There are higher kindoms of Glory above the Celestial

[Samuel the Lamanite]

This is talked about in the D+C. I didn't notice it for years. My wife and I were studying aloud and both suddenly saw this at the same time.

Also, I recently discovered in the D+C that there is a Kingdom between the Telestial Glory and Outer Darkness. This kingdom, however, is NOT one of Glory.

Has anyone else discovered this? If so, what do you think are the implications?

[Kaarno]

What are the scripture references in D&C? I would love to do a little research.

[dauser]

Three degrees of sorrow below the Telestial Kingdom might include the weapers, wailers and knashers of teeth.

[Rand]

Nope on both accounts, but I would love it if you would share. PM me if you would.

[truthseeker]

Is this the scripture you are referring to?

D&C 130:10Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

[SpeedRacer]

Is this the scripture you are referring to?

D&C 130:10Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

That looks like order of kingdoms, not more kingdoms of glory.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Truth seeker: Yes it is the exact scripture I'm refering to. Great to have someone do the research. Now, find the scripture that refers t a Kingdom without Glory that sits between the Telestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness. Hint: maybe its in D+C 76

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Speed: It could be that the CK does have more and higher glories that exist. In eithe case, I would posit that these are necessary to beome a full joint heir. My guess is that the highest order is the one that the Gods in the Premortal Council were in and HF is in now.

What say ye?

[SpeedRacer]

Sam. We know the CK has at least 3 levels, but we also know that the PoGP teaches us that everything/everyone has an order. Each person/star has a different degree of glory. So each degree of the CK is more than likely a boundary for people that fall within that level of glory. D&C 131 "in order to obtain the Highest". I take this to mean that this is the top tier. Is there something higher than the highest? Is not God's glory celestial glory?

I also know that we will have tons of learning and progressing to do after we get our bodies and if we by the mercy of Christ inherit the CK before we are able to move on to increase our glory.

As for the lower I think it would stand to reason that there are at least 3 degrees of glory in each of the other kingdoms as well. So the 3 degrees of sorrow may be the 3 degrees of the telestial kingdom. If Nan is correct, and I think she is, then the fornicators and adulterers would be there in the telestial, but I don't think they deserve to be with Charles Manson and the child molesters.

[suspense]

I remember being taught by my mission president in my temple recommend interview prior to going home that there were multiple degrees of glory within the Celestial kingdom. He said one could only attain the highest level of glory within the Celestial Kingdom by being sealed in marriage within the temple. He was using it as a motivator to get home and get married

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Speed: Great discussion. It's a great pleasure to dialogue with you and others on this thread.

HF can no longer progress to any higher order anywhere unless one has to have a certain level of Glory. The ONLY way for HF to gain more glory is to bring about the eternal life of His children here and on other worlds.

We know that God was once a man so that there had to be a God(s) to teach Him, resurrect him, and help Him progress. When we were in the Grand Premortal Counsel, HF was among the God's there so I deduce that at that time he was equal in Glory to all those Gods there. BUT ALL are subject to the Law of Eternal Progression even HF.

What lies beyond what we have been revealed thus far must be "unbelievable/awesome.' I believe JS knew the answers and that's why he said paraphrasing, " IF I told you all I knew, most Saints would leave the Church."

What say ye?

[SpeedRacer]

This is good discussion.

Agreed on how God increases in Glory, not in kingdoms. I love the JS quote. You know you wish you could see all that JS saw. I don't know why I can't get that kind of faith. I just pray that I can get the stuff back I knew before I came to earth so the task of learning everything perfectly will seem a little less daunting. All the chemistry, math and physics are gonna be hard core.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Speed: Keep your humility, add to your knowledge, and rely totally on the HG. If you and I do that, we will make it.

[iamse7en]

It's all relative.

What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. (TPJS, p. 347)

He [Brigham Young] said that the doctrine taught in the Seer that God had arrived at that state whereby he could not advance any further in knowledge, power & glory was a false doctrine & not true. That there never will be a time to all eternity when all the Gods of eternity will cease advancing in power, knowledge, experience & glory, for if this was the case, eternity would cease to be & the glory of God would come to an end, but all of the celestial beings will continue to advance in knowledge & power, worlds without end. Joseph would always be ahead of us, we should never catch up with him in all eternity nor he with his leaders. (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 9/17/1854)

e.g. God knows "all things" yet he continues to progress in knowledge. Relativity. Spheres. Eternal progression. One eternal round.

[shadow]

Relativity. Spheres. Eternal progression. One eternal round.

Sounds like a long game of golf B-)

[John Locke]

Relativity. Spheres. Eternal progression. One eternal round.

Sounds like a long game of golf B-)

Thus deemed "heaven"

Sam careful with the "kingdoms below the telestial" stuff. A few brothern in the early church were speculating about that and got chastised pretty hard. Skousen however address it pretty well in "Meaning of the Atonement" I'd recommend it, a really great talk.

[SpeedRacer]

Yeah lets put this back on the Celestial Kingdom and the Glory therein.

As for that. I am searching for a source on two alleged JS quotes.

One was about him being caught up into heaven with men who have gone before like Peter and such and sat with them discussing gospel principles. Then realizing he was so inept in comparison could only listen in awe.

Second was the one discussed earlier about JS saying if he told us all he knew or who he was or something. Maybe there are two different ones I am combining. One where people would leave the church, others where they would kill him for blasphemy.

I would love to see the source. It is sort of on topic as it seems it would be discussing things from such a realm.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

John: I don't know what these brethen said which got them reproached but it's clearly there in the D+C. I could post the exact verse but I prefer that I and everyone else search. I will give a hint: D+C 76.

If you have some documentation about this reproach issue, I would be grateful If you give me a link. OK?

[dewajack]

Joseph Smith said "he knew a man that was caught up to the seventh heaven." I think that takes care of that one.

[freedomforall]

Truth seeker: Yes it is the exact scripture I'm refering to. Great to have someone do the research. Now, find the scripture that refers t a Kingdom without Glory that sits between the Telestial Kingdom and Outer Darkness. Hint: maybe its in D+C 76

It may be the space between death and resurrection called "Spirit Prison" where the wicked go prior to their resurrection. The righteous go to Paradise.

[freedomforall]

Sam. We know the CK has at least 3 levels, but we also know that the PoGP teaches us that everything/everyone has an order. Each person/star has a different degree of glory. So each degree of the CK is more than likely a boundary for people that fall within that level of glory. D&C 131 "in order to obtain the Highest". I take this to mean that this is the top tier. Is there something higher than the highest? Is not God's glory celestial glory?

I also know that we will have tons of learning and progressing to do after we get our bodies and if we by the mercy of Christ inherit the CK before we are able to move on to increase our glory.

As for the lower I think it would stand to reason that there are at least 3 degrees of glory in each of the other kingdoms as well. So the 3 degrees of sorrow may be the 3 degrees of the telestial kingdom. If Nan is correct, and I think she is, then the fornicators and adulterers would be there in the telestial, but I don't think they deserve to be with Charles Manson and the child molesters.

Actually, the wicked who go to the Telestial Kingdom will have, first, gone to hell to pay for their sins, then they can enter into the lowest of the Telestial World, which is a Kingdom of Glory. At that point I can't imagine everyone looking at each other as if they are going to be attacked at any moment. Doesn't God desire for everybody to have some semblance of joy? Otherwise, the TK would be no better than hell itself.

[freedomforall]

Joseph Smith said "he knew a man that was caught up to the seventh heaven." I think that takes care of that one.

That would be the highest degree of the Terrestrial Kingdom.
1 spirit prison or paradise
2 lowest part of tel k
3 middle part of tel k
4 highest part of tel k
5 lowest part of ter k
6 middle part of ter k
7 highest part of ter k

any thoughts?

[mes5464]

Sam. We know the CK has at least 3 levels, but we also know that the PoGP teaches us that everything/everyone has an order. Each person/star has a different degree of glory. So each degree of the CK is more than likely a boundary for people that fall within that level of glory. D&C 131 "in order to obtain the Highest". I take this to mean that this is the top tier. Is there something higher than the highest? Is not God's glory celestial glory?

I also know that we will have tons of learning and progressing to do after we get our bodies and if we by the mercy of Christ inherit the CK before we are able to move on to increase our glory.

As for the lower I think it would stand to reason that there are at least 3 degrees of glory in each of the other kingdoms as well. So the 3 degrees of sorrow may be the 3 degrees of the telestial kingdom. If Nan is correct, and I think she is, then the fornicators and adulterers would be there in the telestial, but I don't think they deserve to be with Charles Manson and the child molesters.

Actually, the wicked who go to the Telestial Kingdom will have, first, gone to hell to pay for their sins, then they can enter into the lowest of the Telestial World, which is a Kingdom of Glory. At that point I can't imagine everyone looking at each other as if they are going to be attacked at any moment. Doesn't God desire for everybody to have some semblance of joy? Otherwise, the TK would be no better than hell itself.

I agree with you freedomfighter. I can't lay my hands on the quotes but I got them from this site that said all the spirits that merit a Telestial glory will remain in spirit prison/hell until such time that they accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Only then will they be released to the Telestial Kingdom. This will continue until spirit prison is finally empty. This will be a bad time for someone to be stubborn because they will only prolong their own suffering. I think this will also mean that the spirits in Telestial Kingdom will have changed their ways (because of what they suffered in prison) and will no longer be predators on their neighbors.

Side note: I think they finally repent of their ways and accept the Savior (but not unto salvation) because they only repent because of what they suffered not because of their love of the Father or Savior.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

To all: This has been among the best informed and kindly thread I've seen. I've been given much meat to mull over. I hope you have too? I await a post showing that the Brethren "disciplined" those who thought there was a Kingdom but without Glory between the Teletial Glory and OD. I usually find that there are crossferencing to other scripture showing the real meaning of a verse. In looking at this verse are there such cross references? If so, what does those crossreferences say?

[sbsion]

thing is......it doesn't matter......just experience a mighty change and recieve the comforter so you can satisfy your "wonderings"