What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

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BroJones
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What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by BroJones »

If I'm getting off the Lord's path, heading towards apostasy, I hope someone will let me know! Also, what DOES NOT constitute apostasy is important to know. So this from Elder Oaks is helpful ( DHO below; quoted on another site):


http://tinyurl.com/22o75e

DHO: We have the concept of apostasy. It is grounds for Church discipline. It is far less frequently grounds for Church discipline than immoral behavior. I think if you had 100 Church excommunications, 98 of them would be for immoral behavior. Two of them, perhaps, or one of a hundred, would be for apostasy.

Apostasy, being rare, has to be carefully defined. We have three definitions of apostasy:
one is open, public and repeated opposition to the Church or its leaders. Open, public, repeated opposition to the Church or its leaders — I’ll come back to that in a moment.
A second one is to teach as doctrine something that is not Church doctrine after one has been advised by appropriate authority that that’s false doctrine. In other words, just teaching false doctrine is not apostasy, but [it is] teaching persistently after you’ve been warned. For example, if one were to teach that the Lord requires you to practice plural marriage in this day, it would be apostasy. And the third point would be to affiliate and belong to apostate sects, such as those that preach or practice polygamy.


So, we go back to the first cause of apostasy — open, public and repeated opposition to the Church and its leaders. That does not include searching for a middle ground. It doesn’t include worrying over a doctrine. It doesn’t include not believing a particular doctrine. None of those are apostasy. None of those are the basis of Church discipline. But when a person comes out publicly and opposes the Church, such as by saying, “I do not think anyone should follow the leaders of the Church in their missionary program, calling these young people to go out and preach the gospel,” or whatever the particular issue of the day. And when you go out and begin to “thump the tub” and try to gather opposition and organize opposition and pronounce and preach against the Church — that can be a basis for Church discipline.

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Thank you for that clarification! :)

sisyphus
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Post by sisyphus »

It's been alluded-to in my case that some of my opinions and stands on current issues may be an indication of apostasy. None of those stands fits into the categories of what Dr J. has posted...........it's only that I stick to my guns when it comes to morality, national sovereignty, individual rights and other things as were once commonly agreed upon and recognized by most Americans, and not just LDS's .

Some benighted people among our own beloved membership seem to think that anything not in accordance with today's liberal political views should be counted as borderline apostasy, since there are so few who still understand principles which are the foundations of liberty and a strong social structure.

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BroJones
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Post by BroJones »

thank you, LoveChrist and sisyphus. (PS -- I'm enjoying reading your posts...)

About a year ago when my Bishop called me in to talk, I thought perhaps he would warn me about my references to 9/11 as other than just "Al Qaeda and the Muslims did it" or perhaps my strong and vocal opposition to aggressive war (e.g., the invasion of Iraq, which I consider a "terrible war.")

After all, he was the son of Elder Oaks, and might have heard something from the Brethren about what I was saying...

But no -- he called me in to give me a blessing, knowing that I had been put on administrative leave from BYU. Very nice blessing, too! When I asked if he had heard anything about what I was saying from anyone (like his father) -- he said he had heard nothing about this.

Further, BYU spokesperson Carrie Jenkins in the DESNEWS made a point that BYU did not take a position on "Dr. Jones' theories" as she called them. They were not saying I was wrong... I think they just did not want to be associated with "conspiracy theories" -- from what I read in the newspapers.

I have never had any warning from any one in authority that what I was teaching was false or false doctrine. And I diligently try to stay in harmony with the Book of Mormon and the other Prophets.

If you haven't read what I have written about 9/11, or about the Iraq war, you may wish to go to the Journalof911Studies.com (May 2007 and Sept 2006 volumes), or to ProfJones.com and link from there.

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WYp8riot
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Great Topic

Post by WYp8riot »

I have been falsley acused by other lds members with controlling personalities whom did not agree with my my political beliefs.

Additionally I think members of this forum have brought up accusations of such to other members.


I dont want to be the judge of others on this matter, but it is part of the forum rules now and I think this thread clarifies and simplifies the underlying position of actual apostacy.

sisyphus
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Post by sisyphus »

Thank you DrJones...........the feeling's mutual.

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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

DrJones wrote:thank you, LoveChrist and sisyphus. (PS -- I'm enjoying reading your posts...)

About a year ago when my Bishop called me in to talk, I thought perhaps he would warn me about my references to 9/11 as other than just "Al Qaeda and the Muslims did it" or perhaps my strong and vocal opposition to aggressive war (e.g., the invasion of Iraq, which I consider a "terrible war.")

After all, he was the son of Elder Oaks, and might have heard something from the Brethren about what I was saying...

But no -- he called me in to give me a blessing, knowing that I had been put on administrative leave from BYU. Very nice blessing, too! When I asked if he had heard anything about what I was saying from anyone (like his father) -- he said he had heard nothing about this.

Further, BYU spokesperson Carrie Jenkins in the DESNEWS made a point that BYU did not take a position on "Dr. Jones' theories" as she called them. They were not saying I was wrong... I think they just did not want to be associated with "conspiracy theories" -- from what I read in the newspapers.

I have never had any warning from any one in authority that what I was teaching was false or false doctrine. And I diligently try to stay in harmony with the Book of Mormon and the other Prophets.

If you haven't read what I have written about 9/11, or about the Iraq war, you may wish to go to the Journalof911Studies.com (May 2007 and Sept 2006 volumes), or to ProfJones.com and link from there.
Before "meeting" you on here I was curious about what the situation was at BYU and I noted that they did not take a position, and that said a lot to me. :)

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Post by Rock34 »

Imagine how many apostates there would be if, rather than saying the church will not fall away as a whole in this dispensation, but as Paul said about his dispensation -- that there would be a falling away.

All apostates need is a quote to state their church is falling away at the top. I suppose some could say that since the second coming has not yet happened, Paul's statements still apply, but we also have D&C saying the church will not be taken off the earth till the millennium; in other words, never.

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Post by BroJones »

Rock has a good point.

At the same time, I understand from Pres. Benson and others that there will be a "cleansing", and I've heard that many will fall away from the Church (although the Church will continue into the millenium).

What do you think might cause a large falling away? Some statement by a General Authority? Probably not. An economic collapse? Possibly, happened around 1839 and caused disaffections among many saints at the time. A major embarrasment?

What else? (In other words, how do we prepare to AVOID falling away?)

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Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

DrJones wrote:Rock has a good point.

At the same time, I understand from Pres. Benson and others that there will be a "cleansing", and I've heard that many will fall away from the Church (although the Church will continue into the millenium).

What do you think might cause a large falling away? Some statement by a General Authority? Probably not. An economic collapse? Possibly, happened around 1839 and caused disaffections among many saints at the time. A major embarrasment?

What else? (In other words, how do we prepare to AVOID falling away?)
There are many forms of falling away. If we read about Missouri and what happened among the saints there, we can see that there are dissenters, or break offs all the time. The Lord states that it was pride and disobedience and a list of other things. I read them in sacrament today. I think it was section 101, but I am not certain, I read a few today.

I think that new revelation could be a cause. Or being asked to submit to a tyrant and have patience might. Or maybe even politics, or a ton of other possibilities. Being deceived happens in so many ways. It is when we think that we know better then the Lord, or his servants. When we think that they are wrong and so we do not heed their council and we ignore them. When we justify why we do not have to live the laws, when we say things like "It is better then what the world is doing" we set ourselves up for it too....

Darren keeps making this point, and I just think of it a little differently. He tells us to look to God. It is where we are looking.

The way to prevent separation is to turn to our Father in Heaven, strive to be like him, repent daily, center out lives on Christ and the gospel, those are the things that help us stay true. The scriptures, if we truly read and ponder will help us not be deceived.

And as we were told in a meeting, we MUST have the Holy Ghost with us at all times. And the "For the Strength of Youth" pamphlet, should really be called "17 ways to have the Holy Ghost with you." And literally, if we adults live those things within that pamphlet, we will be "Strengthening the Youth." For the youth to be strong, we set the example. (Hope that makes sense) when sister Beck, I think it was, said that, it just pierced me so deeply.....

"as a man (or woman) thinketh, so it he"

"where your treasure is, there your heart is also"

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve."

We must Hold Fast to the Iron Rod, not cling, not just think about it, but actually Hold Fast....

In my mind's eye, I think of hold fast as being in a tornado like atmosphere, literally with arms and legs wrapped around the Iron rod, hanging on with all I have to survive. That is the image that I think of with Hold Fast.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

Just to stirs things upo a little. the promise I beleive said that the Priesthood would never again be taken from the earth. Please rememebr that the D+C has set up a court procedure even for the President of the High Preists in the Church. IF apostacy wasn't a possibility no matter how remote, why set up a Church Court procedure? Could it be that Gods expects us to be watching and NOT counting of HIM to do what we should do?

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by WYp8riot »

Captain Moroni wrote:Just to stirs things upo a little. the promise I beleive said that the Priesthood would never again be taken from the earth. Please rememebr that the D+C has set up a court procedure even for the President of the High Preists in the Church. IF apostacy wasn't a possibility no matter how remote, why set up a Church Court procedure? Could it be that Gods expects us to be watching and NOT counting of HIM to do what we should do?

Legitimate point I percieve.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

Hideentreasures but do you think simply raising this in public is apostacy? I don't. I think God gave us the Gift of Holy Ghost not only for ourselves but to help others to ponder on Gospel truths as presnetd in the cannonized standard works.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

THree that's not fair. You're just repeating the headlines of today. How can you say that it is from the BofM? :|

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DrJones wrote: (In other words, how do we prepare to AVOID falling away?)
Work, work, work. Service is the genius of the gospel. That is what Christ did when he was here.

zion or bust
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Post by zion or bust »

DrJones wrote:Rock has a good point.

At the same time, I understand from Pres. Benson and others that there will be a "cleansing", and I've heard that many will fall away from the Church (although the Church will continue into the millenium).

What do you think might cause a large falling away? Some statement by a General Authority? Probably not. An economic collapse? Possibly, happened around 1839 and caused disaffections among many saints at the time. A major embarrasment?

What else? (In other words, how do we prepare to AVOID falling away?)
I don't have all of the answers to this. Some thoughts. I have thought of D&C 101:4-5. "Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.
For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified."

I think Elder Ballard used this scripture up at BYU-I recently. I think we will have to deal with some hard times, probably even beyond the economic collapse--maybe persecution over the gay marriage issue etc. The key will be to endure it and not chaff at it and blame the Lord. That is one thing.

But the best thing is just to be firm, steadfast, and immovable. We have a great example from some Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. Alma 23:6. "And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away."

That is pretty powerful--never did fall away.

Also, 3 Ne. 6:14. "And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord."

So really, it is going to come down to how much resolve we have. How much do we desire to be faithful no matter what.

There are other things but this is sufficient for now.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

Zion or bust, very true statements. Stand steadfast in Christ which can never fail you. Humans are fallible and can fail us.

zion or bust
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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by zion or bust »

Captain Moroni wrote:Zion or bust, very true statements. Stand steadfast in Christ which can never fail you. Humans are fallible and can fail us.
Good point CM. Being steadfast in Christ (see 2 Ne. 31:19) is the only way--since Christ is the way (see John 14:6; 2 Ne. 31:21). He is also the word of God (see John 1:1-3, 14) and if we cling to him and his word we will overcome the power of the adversary (see 1 Ne. 15:23-24; Hel. 3:29-30) and land our souls in heaven, to go no more out. Now that is a good phrase, to make it and "go no more out."

I think we underappreciate what the Savior can do for us. This site seems devoted to the Constitution and freedom and holding up the title of liberty. We worry about what is happening to our country and to the trials we are facing and will face and yet I think we despair too much and don't look to Christ the way we ought to.

I thought of an example in the Book of Mormon that provides hope. In Moroni 9, Mormon writes to his son Moroni and describes just how barbaric the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations had descended before the Nephites were destroyed (see vs. 7-10). Then there are other descriptive words and phrases to let us know how bad they have become. e.g. without civilization, delight in so much abomination, awful brutality, depravity, without order, without mercy, strong in their perversion, delight in everything save that which is good, without principle, without feeling. But does Mormon leave Moroni without hope? No, he provides a great key which we will need now and in the future. vs. 25-26 say, "My son, be faithful in Christ; and may not the things which I have written grieve thee, to weigh thee down unto death; but may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever. And may the grace of God the Father, whose throne is high in the heavens, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who sitteth on the right hand of his power, until all things shall become subject unto him, be, and abide with you forever. Amen."

That, to me, provides great hope for dealing with adversity and also preventing apostasy. Christ can lift us up out of the insanity of it all if we focus on him and his atonement.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by WYp8riot »

Captain Moroni wrote:Hideentreasures but do you think simply raising this in public is apostacy? I don't. I think God gave us the Gift of Holy Ghost not only for ourselves but to help others to ponder on Gospel truths as presnetd in the cannonized standard works.

Public questioning and opposing are two different things. As the quote above states it is public opposition. My thoughts are this... As stated By Gorden B Hinkley, It is better to do right than to be right. I am not offended by questioning that which seems to be in opposition to correct principles and doctirine and prophetic statements that have never been recalled. However I think the other thing we need remember is that The Church doesnt = THE GOSPEL, however it is to be an organization and a house of order withoout mutiny. Which I believe may be a large part of the need to not Publicly oppose what we may percieve to be wrong.

Again I am not convinced Public questioning is the same and would constitute apostacy. What ever choices are made we all have our judgement day and we all reap what we sow and we all face the consequences sooner or later for our actions. God is just.

Captain Moroni
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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

Zion or bust, thanks for the hope verses. Actaully I've been enrgized greatly by the battle gaining strength to force Obama to prove he is native born American. BTW, he isn't. The spirit has strongly whispered to me.

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Captain Moroni
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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

The most important test will be to the unwise virgins who are left behind when the beast arises and says take the 666 mark upon you and deny the Chirst or DIE or be cut off from food, etc and die a slow death. This will occure IMO within the next four years.

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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

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Captain Moroni
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Re: What constitutes APOSTASY? And helping each other avoid it

Post by Captain Moroni »

Brother, yes you will NOT be able to work in least legally.

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