WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE "VALIENT IN YOUR TESTIMONY?"

[Samuel the Lamanite]

In studying D+C 76 http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I looked at the "qualifications" for assignment to each of the three degrees of Glory. I was looking closely at the Terrestrail Glory and came across verse 79. "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." I believe this refers to only LDS members who are good people like others listed earlier. Does this apply even to those who have received their endowments and sealed but end up NOT being valient? I thought being endowed and sealed was enogh to be assigned to the Celestial Glory?

I wonder what the word valient means in terms of specifics? What acts makes one valient? NOT valient? Am I valient? How many in my Ward are valient?

It appears to me that if I'm NOT valient, I will be assigned to the Terrestrial Glory not the Celestial Glory.

What say ye?

[Original_Intent]

I feel that not being valiant means you have a testimony, but you won't stand up for it. In terms of a battle, I compare it to being on the right side of the fight but being unwilling/afraid to get to the front lines. Their can be lots of reasons for that - fear, laziness, apathy...

I don;t think that only LDS will be in the terrestrial kingdom, though, in fact I believe that will most likely be where the majority of people go. But that is just my personal opinion/gut feeling.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

OI: Thanks for the thoughtful post. Do think as I do that one can end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom even if one has been endowed and seled but has NOT been valient? If one refuses to do missionary work, is this an example being unvalient? What if one is standing in a circle of friends, at work, etc with mostly nonMormons and someone says something untrue/ugly about Mormons, you reamin silent reather than seeking the record straight.. is that being unvalient? Your thoughts?

[Original_Intent]

I'm not trying to be coy (honest!) but I beleive there will be endowed and sealed members in all three kingdoms as well as outer darkness. I also believe that there will obviously be non-members in all three kingdoms and also outer darkness. (at least non-members during mortality.)

As far as your specific questions of what = valiant/non-valiant. We all have unique personalities - some are much more "warrior" type spirits or intelligences who may be much more inclined to step forward in those situations. I believe it will boil down to what separates wheat from tares - both look similar to each other, but only one bears fruit.

I think there are some shy people who might have a very difficult time standing up to a group and causing a confrontation. But that person may still bear fruit by temple work. Other peopkle are much more inclined to "wear themselves out" exposing works of darkness. And their are myriad other ways people can serve.

So I am not sure that we are effective coming up with hypotheticals and trying to decide which side of the line they fall on. First, THAT judgement is not something that we need to concern ourselves with. We just need to be sure that we are wheat, not tares. If the spirit is nudging us that we need to "man up" (no offense to the ladies) and be a bit more bold in standing up for the truth - we should be heeding that.

That being said, we all have our own variety and strength of gifts and weaknesses. Only Heavenly Father fully knows and therefore only he can judge how we used or abused those gifts. I would suggest that there could be two endowed and worthy members standing in that circle while the church or the gospel is being bad mouthed. One may feel that what they are saying is wrong, but may feel that they do not know the right words to kindly but firmly correct the speaker. The other person may feel moved by the spirit and know exactly what they should say. So my "non-answer" is I feel that one of them would be condemned for his silence, and the other not. I think judgement will be a perfect combination of objectivity and subjectivity. The beauty of it is that the body of Christ is not made up of all hands or all feet. We need to learn to appreciate and respect each MEMBER serving in their respective capacity, and learn to be a little less judgemental if others are not serving exactly the way we think they should.

[sbsion]

valient= having recieved the might change, the second comfortor, callilng and election. power in the priesthood through ALL generations of time and.....(2tmp).........oh well

[Amore Vero]

I also believe 'valiant' means simply 'having that mighty change, which means one will 'possess 'the pure love of Christ' (Charity), especially for their spouse & keep their covenants to them 'unconditionally', by putting their spouse's needs, welfare & desires continually above their own, no matter what that spouse may do or where they may go.

[sbsion]

question the, when Abraham "put out" Hagar, would that be inline with your statement?

[Samuel the Lamanite]

OI: Beautifully put. So are you saying that we MUST be valient to get to the CK but in different ways? If we're NOT valient in any way or just a very few ways, what then? Do you think there are priorities/even musts in the areas we must be valient or it makes no difference just so we are valient? I too am VEER glad that Jesus has to make those judgements and not I but IF I reach being a joint heir with Christ, will I have to judge people on the world I "rule?"

IMO, we must be valient in the three missions of the Church: Prefecting ourselves and others, missionary work, and work for the dead. If we fall short in anyone of these areas, we aren't really valient. I also like what Paul said, " I'm NOT ashamed of the Gospel of Chirst. I belive he meant we MUST stand up and defend JS, Jesus and the Restored Gospel.

What say ye'll?

[reese]

Does this apply even to those who have received their endowments and sealed but end up NOT being valient? I thought being endowed and sealed was enogh to be assigned to the Celestial Glory?

It does not matter if you are endowed and sealed in the temple. The only way for you to get into the celestial kingdom is if that endowment and sealing are sealed by the Holy Spirit. And that requires being reborn/baptism by fire at the very least, and probably calling and election as well, if not more.

sbsion said:valient= having recieved the might change, the second comfortor, callilng and election. power in the priesthood through ALL generations of time and.....(2tmp).........oh well

sbsion, if you are not valient in these things, then wouldn't that mean outer darkness instead of the terrestial kingdom?

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Reese: The D+C says the Terrestrial Glory NOT outer darkness. OD is reserved only for those who lost their first estate and denied the HG after receiving a sure witness. FWIW, since LDS are the only people in the wolrd who have the GIFT of the HG, IMO we Saints are the ones in most danger of outer darkness.

[Original_Intent]

I honestly don't know the answer. Like I said we each have unique sets of gifts and challenges to overcome. I am sure that before we have our own worlds something that we MUST do is learn how to judge all fo those minute details in a just manner. As far as the questions what if we are not valainat in any ways or in very few ways...I guess that is where the "many mansions" come in and each will be rewarded accordingly.

It's like taking the parable of the talents...the parable doesn;t go into detail of what about a servant that got ten talents and only gained 1 more talent profit, or 3,4, etc. We don;t know how the servant that got one talent and gained 2 more compares to the servant who got 5 talents and gained 3 more. That is the subjective part. I am sure we in the eternities will learn how to do that perfect judging that balances everyone in the same scale, no one has any complaints and everyone's knee must bow and say our judgement is just. I'm pretty sure we don't have the details on that and expect it is going to take time (probably more than we have available during our probationary state) to learn.

I hope you don't consider this evasive: let me just say I think it is likely something unknowable during mortality. It is something that is certainly far beyond my current comprehension, and even if someone knew the answer, I don't believe it could be taught. Not because it would be forbidden (although it might be) but I simply think that words could not express it, and it will require direct intelligence to intelligence communication to learn.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

OI: You IMO are not being in anyway evasive. I can't tell you how grateful I am for our great discussions on this thread.

[reese]

Reese: The D+C says the Terrestrial Glory NOT outer darkness. OD is reserved only for those who lost their first estate and denied the HG after receiving a sure witness. FWIW, since LDS are the only people in the wolrd who have the GIFT of the HG, IMO we Saints are the ones in most danger of outer darkness.

Yes, but how many LDS's have actually recieved the Holy Ghost. Being told to receive it during confirmation, and actually receiving it are two different things. But, yes I agree with you. I think there will be very few LDS's in the terrestial kingdom, where much is given...it will be the top or the bottom for most of us.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Reese: to clarify... I think many Saints think they are bound for the CK but lack of valience to one's covenants will place one in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I beleive many of us will be shocked. IMO, the Saints need some "shocking" to get them out of their Terrestrail comfort zone. IMO, that is partially the role of a caring Bishop, SP and GA.

I don't think many endowed saints will end up in Telestial Kingdom. Go back anr read about the nature of Telestial beings. My expereince is that no one I know who is active fits in any of the Telestia criteria.

[Original_Intent]

Reese: to clarify... I think many Saints think they are bound for the CK but lack of valience to one's covenants will place one in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I beleive many of us will be shocked. IMO, the Saints need some "shocking" to get them out of their Terrestrail comfort zone. IMO, that is partially the role of a caring Bishop, SP and GA.

I don't think many endowed saints will end up in Telestial Kingdom. Go back anr read about the nature of Telestial beings. My expereince is that no one I know who is active fits in any of the Telestia criteria.

I agree completely. I do not think the telestial is the danger for most of us. Yes, where much is given, much is required. But I tend to agree with Samuel that failing to live up to that is going to bring a terrestrial rather than celestial glory (and I also agree that many would be shocked at their current status and the law they think they are living. I expect to be shocked myself, so I try to keep my expectations low. (i.e. it is far better to sit at a low table and be asked by the host to come to a better table, than to take a seat in a place of honor and be asked by the host to take a lesser seat.) My own personal believe is that everyone is going to be happy where they are, within their own sphere. When the FINAL judgement happens I don't I don't think people will be wishing for a higher glory - I think they will find themselves PERFECTLY suited for wherever they end up, and even those in the telestial and terrestrial will glorify God and be thankful for their salvation from death and hell. I'll avoid the eternal-progression-for-all can of worms if at all possible here...

Samuel it looks like we may end up being friends whether you like it or not,,,

[reese]

Reese: to clarify... I think many Saints think they are bound for the CK but lack of valience to one's covenants will place one in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I beleive many of us will be shocked. IMO, the Saints need some "shocking" to get them out of their Terrestrail comfort zone. IMO, that is partially the role of a caring Bishop, SP and GA.

I don't think many endowed saints will end up in Telestial Kingdom. Go back anr read about the nature of Telestial beings. My expereince is that no one I know who is active fits in any of the Telestia criteria.

True.
However it does say in D&C that those who can't see past a prophet(yes even a true prophet) will end up in the telestial kingdom, not the terrestial. So there will be some level of "believers" there.

[Amore Vero]

My expereince is that no one I know who is active fits in any of the Telestia criteria.

Actually my experience is that it seems 'most' of the active & 'seemingly faithful' members I know are committing Telestial level sins, yet they never see or think that they are.

[Amore Vero]

question the, when Abraham "put out" Hagar, would that be inline with your statement?

I believe Abraham was just following the wishes of his wife, as God told him to do & he was just ending his living polygamy at Sarah's request.

Sariah had apparently finally learned that she shouldn't have forced Abraham into living polygamy & that it was not the right way to get a child for herself, & that she should of had more faith in God to fulfill his promises directly through her, which we know he later did.

Women desperate for children often fall for unwise things & God & Abraham just let Sariah learn the hard way.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Amore: What Tedlestial level sins are you referring to specifically linking to the verse? OK?

[Amore Vero]

Amore: What Telestial level sins are you referring to specifically linking to the verse?

Assuming you mean D&C 76, it appears that most all of the members of the Church have never truly received the Gospel of Christ, which is Charity, nor have they ever had a true testimony of Jesus (Charity). (vs.82)

They all have their own version of the Gospel, but not Christ's version. (vs. 99), & never truly received the Prophet's teachings (which are all based on Charity) or the everlasting covenant (which is all about promising to have Charity). (vs. 101)

They are liars, sorcerers, adulterers & those who love & make a lie. (Pretenders of righteousness) (vs. 103). They commit or support the vilest of evils. Yet they don't even realize what they do, for sin or supporting sin, blinds the eyes & hardens the heart, so they still feel so righteous.

Unfortunately, it appears that most are probably candidates for the Telestial Kingdom.

I believe 2 Nephi 28 also describes the church & it's members in our day.

In fact, I'm not sure I personally know any LDS who truly believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ (Charity). They all say they do, but their actions say otherwise.

[Nan]

I would say anyone not keeping the law of chastity is going to be in the telestial kingdom. There are many people in the church not keeping the law of chastity. For me, being valiant in your testimony, is keeping the covenants we have made both at baptism and in the temple. That is what we have promised to do. Personality has nothing to do with whether we keep our covenants or not.

[sbsion]

[
They are liars, sorcerers, adulterers & those who love & make a lie. (Pretenders of righteousness) (vs. 103). They commit or support the vilest of evils. Yet they don't even realize what they do, for sin or supporting sin, blinds the eyes & hardens the heart, so they still feel so righteous.
Unfortunately, it appears that most are probably candidates for the Telestial Kingdom.
I believe 2 Nephi 28 also describes the church & it's members in our day.
In fact, I'm not sure I personally know any LDS who truly believes in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ (Charity). They all say they do, but their actions say otherwise.

agreed, and likewise with temple work, most that has been done has been done for Telestials...........right ooooooooh, consider, I have a daughter who moved to Ephraim two years ago, divorced, two kids, no job, never visited by a priesthood holder but me since 2009

[Samuel the Lamanite]

If one truly magnifies all callings is that being valient? What does it mean to magnify a calling? IMO, there is a cloae relationship between matgnifying all callings I have and my being valient. What say ye?

[Amore Vero]

If one truly magnifies all callings is that being valient? What does it mean to magnify a calling? IMO, there is a cloae relationship between matgnifying all callings I have and my being valient. What say ye?

If you include the callings of 'husband or wife' & 'father or mother' 1st & foremost, then yes, I would agree that that person is being valiant, if they truly magnify those callings as commanded.

But there is much more to magnifying our callings as spouses than most people realize. Few ever magnify their calling as a spouse in marriage, enough to gain 'true charity' for their spouse, so they can have the 'Holy Spirit of Promise' seal their marriage for eternity.

Other callings in church are important too, but can't save us if we don't magnify our most important callings as spouses & parents, 1st & foremost.

As one G.A. asked a new Bishop I know of, "What is your most important calling?" The Bishop responded with "Home Teacher?... Bishop?" The G.A. then said; "If you neglect your wife, you will raise your eyes in hell."

And even if we are a perfect spouse, yet don't magnify our calling as Bishop, etc, & don't protect those spouses & families under our stewardship, we could still lose our own eternal marriage & family also, because we didn't protect other marriages & families from abuse or disintegration the best we could.

But yes, I agree, magnifying all our callings to the best of our ability, is being valiant. For it takes true Charity to magnify all our callings correctly, & thus we will have proven we possess Charity & it will be well with us at the last day.

[Samuel the Lamanite]

Amore: FWIW, we are on the exact same page. I believe it was ETB who suggested to us what the questions Jesus would ask us at the final judgement. The first was about spouse and children. Then came Church.