an inquiring non-member

[jnjnelson]

I have still been looking for the three levels of heaven in the D&C can't find it yet but I will keep looking.

Again, I invite you to read Doctrine and Covenants section 76 (http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

So here a prophet says not every one will be saved, maybe only half the Mormons will be saved. So this is different from what you believe which is everyone is saved but not exalted.

Being saved in the celestial kingdom is the same thing as (is 100% equal in meaning to) being exalted. That is what exaltation is - being saved in the celestial kingdom. There is no difference. Therefore, to say that we would be doing well if ½ of Mormons were saved in the celestial kingdom would be accurate. In fact, there would be a great deal of rejoicing if a single person is exalted (saved in the celestial kingdom.) (See Doctrine & Covenants 18:15-16)

[scitor]

Hello every one
it has been a very busy week and I know I have not been good about keeping up with the posts. I have peeked in a couple of times and seen everyone contributing and I will try to go over as much as I can this weekend to answer
scitor

[scitor]

Here is a few more from the book "Temple and Cosmos"

"Apocryphal Writings and Teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls"

Throughout Christian literature, going to heaven is consistently described as a return to an old home, which raises the notion of premortal existence. In the First Apocalypse of James, the Lord says to the apostles, "They will ask you where you are going. Your answer: The place from which I came. I return to that place."146 "The elect are those individuals," says the Gospel of Thomas, "who shall find the Kingdom, because they came from it in the first place."147 The Gospel of Truth dwells at length on the theme of the return:

Whoever has this knowledge is a being from on high. When he is called, he hears, answers, and turns toward him who calls and reascends to him. He knows when he is called; he knows whence he has come, and where he is going. He has turned many from error and proceeded unto places which belong to them, but from which they have strayed. Joy to the man who has rediscovered himself, awakened, and has helped others to wake up.

148

Just so, according to the Manichaean Psalm-Book (a marvelous book), Adam is received by a happy family when he dies and goes back to the other side. We are told that on the other side they have been awaiting him in high expectation. They have been awaiting the return of the first man and news from him. They eagerly await the news of his victory, the success of his mission. And they want to hear it from his own mouth when he returns.149 On his part, Adam, being away from home, asked the news-bearer who comes down to visit him after his death (he's called "the news-bearer of the skies"), "How is my Father, the Father of Light? How is my Mother, the Mother of the Living, whom I left, and her brethren also? Rejoice with me, ye Holy Ones, for I have returned to my original state again, my archaic, my original rule, and place."150 And again, in leaving the earth, he says, "My hour is come; they summon me. I will go from your midst and return to my true home."151 Accordingly, the Sent One comes to take the soul of Adam back to the great first house of the Father, to the place where he formerly lived.152 And so his children are admonished, "Arise, oh soul, return to your original home, to the place from which you were planted. Put on your garment of glory, sit down upon your throne, and dwell in the dwellings among thy brethren."153 Again, the Ginza says, "Now, arise and return to the place of your true family."154 "I came from the house of my father," says the Psalm of Thomas, "from a far land. I shall mount up until I return to the land of the pure."155 In a moving scene at the end of The Pearl (an early Christian hymn), the hero finally returns to his home, his mission accomplished. He is met at the "gate of greeting and honor" (as it's called) by his entire family. He bows and worships his Father, and the Christ and the Father, the Eldest Son who is with him, "who has sent him the garments and given him the orders of what he should do to get back. All the princes of the house were gathered at the gate. All embraced me with tears of joy." And as the organ played, they all walked back into the house together.156

Commenting on this, Gregory of Nyssa, one of the great Doctors of the fourth century, observes: Christians are all confused about the premortal existence (he refers to the state of things in his church in Palestine). Some say we lived in families there, and in tribes, just as we do here, and that we lost our wings when we came down here, and that we'll get them back again upon returning.157 The Christians mixed up tenable and untenable, and all sorts of other teachings. The church was in great confusion on this doctrine in the fourth century. Regardless of what the true explanation might have been, it is clear by such remarks from the early Fathers that the early church did preach the premortal existence, the idea of coming from heaven and returning. Pope Paul VI is preaching that, referring to life as a short pilgrimage away from home, etc. These ideas are coming back. Talk of returning to heaven as a return home does away with creation from nothing (creatio ex nihilo). If we just came into existence here—if this is the only place we've ever lived—why are we homesick? Why aren't we properly adjusted here? Why does everybody suffer a nostalgia and want to return to their heavenly home? Thus the Pope talks about being strangers here; this is a wayfaring church; we are lost here, wandering, looking for a return to our heavenly home, etc.158 He himself has been reading these early writings. The decline of the idea of creation ex nihilo of course necessitates our existence in some sort of a spiritual state before our coming here.


"The Terrible Questions"

With regard to a premortal existence, Clement said, "Well, if I live after, I must have lived before. Doesn't that follow?"112 The idea of "the memory of all former births" and of "Buddha-lands innumerable"113 is akin, in its appeal, to the individual ego of Plato's anamnesis and its elaboration by Plotinus. They believed in it. In other words, it's an idea older than the Jews and Christians, an ongoing belief from very early times. Iamblichus, commenting on Pythagoras, notes that it was the story of Euphorbus and the Phrygian in Homer which offered a key to the recollection of one's premortal existence; and even finds the genius of Homer to lie in his power to stir such intimations of immortality—a sense of other world, in all of us.114 Plotinus, one of the greatest of the Christian Neoplatonists, argues that the recognizable differences in children at their very birth shows that each must bring something with him into this life from another one115 (as anyone who has had a lot of children recognizes).

R. H. Charles, commenting on 2 Enoch 23:4 says: "For all souls are prepared to eternity, before the foundation of the world," and he notes that "the Platonic doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul is here taught. We find that it had already made its way into Jewish thought in Egypt. . . . This doctrine was accepted and further developed by Philo [De Somniis i:22]. . . . This doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul was, according to Josephus, . . . held by the Essenes. . . . It became a prevailing doctrine in later Judaism,"116 and is still taught by the Hasidic Jews who join the Church, one of the reasons they accept the gospel. They firmly believe in the doctrine.

Origen, following the teaching of the early brethren (an interesting explanation of why people are born so unequally), explains these inequities on the grounds that the soul had a previous existence in a life of its own, where even as in this life it was given its free agency by the Creator: such souls as grew weary in doing good entered this life at a disadvantage, having passed the test less satisfactorily.117

The Pastor of Hermas (c. A.D. 120), in one of the earliest postapostolic writings we have, says, "All flesh which is found undefiled and unspotted, wherein the Holy Spirit dwelt, shall receive a reward."118 Clement of Alexandria, in the second century, writes, "God knew us before the foundation of the world, and chose us for our faithfulness even at that time. . . . Now we have become babes to fulfill the plan of God."119

Clement of Rome, whom Barnabas converted, tells us that "cujus interna species est antiquior," that the Earth was created and prepared for man, whose real nature, though he came last of all, is older than any of it. And Clement's Second Epistle to the Corinthians tells us of "the first church, the spiritual [one, (spiritum) which] was created before sun and moon." He says he got the doctrine from "The Book of the Apostles."120 Man existed before the creation of the world—a doctrine that Peter taught him.

The Dead Sea Scrolls bring up much of this creationism material. In the Odes of Solomon, for example, one of the early Christian hymns, we read, "For I know them," says the God of the Saints, "and before they came into being I took knowledge of them, and on their faces I set my seal. . . . By my own right hand I set my elect ones."121 The famous poet of The Pearl said the same thing.

Thanks to the Patrologia, a collection of the writings of all the Christian Fathers, in chronological order, which grows all the time, we literally have hundreds of volumes of writings; and the first volumes say more on this subject than any others, because Christians depart from the doctrine after that. In these volumes the editor, J.-P. Migne, speaks of the four different positions on the subject. "For some taught that the spirit was before the body, others that it came after, still others, that they came into existence together, while others are not willing to make any assertion. Along with these opinions should be mentioned the errors of the Pythagoreans, Platonists, Gnostics, and Origenists."122 The later Doctors still could not make up their minds. "Under the influence of the prevailing philosophy, many Christian thinkers asked themselves," writes H. de Leusse, "in the third and fourth centuries, if it was permissible to think of a pre-existence of souls."123 Augustine believed the doctrine firmly up until the year A.D. 410; after that, he hesitates, and does not cease to hesitate between traducianism (the idea that the spirit enters the body at the moment of conception, and didn't exist before, but was "traduced" into the body at the moment of conception) and infusionism (the idea that the spirit existed before). . . . He repeats endlessly that he has not made up his mind. In short, Augustine "truly does not know, . . . and it is perhaps temerity to want to penetrate a mystery reserved to God himself."124 So the first of the great Latin theologians, who got nearly all of his doctrines from Origen, anyway, could never resolve the problem for himself.

In A.D. 523, the African bishops agreed that "we should either leave the question in silence or consider it without contention"; since "the holy scriptures give us no clear statement, it should be investigated with caution. The more so since it's possible for the faithful to ignore it without any particular disadvantage (detrimento) to their faith."125

Brigham Young said that more Saints apostatized because of the doctrine of premortal existence than any other doctrine—more than polygamy, more than tithing, more than jealousies, or anything else. Over it, people left the Church in droves, yet today, everybody accepts the doctrine as the most natural thing in the world. Eliza R. Snow, as well as Wordsworth, taught it. When Augustine's personal friend Jerome read in Revelation 4:6 about the familiar animals around the throne of God—the same types of beasts found on earth—and asked whether this didn't imply a premortal existence, he rejected the idea, because such literalism destroys the allegorical value of the scriptures.126 If you take it literally, you can't use it as an allegory.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... hapid=1154" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

OK,
I'll start here. Semipiternalharbinger has said i have "still not answered Lukeair's questions". I am not sure what those questions are in particular but will start with Semipiternalharbinger's post, which pertains to a premortal existence and a post earthly divine one. Please refresh my memory on Lukeairs questions, sorry i am so unprepared. Please be patient with me. Thanks.

In the beginning of your post I see that you use a lot of extra biblical text for proof. It is not very convincing to me, I am pretty much only convinced by logical interpretation of the bible. Now I know that you have not been very impressed by logic and you have told me your reasons.

The very fact that John's gospel begins with in the beginning was the "logov" which is the greek for Logos which means logic,logical reason. must mean something, don't you think? it is interesting that the name of Christ is Reason. God says "Come let us reason together" (isaiah 1:18)
So logic should not "go out the window" when faith is present. Paul tells us we should use our new minds to "test and prove the will of God" (Romans 12:2) We should use our new ability to reason correctly to test the spirits that come to us and find out if they bear the truth. We are not supposed to measure what we hear against our feelings or experiences but against the word of god, the words of Christ which we are told to keep with us " if my words remain in you...(John 15:7). This is telling me that the words Christ spoke are our measuring stick and the words God spoke to the Jews through his prophets are the measuring stick. So for me as long as everything "reasons" logically with what God has left for us in the law the prophets, the Gospels Acts and epistles, then it adds up as truth to me, no matter what religion it comes from.

Regardless of how Clement and Plotinus reasoned their beliefs, they don't make sense to me. To say "because i live after must mean I lived before" is not immediately obvious to me. In Genesis God picks up some dirt, squeezes it around and makes man. Just because he lived after God formed him from mud doesn't automatically mean he existed before except as mud. Because God says he "foreknew" man, means that man existed before as a conception in God's mind.

RH Charles comment that " all souls are prepared for eternity before the beginning of the world" is true. We existed in the mind of god and this is where he prepared our existence in time .If he foreknew and predestined us (Romans 8) then he obviously prepared us from before the beginning of the world. And "He set eternity in the hearts of men" (Ecc. 3:11NIV) Let's use the King James Version here because it is so beautiful and also because you like it best. "Also he hath set the world in their heart so that no man can find out the work that god maketh from the beginning of the world" Well, now we have a conflict because we have the word eternity and the word world in two different translations. So we will go to the hebrew "owlam" which means "eternity, in perpetuity , forever, always, continuous existence". OK, so in that particular instance the King James didn't really use the best translation of the word. We will go with the eternity translation because it talks about timlessness. In my estimation the NIV has the best translation of this verse "He has set eternity in the hearts of men, yet so they cannot fathom what god has done from beginning to end" "Those of us that God foreknew" (Romans 8:29)have something in us that is predestined and foreknown by God, something that has its being in an eternal ,timeless dimension. But because we exist in a timebound dimension we cannot fathom it, meaning we cannot understand it, it is beyond us. After the death of Christ made it possible, the Holy Spirit will begin to conform us to the image of Christ. Romans 8:29 "those he foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" This is the process interpreted as sanctification, being made ready for eternity. This is the part that requires obedience which God has made it possible for us to now give, because we have the Spirit "For we are created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us" (Ephesians 2:10) this means that those with the spirit are a new creation in Christ " therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Cor5:17) The Spirit prepares men to become like Christ. It does not say they are going back to be what they were before they were born, it says they are going to become something they were not before. (Although Joseph Smith did not believe that Christ dwells in the hearts of man "The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false" (D&C 130:3))

In your post you have given a lot of church fathers and philosophers of the times interpretations of eternity and people being in the image of God. They just don't add up to me.
I have read in the Doctrines and in the Discourses that the Mormon prophets believe that man is made in the image of God meaning that therefore God is a person like us with flesh and limbs
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... (Joseph Smith, Follet Discourses)
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22). Joseph Smith
This is not an idea limited to joseph Smith either, I have seen the same idea put forth by several of the mormon Prophets including B. Young, John Widtsoe, Parley Pratt and others. Therefore i must conclude that Mormons do not agree with the Biblical verse "God is spirit and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth" John 4:24)
I guess this interpretation must come from Genesis 1:27, because the whole thing about God being flesh and blood is not in the book of Mormon, (unlessI am missing it, if I am I apologize please tell me where to find it.)
However, this doesn't make sense to me either.
Think of the picture of an ice cream cone, it is in the image of an ice cream cone, but at the same time it is very different from a real ice cream cone. Say I only have two dimensions to work with and someone says, make a tree, I am stuck with making a two dimensional image of a tree which, although it looks like a tree, is very different from the tree, not even made out of the same stuff. Now take god, who first created time and space, so already he is preparing a non-eternal space for man which indicates dimensions. God is eternal and he is spirit yet Adam was not. So Adam was in a time/space dimension where God was eternal, and Adam was man where God was spirit. So already we see there are differences. So God made adam in some dimension, (I would think a higher one than the third, and we fell to the third) lets just say for illustrative purposes he made him in the fourth dimension, that means that he formed him in his image but since God has infinity dimensions and man is just existing in four that its kind of like the difference between the 3 dimensional ice cream come and the 2 dimensional one. Although they look alike, they are very very different, not even made of the same stuff.

Also I knowMormon's believe that they will become Gods, you have told me this, it is part of the exaltation process, however this als is in conflict with the bible whereGod says in Isaiah 43:10, "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me"
So none of Semipiternalharbinger's interpretations add up to me.

[scitor]

I have still been looking for the three levels of heaven in the D&C can't find it yet but I will keep looking.

Again, I invite you to read Doctrine and Covenants section 76 (http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

So here a prophet says not every one will be saved, maybe only half the Mormons will be saved. So this is different from what you believe which is everyone is saved but not exalted.

Being saved in the celestial kingdom is the same thing as (is 100% equal in meaning to) being exalted. That is what exaltation is - being saved in the celestial kingdom. There is no difference. Therefore, to say that we would be doing well if ½ of Mormons were saved in the celestial kingdom would be accurate. In fact, there would be a great deal of rejoicing if a single person is exalted (saved in the celestial kingdom.) (See Doctrine & Covenants 18:15-16)

I will read Doctrines 76 and comment on it later. Thank you for finding that for me.

The whole mormon conception of salvation is wildly confusing to me. Earlier in the thread I had people telling me that everyone would be saved but only some would be exalted. Now you are saying being saved is the same as being exalted.
So is salvation different from exaltation or the same?

[mattctr]

The whole mormon conception of salvation is wildly confusing to me. Earlier in the thread I had people telling me that everyone would be saved but only some would be exalted. Now you are saying being saved is the same as being exalted.
So is salvation different from exaltation or the same?

We believe a majority of mankind, except a very few, will be saved in one of the kingdoms God has prepared--Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial.
So, some will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom, which is synonymous with exaltation, etc. (These are Co-Inheritors with Christ; they will enjoy the full presence of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.)
Others will be saved in the Terrestrial Kingdom (Will be able to receive visits from the Son and the Holy Ghost).
Still others will be saved in the Telestial Kingdom (Will be able to receive visits from the Holy Ghost).

Saved Chart.png (7.98 KiB) Viewed 1699 times

I hope that distinction helps. All kingdoms ARE kingdoms of Glory, where much of mankind will be saved--plucked from hell and the devil. However, a few will be resurrected to the highest kingdom to receive exaltation or life in the direct presence of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

D&C 76 will help clarify this. You can also read this "Gospel Principles" chapter for clarification: http://lds.org/manual/gospel-principles ... t?lang=eng

[keeprunning]

We also mean that everyone will be resurrected, but only some will be saved or exalted in the highest kingdom.

We believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 3 seperate and distinct beings, but they are One in purpose, which constitute the Godhead. The Holy Ghost can dwell in us.

[scitor]

I am trying to figure out how Mormons classify true faith.

Try Alma chapter 32. True faith is faith in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Any faith that leads one not to the Savior is not of the Savior.

No one yet has offered me a place in the book of Mormon to locate heaven's levels or people becoming gods, can't you see how this might be a little confusing?

Just as it is impossible to find all the doctrines of any other Christian religion within the Bible, it is impossible to find all Mormon doctrines within the Bible, or only within the Book of Mormon. The levels of glory we all obtain after this life are outlined sufficiently in Doctrine and Covenants section 76, along with many other sections in that book.

However, section 76, along with the rest of the Doctrine and Covenants and the entire Book of Mormon, can hold no authority unless one recognizes that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon through the power of God, and that he received revelation through the power of God.

Maybe its your prophets, how about Brigham Young? Is he a good measuring stick, I know he is one of your most famous, or Joseph Smith, can you use what they say as determining what you believe?

This is exactly what each individual must determine for themselves. If you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, accepting the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as the word of God is the natural, logical, and spiritual conclusion to that acceptance. The acceptance of Joseph Smith as a prophet of God must ultimately come through the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, but once that acceptance is reached, everything else becomes very simple. Not easy, but definitely simple.

OK, so I read Doctrines 76 and there are things that conflict with both the Bible in here, that bothers me and also the whole concept of the 3 glories and heavens is missing for your book of Mormon. So I guess the very disjointed nature of it i find confusing. All the books of the bible add up and depend on one another for their verification. Christ was able to prove who he was and what he was saying by reference to the Old Testament. You have different books which say different things, and prophets who say different things from the books. Too confusing for me. I need something that hangs together, like Christ the "Logov" is logical "in him all things hold together" (Col 1:17) so his words which he cautions us to remember always, have to be logical like him and hang together, because in him is no "variation or shadow of turning" (James 1:17) So I really don't get the whole Mormon discounting of the importance of logical testing of religions.


Doctrine 76:
24That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sonsand daughters unto God

13Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

35Having adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, havingbcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open cshame.

So there are contradictions in these three verses. In the bible and in two verses here they proclaim Christ the only begotten son, but then in 76:24 it says that the inhabitants of the worlds created by god are all his begotten sons and daughters.
42That through him all might be asaved whom the Father had put into his bpower and made by him;


In 76:42 it seems to confirm that all are saved into whom god places his power (and we know from the bible that that is the spirit of Christ, Romans 8:11 the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you and romans 8:9 if any man has not the spirit of Christ he is none of him


even though J. Smith proclaimed the idea that the father and son dwell in a man's heart to be false (DC130:3)
52That by akeeping the commandments they might be bwashedand ccleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;
Again, this is not biblical "tHusbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (ephesians 5:25-26)


58Wherefore, as it is written, they are agods, even the bsons ofcGod—psalm 82:6
One meaning of eloyhim is rulers or magistrates. Considering all of psalm 82 is spent chastening israel for not using the authority given to them by God correctly, I will assume that that is how eloyhim meant here

81And again, we asaw the glory of the btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
91And thus we saw the glory of the aterrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.
18That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to abear his bpresence in the world of glory.
i see that here is your 3 glories and your 3 heavens. To me the word glory means a type of reality and power conferred by the dimension you live in, this makes the best sense according to its usage in the bible. I don't really understand the Mormon sense of it
I mean, by this logic Mohammed said he was a prophet of god, received visions, has a whole book of revelations that he got. And he also says that all true believers must accept that he is the true prophet of God, the others came before but he is the one that must be attended to because he is the most recent.

[jnjnelson]

The whole mormon conception of salvation is wildly confusing to me. Earlier in the thread I had people telling me that everyone would be saved but only some would be exalted. Now you are saying being saved is the same as being exalted.
So is salvation different from exaltation or the same?

Salvation and exaltation are as different as squares and rectangles. A square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares. I'm not sure who said that everyone will be saved, but sons of perdition will not be saved.

That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Those who will be saved in the telestial or in the terrestrial kingdoms will all be saved, but will not be exalted. Exaltation is salvation in the celestial kingdom. Salvation in the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms is not exaltation.

You have different books which say different things, and prophets who say different things from the books. Too confusing for me.

This is your perspective only. From my perspective, all the prophets, ancient and modern, teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Jesus Christ never contradicts with itself. From my perspective, none of these words contradict in any way, and they all cooperate to articulate the simple truths and principles of the gospel.


The phrases in D&C 76:24, D&C 76:13, and D&C 76:35 do not contain any contradiction at all. Christ is the Only Begotten Son, and this title is capitalized for a special reason. Also, verse 24 refers to us as begotten sons and daughters unto God. Is this spiritually begotten or physically begotten? Each of us are spiritual sons and daughters of our Father in Heaven, but only the Savior, Jesus Christ, has a physical body that was created directly by God the Father. This is the difference between the Only Begotten Son, and the rest of us, who are spiritual children of our Father in Heaven. Our physical bodies are begotten by our respective parents, while our spirits are begotten by God the Father.

So I really don't get the whole Mormon discounting of the importance of logical testing of religions.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but I understand it to be against the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to discount the logical testing of religions. It is very important to understand the logical and rational explanations of all truth. Nobody has the ability to understand the eternal and infinite aspects of all the truth, but each person learns line upon line, precept upon precept until they know all the truths in full. While it is important to understand logical and rational explanations of truth, that is not enough, nor is that the highest priority, in understanding truth. The Holy Ghost is the most important teacher of truth, and only through the influence of the Holy Ghost can anyone continue to progress in understanding the logical and rational explanations of truth.


A few more questions, in reference to the other perceived contradictions you articulated: What is the spirit of Christ? Is there a distinction between the spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost? What is the source of glory in the worlds of glory? Does the glory found in heaven come from heaven itself, or does the glory of heaven come from those individuals who dwell in heaven? Does God recognize Mohammed as one of His anointed prophets and rulers in His kingdom?

[[email protected]]

Here is a basic outline of what we believe written by Joseph Smith . . .

The 13 Articles of Faith, written by Joseph Smith, are the basic beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and are located in the volume of scripture called The Pearl of Great Price.

The Thirteen Articles of Faith:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[BeNotDeceived]

...

Also I knowMormon's believe that they will become Gods, you have told me this, it is part of the exaltation process, however this als is in conflict with the bible whereGod says in Isaiah 43:10, "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me"
So none of Semipiternalharbinger's interpretations add up to me.

Hope this helps #-o

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.

Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)

The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped. -http://fairmormon.org/Latter-day_Saint_ ... aiah_43:10

[Rand]

Nice Comment BeNotDeceived. It is apparent that there is a terrestrial level of scriptural interpretation. Scitor used it consistently.