girlfriend's house.
2) the angry spirit of a man in his early 20's visited her in the same house and was continually harassing her - not sure how she got rid of him (he was dressed in an older Canadian army uniform). She asked around, and that town lost a boy of the spirit's age range in a battle in World War One. She was shown a picture of him in his army uniform, and it matched the spirit that harassed her.

A third girlfriend of mine told me that her teenage daughter was in her room (fully awake & reading), and the spirit of a little Hispanic girl kept appearing to her saying things like "Where is my mommy? I can't find my mommy..they are hurting her." The teenage daughter scooted over to sit by the girl and put her arms around her trying to comfort her (yes, spirits have no mortal matter that we can touch in the same way as mortals, but nonetheless...) My girlfriend wondered if the girl's mother was a migrant worker that lived in shanties in the area (San Diego), and had been raped, strung out on drugs, etc.

In late 1987, the adult son of my mother's brother was killed in an motorcycle accident - He had just started coming back to church and working with the Bishop. About 6 weeks later, his parents flew out to the town where their other son was having his missionary farewell. The week before they were to leave, their Branch Pres. asked them if they had all their papers in order. The branch pres was the pilot. When they flew back, witnesses saw their small plane go into a cloud and never came out. They crashed on a mountain in Southern Utah. All three were killed on impact.

My mom's brother's spirit (Melvin) appeared at his age of death to my mom's sister's husband (Ellis) (they were best friends). Ellis was on travel and in his hotel room when he got the call. He was distraught and praying, when Melvin's spirit appeared to him. He sat in a chair in the room dressed in his temple robes. Melvin didn't speak, but looked at peace.
Melvin's son was about to cancel his mission call with both his parents now dead...Melvin's spirit appeared to him and told him he needed to go on his mission.
Melvin and his wife also appeared to some of the other older children and told them they were called home because their son killed in the motorcycle accident needed them in the spirit world.

My roommate Mark in spring 1990 was killed when he was flung out the car window (not wearing a seatbelt) when his mom swerved to miss a deer and rolled the car. Mark's younger brother just got home from his mission. he was following in another car when he sat the accident right in front of him (Mark killed, mom taken by ambulance, little sister life-flighted to hospital). He had to drive the damaged car, while dad and rest of family took the good car to the hospital. Mark's brother was so shaken that he pulled of the side of the road and walked into the trees a bit so he could pray for strength. As he did so, Mark's spirit appeared to him and told him he was were he was supposed to be, and was a lot happier than they few months prior. His spirit was also as his age of death.

The spirits of my ex-wife's parents have appeared to her and her oldest children, and their grandmother on their dad's side has also appeared. In these cases, their spirits all looked youthful and vibrant - late 20's-early 30's (all died in their 80's).

From these, and other statements - it would appear that spirits of children yet to be born will appear as little children to their future parents, and they may do so to give them hope.
The spirits of the dead however can choose to come in any form that will make it most effective for their purpose. While they can appear as a radiant youthful being, in the full stature of their spirit, or they can also appear at they were at the time of death (old or young).

IIRC, wicked spirits cannot appear in the form of a child. (One of those spirit rules, like shaking hands.)

I should clarify, that some on these spirits that appeared to my former girlfriends and their families were (at best) restless spirits: for whatever reason they seemed sad and lost - but not wicked. Only ONE spirit mentioned had an evil bent, and that was the young soldier who attacked her.

JohnnyL wrote:IIRC, wicked spirits cannot appear in the form of a child. (One of those spirit rules, like shaking hands.)

My understanding was no spirit could show in the form of a child. I will find the quote for a GA.

Apparently, there are no infants or children in the spirit world. All who reside there possess the stature of adult men and women, the same appearance they possessed prior to mortal birth. If infants or children die, their spirits immediately resume their former adult stature while in the spirit world. However, when they regain their bodies during the resurrection, they naturally come forth as children to be raised to maturity by righteous and worthy parents. President Joseph F. Smith explained this concept:

The spirits of our children are immortal before they come to us, and their spirits, after bodily death, are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh, to grow to maturity, or to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood; but if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter’s son (who died when a little child) came to him, in the stature of full-grown manhood, and revealed himself to his father, and said: ‘I am your son.’

“Bishop Hunter did not understand it. He went to my father and said: ‘Hyrum, what does that mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full-grown man—a noble, glorious, young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean?’

“Father (Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch) told him that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was full-grown before he was born into the world; and so our children were full-grown and possessed their full stature in the spirit, before they entered mortality, the same stature that they will possess after they have passed away from mortality, and as they will also appear after the resurrection, when they shall have completed their mission.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Deseret Book Company, 1939, p. 455.)


Just for the record I believe all the above. You can read the full article here. http://lds.org/liahona/1977/12/the-spir ... ild+spirit

Most of these stories are of the death of a loved one and seeing them in the spirit afterwards not before they were born.

Maybe I was a little to hard on my second post. However, most of the stories of the spirit world visitations are of people that have pasted away after being born. Not the other way around. So seeing a child before they were born in child spirit form I don't agree with. From the above statements the only reason they would appear in child form would be so the parents would recognize them. But why appear as a child to their mothers before they are born in child form when the parents would have no hope of recognizing them any way. You can see that I am skeptical at that point. The hundreds and thousand of stories about I had a dream of my unborn child begging me to give birth to them just does not sit well with what I have studied.

Thank you for your quotes 7cylon

7cylon7 wrote:Most of these stories are of the death of a loved one and seeing them in the spirit afterwards not before they were born.

Maybe I was a little to hard on my second post. However, most of the stories of the spirit world visitations are of people that have pasted away after being born. Not the other way around. So seeing a child before they were born in child spirit form I don't agree with. From the above statements the only reason they would appear in child form would be so the parents would recognize them. But why appear as a child to their mothers before they are born in child form when the parents would have no hope of recognizing them any way. You can see that I am skeptical at that point. The hundreds and thousand of stories about I had a dream of my unborn child begging me to give birth to them just does not sit well with what I have studied.

I don't see anything that doesn't sit well with it; it's just something more, another area. Is that such a strong reason to doubt, in face of so much testimony and experiences? Ok, so maybe all of those LDS women (and men) are freaky/ misled/ delusional...?? Or maybe...?? Check out the seminary book on DC 129, and un-embodied spirits vs. dis-embodied spirits: http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctri ... 21-129.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

I have a question, off the top of my foggy head: before the resurrection, could dis-embodied spirits appear to people?

I have a question, off the top of my foggy head: before the resurrection, could dis-embodied spirits appear to people?

YES. the prime example is the angel Gabriel appearing to Mary, Mother of Jesus....Gabriel is the heavenly name for Noah - the same Noah who built the ark 2,000+ years before...he died, (Gabriel did not appear as a translated being, but as a just man made perfect).

HeirofNumenor wrote:

I have a question, off the top of my foggy head: before the resurrection, could dis-embodied spirits appear to people?

YES. the prime example is the angel Gabriel appearing to Mary, Mother of Jesus....Gabriel is the heavenly name for Noah - the same Noah who built the ark 2,000+ years before...he died, (Gabriel did not appear as a translated being, but as a just man made perfect).

There it is, thanks!

Interesting.

I read this quote from Joseph Smith just last night. I noticed it because it surprised me. I too had heard that there were no child spirits, but I've never seen an actual reference for who said that. Something to google later, I suppose.

"But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow [in the grave]; it will still be the child, in the same precise form [when it rises] as it appeared before it died out of its mother’s arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. …"

Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon