an inquiring non-member

[scitor]

Scitor,

May I make a comment here. I converted to this church when I was 12 years old but really didn't get an answer to my prayers regarding if this church was true and if Joseph Smith was a prophet until I was 23. I didn't go to church from 18 years old to 23 and thats when I decided I needed to find out if it was true - I needed personal revelation. I asked if the Book of Mormon was true and I got an answer. I can explain that answer if anyone wants me to. My purpose for sharing this is - in my logic, if the Book of Mormon was true then I also knew Joseph Smith was a prophet. That's all I needed to know. Now if there were things in the scriptures that I didn't understand I would study, use a forum like this, but this wouldn't work to find out if the church was true. First you need to have faith enough to ask God if the Book of Mormon is true, and you have to read it while asking and second, you have to be asking with real intent, meaning if God reveals to you that yes it is true - what are you going to do with that information, are you ready for that? Ready to act on the answer to your prayer? That means you have real intent. I've really enjoyed your posts and hope you find your answers!

Thank you very much, but in the case of just ask if it is true, what if I say I asked and I got an answer saying it wasn't true? What would that prove to either of us? We need to have some other system of proof which is God-given to all if we are to be able to
exposit these things. I think God gave us the ability to reason, and Peter says always be prepared to give the reason for your hope
(Peter 3:15)
definition of reason :Think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic

If we don't use reason, how will we communicate these things to one another. Would you trust me if i just told you " look read the bible and ask the spirit, even if all the information doesn't add up, it really does"
If this were true, why did God give us knowledge and understanding. Why did he tell us in many of the proverbs how important understanding is? Why is understanding given and part of the spirit of god in Isaiah 11.

What was the reason God gave us the ability to reason and why does he say in the Bible "Come, let us reason together" (Isaiah 1 :18) Yakach hebrew, meaning prove, decide, show to be right.
Paul says our minds are going to be renewed so that we can test and prove the will of God (Romans 12:2) but we have to have a system by which we can do the testing and the proving. And he has given us reason.

[[email protected]]

"We need to have some other system of proof which is God-given to all if we are to be able to exposit these things."

I found this . . .

"I don’t believe, however, that there is secular “proof” for the Book of Mormon, and I believe that such “proof” would contradict the laws of agency. . ."

I got this from
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... proof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

check it out - it's on Evidence versus proof

[scitor]

"We need to have some other system of proof which is God-given to all if we are to be able to exposit these things."

I found this . . .

"I don’t believe, however, that there is secular “proof” for the Book of Mormon, and I believe that such “proof” would contradict the laws of agency. . ."

I got this from
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... proof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

check it out - it's on Evidence versus proof

But by the author's definition the evidence is "data (of some sort) that supports a proposition". The "support" that upholds the proposition is logical, in other words it does not contradict itself.
It does not say:

"the support for Article 3's "salvation comes from an earned grace is in Ephesians 2;8 where Paul says "faith is a free gift which saves you"
that is self contradictory and cannot be believed

[[email protected]]

"faith is a free gift which saves you"

If you exercise it!

[scitor]

"faith is a free gift which saves you"

If you exercise it!

True faith will produce works. Can you imagine a person that had true faith not expressing it in works? That is James point. The person with false faith produces nothing, But the person with true faith will have fruits, And "by their fruits you shall know them"

[freedomforall]

Let's clear something up here. Yes, we do need logic. Logic suggests that if one asks God if the Book of Mormon is true, there can be several different answers.

There can be no answer due to a lack of real intent by the seeker.
There will be no answer due to the reason the seeker doesn't want to put forth any effort to find out.
Satan can appear as a personge of light and tell one it is wrong, or not true. Then the seeker assumes they got an answer from on high. And they logically accept it.

But the best one is while one is in the mode of prayer they get a burning, pleasant, sweet and powerful feeling in their bosom and a definitive yes in their mind that the Book of Mormon is true, then all else doesn't matter because the truth is not just received by one's brain, but is received by the transmission of truth and light from the Spirit of God to the spirit of the seeker. That's when logic goes out the window, because the seeker knows beyond logic that what was revealed is true.

When Joseph Smith set out to ask God about why there were so many different churches and messages, he had no idea of what was going to be revealed to him. Yet he asked with faith and real intent, which goes way beyond logic, in order to find out what he sought for. Come on, just how much logic can a fourteen year old boy possess?

Once he knelt down and began to ask, he was overpowered by Satan...because Satan didn't want young Joseph to know the truth. But soon after, that aweful feeling was replaced with a sweet spirit as God the Father and Jesus Christ descended and stood in mid air above young Joseph.

Now, Scitor, do you suppose that logically speaking, young Joseph would have willingly subjected himself to ridicule, tar and feathering, imprisonment, being spit upon and then ultimately slain by bullets ripping through his flesh...for a LIE...that he had actually seen God? I know of no one.

Jesus Christ went through the same thing when he declared He is the Son of God. He was taken and crucified for blasphemy. His accusers used logic only to hold to their belief, instead of praying about it and getting the truth. So you see, logic goes only so far, then one has to seek truth, with real intent and full purpose of heart.

Who needs logic when they can have truth and fact?

Truth is not always found in the philosophies of men.

True faith is not run on logic as evidenced here.
2 Nephi 9:28
O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

This is why we believe in the Book of Mormon as the word of God, because it reveals much, much more truth for our understanding as to how the Philosophies of men work.

[[email protected]]

Very well said FreedomFighter!

[freedomforall]

Very well said FreedomFighter!

Thank you, sandhollow.

[NoGreaterLove]

from No-Greater-love
Scitor
I think we can all agree that we mortals have very little knowledge compared to God. We can also agree that our ways are not always his ways and our judgement is not always his judgement.

Yes but as Rand reminded me "the mystery of godliness is no excuse for not knowing". The truth is that we are given the mind of Christ. For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16)But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it(1 John 2:20)

This being the case, it is possible for man to make many errors in his interpretation of scripture or teachings from those who have authority from God.

.We can make errors but we can ask him and he will give us the wisdom we need. If any of you lacks Wisdom he should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him" (James 1:5)

So to use the bible or any source as the absolute measuring stick is senseless and will lead to error.

If we use it without the aide of the Spirit you are right it will be just senseless mush"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments," 1 Cor 2:14-15)

The root of your inquiries comes down to one question. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Christ's one and only church or is it fabricated by Satan to lead men astray.

The root of my present inquiry is only can we use the bible as our measuring stick

The only legitimate and trustworthy source to inquire upon is God himself.

That's why we are told to ask him for wisdom concerning the gospel not another man, As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. ( 1 john2:27):or another gospel, When Paul was dealing with the church of Corinth on just these issues he saidif you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.(2 Cor:4) and to the Galatians " But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the
one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" Gal 1:8

I testify to you that I have inquired of God himself in the name of Jesus Christ whether this church is his or not and he has manifested to me through the Holy Ghost that it is the only Church of Jesus Christ.

Ok, then we should be able, as Brigham Young says, discuss that revelation in terms of the bible and have it exposed as true .""Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.126

I now have a sure knowledge of this fact of which I can not deny. Therefore, the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith and President Monson are true prophets of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's Church.
So all other sources are minute in comparison to the witness I have obtained directly from God.
I would exhort you to seek the same truth that you may know truth from error

This is exactly what I am trying to do

Your answers lie within a direct answer from God. Seek them from HIm! We can only discuss doctrines and come to imperfect conclusions on our own. But to know God's answer will bring complete fulfillment in your heart and you will no longer doubt. We can dance around interpretation of scriptures all night. But with an answer from God himself, there is no dance, only truth. Have faith that he will reveal the truth you seek unto you.

[Elizabeth]

How true

Your answers lie within a direct answer from God. Seek them from HIm! We can only discuss doctrines and come to imperfect conclusions on our own. But to know God's answer will bring complete fulfillment in your heart and you will no longer doubt. We can dance around interpretation of scriptures all night. But with an answer from God himself, there is no dance, only truth. Have faith that he will reveal the truth you seek unto you.

[LukeAir2008]

I heard some of you talking about the three levels of heaven where do you get this belief from? Is it in your bible? because I can't find it.

Scitor, it wouldn't really matter if it wasn't in the Bible. Revelation comes through the living anointed servants of God - Prophets and Apostles - not from ancient books which only contain the words of dead prophets. The Bible only tells us some of us what what us going on 2000 years ago. If you had lived in 33 AD you may have said well Im not accepting these false prophets - Peter, James, John, Paul etc - what they are teaching is not in the Old Testament.

But yes the three degrees of glory is recorded in the Bible. There was no doubt much more teaching and instruction on it by Christ and the Apostles but Paul makes one reference to it in 2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.(2 Cor 12:2)

We also believe Paul was referring to the three degrees of glory when he spoke of the resurrection and different types of glory:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.(1 Cor 15:40-41)

[scitor]

I heard some of you talking about the three levels of heaven where do you get this belief from? Is it in your bible? because I can't find it.

Scitor, it wouldn't really matter if it wasn't in the Bible. Revelation comes through the living anointed servants of God - Prophets and Apostles - not from ancient books which only contain the words of dead prophets. The Bible only tells us some of us what what us going on 2000 years ago. If you had lived in 33 AD you may have said well Im not accepting these false prophets - Peter, James, John, Paul etc - what they are teaching is not in the Old Testament.

But yes the three degrees of glory is recorded in the Bible. There was no doubt much more teaching and instruction on it by Christ and the Apostles but Paul makes one reference to it in 2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.(2 Cor 12:2)

We also believe Paul was referring to the three degrees of glory when he spoke of the resurrection and different types of glory:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.(1 Cor 15:40-41)

Actually, I was asking if it was in the book of Mormon. I know now that you do not accept the bible as a final measure, so I am trying to figure where and how much the Book of Mormon fits as a measure. I know that you believe in the three degrees of glory and three heaven levels but cannot find it in the Book of Mormon.

[scitor]

Let's clear something up here. Yes, we do need logic. Logic suggests that if one asks God if the Book of Mormon is true, there can be several different answers.

There can be no answer due to a lack of real intent by the seeker.
There will be no answer due to the reason the seeker doesn't want to put forth any effort to find out.
Satan can appear as a personge of light and tell one it is wrong, or not true. Then the seeker assumes they got an answer from on high. And they logically accept it.

But the best one is while one is in the mode of prayer they get a burning, pleasant, sweet and powerful feeling in their bosom and a definitive yes in their mind that the Book of Mormon is true, then all else doesn't matter because the truth is not just received by one's brain, but is received by the transmission of truth and light from the Spirit of God to the spirit of the seeker. That's when logic goes out the window, because the seeker knows beyond logic that what was revealed is true.
Yes you are so right. Logic is often thrown to the side in the face of intense feeling. I'm sure thats exactly what happened to David when he saw Bathsheba sunbathing on the roof. Logic said, "God's word says don't touch"" but the sweet, burning, powerful feelings said "Go for it" Feelings are great intense and very real, but there reliability as measurements of God's truth is shaky. That's why God gave us logic so that if our feelings tell us one thing and it doesn't match the measuring stick we have to ask ourselves which is our master, our feelings or the law. If I am beating my wife because I am tired when i come home from work and she makes me mad by looking at me wrong i can justify my strong feelings of rage by telling myself she should know better and she is doing this on purpose and she needs to be taught a lesson. However, if I match my actions up against a measuring stick of God's law, logical application of the law of contradiction will tell me I cannot hold the correctness of God's law and the correctness o fmy actions together in my brain, one of the two viewpoints has to go. Whichever one goes tells you what your tre measuring stick is, either your feelings or god's law. That's the way logic works.


When Joseph Smith set out to ask God about why there were so many different churches and messages, he had no idea of what was going to be revealed to him. Yet he asked with faith and real intent, which goes way beyond logic, in order to find out what he sought for. Come on, just how much logic can a fourteen year old boy possess?

Once he knelt down and began to ask, he was overpowered by Satan...because Satan didn't want young Joseph to know the truth. But soon after, that aweful feeling was replaced with a sweet spirit as God the Father and Jesus Christ descended and stood in mid air above young Joseph.

Now, Scitor, do you suppose that logically speaking, young Joseph would have willingly subjected himself to ridicule, tar and feathering, imprisonment, being spit upon and then ultimately slain by bullets ripping through his flesh...for a LIE...that he had actually seen God? I know of no one.

Jesus Christ went through the same thing when he declared He is the Son of God. He was taken and crucified for blasphemy. His accusers used logic only to hold to their belief, instead of praying about it and getting the truth. So you see, logic goes only so far, then one has to seek truth, with real intent and full purpose of heart.

Who needs logic when they can have truth and fact?

Truth is not always found in the philosophies of men.

True faith is not run on logic as evidenced here.
2 Nephi 9:28
O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

This is why we believe in the Book of Mormon as the word of God, because it reveals much, much more truth for our understanding as to how the Philosophies of men work.

OK, this was great and really helps me to understand how God occurs to you.

I would say that for any religious experience, (which involves human feelings, the sweet burning sensations you are speaking of)
these are powerful but can come from a number of sources. Therefore we are told to test the spirits to see if their gospel is different from the done given in the Old and New Testaments, the group of documents. This testing requires a new heart given to us by God and a renewed mind to be able to do this testing and proving which involves searching the Word. The word is Christ and he is in our hearts and in the teachings of his gospel. The two should match up in our renewed mind. Logically add up. Like I said god created the world so that the waters were not the land, they were different. The sky was not the sea and the day was separated from the night. He created the very substance of the world so that we are always making distinctions between things from the time we are babies and we begin to separate out our mother from ourselves. And as we grow older we begin to be able to separate out concepts , love is not contempt. If someone says they love you but they are treating you with contempt, then they are wrong, no matter what they say and no matter how they "feel" about you.They don't understand what love is. Logic tells us that is so. Being able to make logical distinctions helps us to navigate a very complex world and helps us to better understand the world Christ would have us enter. That's why God gave us the ability to make distinctions, because it would help us to see the truth through the maze of lies that is in this world. Face it if people only went by the lovely powerful feelings they got about things, they would be up on the roof of the palace beckoning Bathsheba over for drinks and thinking it was a message from God. That's why he gave the jews the law, not as a tool of salvation, but as a measuring stick to see just how far away from it they were. But being human, they just twisted the measuring stick to fit what they were doing. Without the saving gift of faith we cannot gain salvation by works, we will just change the definition of works until it suits us, that was proven by the whole Old Testament.

Human feelings are not trustworthy, they must be tested by some kind of measuring stick that does not change or move. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart Yes, the word of God is Christ
but it says the word of God is living and active. and why did God tell the jews to remember allhis words, to keep them intheir hearts and write them on their foreheads.Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. (Deut. 11:18) Why did he tell the Jews it was so important to remember all the words, why didn't he say, you know, all this will be screwed up by corrupted writers so just always go with only the prophets. Oh, yes, I know, because always from the beginning there were false prophets and so we have to have a way to test those out, that way is the words of God. But we have to first trust that in making his book, he will have the power to also protect those words.

[scitor]

hi. just an aside here, off the topic
I didn't know this, interesting...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... -22.0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kathyn]

Scitor, you still refuse to take the challenge....read the Book of Mormon....I think you don't dare to read it with an open mind and heart, to pray about it. It is an amazing book. There are many different writing patterns...which is logical, since there were the writings of various prophets, at various times. Read it; pray about it and most of all, be totally honest in your search. Keep in mind that the young man, Joseph Smith was in his early twenties and had very little education at the time. He was able to translate the entire Book of Mormon in a few short months. Have you ever tried to write a book? It's very difficult and tedious. He never once went back and reread what he'd dictated the day or the week before, yet he was able to keep all of the various prophets and people straight...with no mistakes. How is that possible? The book was inspired. I believe that it was only possible through the help of the Holy Ghost and the "interpreters' which the Lord provided.

But until you actually read the Book of Mormon and put it to the test, you'll never know for sure and all you are doing is baiting LDS people and showing us how logical and clever you are. Sorry, but you don't seem to be a sincere seeker of truth. I challenge you to read the entire Book of Mormon, study it, pray about it and then come back and continue your discussion. Otherwise, I doubt your sincerity.

[keeprunning]

Oh, that's crazy about Lennon. Too bad his occultist wife kept him so controlled, he could have done much good. It's so sad how upset they get when they hear Christians say that Christ is the only way.

So, about the 3 levels, I believe it is mostly found in the Doctrine and Covenants. (y'all, is it section 76?) You know, pretty much all 4 works (bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP) are treated equally as scripture for us. We even have quads where you can buy them all in one book, and we study them all equally in church.

I was reading a very interesting presentation that likens the 3 levels to our life here on earth. You might enjoy the insight. http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Trans ... derson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[freedomforall]

Let's clear something up here. Yes, we do need logic. Logic suggests that if one asks God if the Book of Mormon is true, there can be several different answers.

There can be no answer due to a lack of real intent by the seeker.
There will be no answer due to the reason the seeker doesn't want to put forth any effort to find out.
Satan can appear as a personge of light and tell one it is wrong, or not true. Then the seeker assumes they got an answer from on high. And they logically accept it.

But the best one is while one is in the mode of prayer they get a burning, pleasant, sweet and powerful feeling in their bosom and a definitive yes in their mind that the Book of Mormon is true, then all else doesn't matter because the truth is not just received by one's brain, but is received by the transmission of truth and light from the Spirit of God to the spirit of the seeker. That's when logic goes out the window, because the seeker knows beyond logic that what was revealed is true.
Yes you are so right. Logic is often thrown to the side in the face of intense feeling. I'm sure thats exactly what happened to David when he saw Bathsheba sunbathing on the roof. Logic said, "God's word says don't touch"" but the sweet, burning, powerful feelings said "Go for it" Feelings are great intense and very real, but there reliability as measurements of God's truth is shaky. That's why God gave us logic so that if our feelings tell us one thing and it doesn't match the measuring stick we have to ask ourselves which is our master, our feelings or the law. If I am beating my wife because I am tired when i come home from work and she makes me mad by looking at me wrong i can justify my strong feelings of rage by telling myself she should know better and she is doing this on purpose and she needs to be taught a lesson. However, if I match my actions up against a measuring stick of God's law, logical application of the law of contradiction will tell me I cannot hold the correctness of God's law and the correctness o fmy actions together in my brain, one of the two viewpoints has to go. Whichever one goes tells you what your tre measuring stick is, either your feelings or god's law. That's the way logic works.


When Joseph Smith set out to ask God about why there were so many different churches and messages, he had no idea of what was going to be revealed to him. Yet he asked with faith and real intent, which goes way beyond logic, in order to find out what he sought for. Come on, just how much logic can a fourteen year old boy possess?

Once he knelt down and began to ask, he was overpowered by Satan...because Satan didn't want young Joseph to know the truth. But soon after, that aweful feeling was replaced with a sweet spirit as God the Father and Jesus Christ descended and stood in mid air above young Joseph.

Now, Scitor, do you suppose that logically speaking, young Joseph would have willingly subjected himself to ridicule, tar and feathering, imprisonment, being spit upon and then ultimately slain by bullets ripping through his flesh...for a LIE...that he had actually seen God? I know of no one.

Jesus Christ went through the same thing when he declared He is the Son of God. He was taken and crucified for blasphemy. His accusers used logic only to hold to their belief, instead of praying about it and getting the truth. So you see, logic goes only so far, then one has to seek truth, with real intent and full purpose of heart.

Who needs logic when they can have truth and fact?

Truth is not always found in the philosophies of men.

True faith is not run on logic as evidenced here.
2 Nephi 9:28
O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

This is why we believe in the Book of Mormon as the word of God, because it reveals much, much more truth for our understanding as to how the Philosophies of men work.

OK, this was great and really helps me to understand how God occurs to you.

I would say that for any religious experience, (which involves human feelings, the sweet burning sensations you are speaking of)
these are powerful but can come from a number of sources (read 1 Cor 2:14, it is the Spirit that teaches us...which is the sweet burning referred to). Therefore we are told to test the spirits to see if their gospel is different from the done given in the Old and New Testaments, the group of documents. This testing requires a new heart given (not given to an unrepentent soul) to us by God and a renewed mind to be able to do this testing and proving which involves searching the Word (and prayer). The word is Christ and he is in our hearts (it is the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:38) and in the teachings of his gospel. The two should match up in our renewed mind. Logically add up. Like I said god created the world so that the waters were not the land, they were different. The sky was not the sea and the day was separated from the night. He created the very substance of the world so that we are always making distinctions between things from the time we are babies and we begin to separate out our mother from ourselves. And as we grow older we begin to be able to separate out concepts , love is not contempt. If someone says they love you but they are treating you with contempt, then they are wrong, no matter what they say and no matter how they "feel" about you.They don't understand what love is. Logic tells us that is so. Being able to make logical distinctions helps us to navigate a very complex world and helps us to better understand the world Christ would have us enter. That's why God gave us the ability to make distinctions, because it would help us to see the truth through the maze of lies that is in this world. Face it if people only went by the lovely powerful feelings they got about things, they would be up on the roof of the palace beckoning Bathsheba over for drinks and thinking it was a message from God (I am saddened that you would compare lust to the sweet sensation that can only come from the Holy Ghost as He bears truth to us). That's why he gave the jews the law, not as a tool of salvation, but as a measuring stick to see just how far away from it they were. But being human, they just twisted the measuring stick to fit what they were doing. Without the saving gift of faith we cannot gain salvation by works, we will just change the definition of works until it suits us, that was proven by the whole Old Testament.

Human feelings are not trustworthy (TRUE, that is why 1 Cor 2:14 is so essential), they must be tested by some kind of measuring stick that does not change or move, (ya, it's called the Holy Ghost whispering to us with a still small voice 1 Kings 19:12). For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart Yes, the word of God is Christ
but it says the word of God is living and active. and why did God tell the jews to remember allhis words, to keep them intheir hearts and write them on their foreheads.Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. (Deut. 11:18) Why did he tell the Jews it was so important to remember all the words, why didn't he say, you know, all this will be screwed up by corrupted writers so just always go with only the prophets. Oh, yes, I know, because always from the beginning there were false prophets and so we have to have a way to test those out, that way is the words of God. But we have to first trust that in making his book, he will have the power to also protect those words.

By reading this scripture was Peter able to discern who Christ is by using logic?
Matt 16:15-17
He (Christ) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Isn't it logical that when someone wants to know truth (testing the word of God) that one would ask its author for confirmation? Remember, God's truth is spiritually discerned, not deduced by logic.

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Which requires us to have the gift of the Holy Ghost, who bears all truth by His still small voice.

[freedomforall]

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Isn't it logical to do this?

Prov 3:5,6
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...this goes beyond logic.
lean not unto thine own understanding...our logic doesn't mean squat.
In all thy ways acknowledge him...through prayer and in daily activities in order to live righteously.
he shall direct thy paths...our logic might betray us and send us down the wrong path, but by the Holy Ghost, through prayer, we can stay on the narrow path that leads to eternal life.

[[email protected]]

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...this goes beyond logic.
lean not unto thine own understanding...our logic doesn't mean squat.
In all thy ways acknowledge him...through prayer and in daily activities in order to live righteously.
he shall direct thy paths...our logic might betray us and send us down the wrong path, but by the Holy Ghost, through prayer, we can stay on the narrow path that leads to eternal life."

Excellent!

[freedomforall]

Scitor, what do you know about chiasmus in the bible? Did you know there are chiasmus in the Book of Mormon as well?

Here is perhaps the best one of all. Is it, logically speaking of course, that a man with only a meager education couldn't possibly conjur up such a beautiful chiasm?

So here it is, Welch's outline of the overall structure of Alma 36. (Again, this is only scratching the surface of the rich structure in this chapter, but what a scratch!) Only the key phrases and concepts (sometimes paraphrased) are shown, with the verse number. The entire text of Alma 36 is also available.

(a) My son, give ear to my WORDS (1)
.(b) KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God and ye shall PROSPER IN THE LAND (1)
..(c) DO AS I HAVE DONE (2)
...(d) in REMEMBERING THE CAPTIVITY of our fathers (2);
....(e) for they were in BONDAGE (2)
.....(f) he surely did DELIVER them (2)
......(g) TRUST in God (3)
.......(h) supported in their TRIALS, and TROUBLES, and AFFLICTIONS (3)
........(i) shall be lifted up at the LAST DAY (3)
.........(j) I KNOW this not of myself but of GOD (4)
..........(k) BORN OF GOD (5)
...........(l) I sought to destroy the church of God (6-9)
............(m) MY LIMBS were paralyzed (10)
.............(n) Fear of being in the PRESENCE OF GOD (14-15)
..............(o) PAINS of a damned soul (16)
...............(p) HARROWED UP BY THE MEMORY OF SINS (17)
................(q) I remembered JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD (17)
................(q') I cried, JESUS, SON OF GOD (18)
...............(p') HARROWED UP BY THE MEMORY OF SINS no more (19)
..............(o') Joy as exceeding as was the PAIN (20)
.............(n') Long to be in the PRESENCE OF GOD (22)
............(m') My LIMBS received their strength again (23)
...........(l') I labored to bring souls to repentance (24)
..........(k') BORN OF GOD (26)
.........(j') Therefore MY KNOWLEDGE IS OF GOD (26)
........(h') Supported under TRIALS, TROUBLES, and AFFLICTIONS (27)
.......(g') TRUST in him (27)
......(f') He will deliver me (27)
.....(i') and RAISE ME UP AT THE LAST DAY (28)
....(e') As God brought our fathers out of BONDAGE and captivity (28-29)
...(d') Retain in REMEMBRANCE THEIR CAPTIVITY (28-29)
..(c') KNOW AS I DO KNOW (30)
.(b') KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS and ye shall PROSPER IN THE LAND (30)
(a') This is according to his WORD (30).

Here is chapter 36 of Alma
Alma Chapter 36
1 My son, give ear to my words; for I swear unto you, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land.
2 I would that ye should do as I have done, in remembering the captivity of our fathers; for they were in bondage, and none could deliver them except it was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and he surely did deliver them in their afflictions.
3 And now, O my son Helaman, behold, thou art in thy youth, and therefore, I beseech of thee that thou wilt hear my words and learn of me; for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.
4 And I would not that ye think that I know of myself--not of the temporal but of the spiritual, not of the carnal mind but of God.
5 Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been born of God I should not have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy angel, made these things known unto me, not of any worthiness of myself.
6 For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.
7 And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did tremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the fear of the Lord came upon us.
8 But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.
9 And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.
10 And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of three days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.
11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words--If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God--I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.
12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.
14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.
15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.
16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.
17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.
19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.
20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!
21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.
22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.
23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.
24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
25 Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;
26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.
27 And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has delivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still deliver me.
28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.
29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of bondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.
30 But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence. Now this is according to his word.

[freedomforall]

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...this goes beyond logic.
lean not unto thine own understanding...our logic doesn't mean squat.
In all thy ways acknowledge him...through prayer and in daily activities in order to live righteously.
he shall direct thy paths...our logic might betray us and send us down the wrong path, but by the Holy Ghost, through prayer, we can stay on the narrow path that leads to eternal life."

Excellent!

Again, thank you.

[scitor]

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Isn't it logical to do this?

Prov 3:5,6
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...this goes beyond logic.
lean not unto thine own understanding...our logic doesn't mean squat.
In all thy ways acknowledge him...through prayer and in daily activities in order to live righteously.
he shall direct thy paths...our logic might betray us and send us down the wrong path, but by the Holy Ghost, through prayer, we can stay on the narrow path that leads to eternal life.

I agree you cannot lean into your own understanding or trust your own logic. That's why I keep asking for a measuring stick against which you test this logic. So we know that the bible is not suitable and we went over the reasons why. So now we are going to check out the book of Mormon. I know several of you want me to read this because it will explain your beliefs. However, it won't explain the three levels of heaven belief. OK. How about the belief that you have that says Christians will become Gods after their resurrection? Is that in there?
I have been talking with you and you have been arguing for these things and telling me that I should just read the book of Mormon and it will all make sense. But I can't find these in the book of Mormon, so how exactly is reading it going to help me to understand these things you have been telling me are scriptural truths?

[scitor]

freedom fighter
By reading this scripture was Peter able to discern who Christ is by using logic?
Matt 16:15-17
He (Christ) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Isn't it logical that when someone wants to know truth (testing the word of God) that one would ask its author for confirmation? Remember, God's truth is spiritually discerned, not deduced by logic. Yes, but the difference between us is that I think that in reading the bible I AM asking the author. Don't you think that when you read the book of Mormon?

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Which requires us to have the gift of the Holy Ghost, who bears all truth by His still small voice. Yes, and he tells you the truth about the words in the bible, helps you t see the truth in words that previously made no sense

[LukeAir2008]

freedom fighter
By reading this scripture was Peter able to discern who Christ is by using logic?
Matt 16:15-17
He (Christ) saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Isn't it logical that when someone wants to know truth (testing the word of God) that one would ask its author for confirmation? Remember, God's truth is spiritually discerned, not deduced by logic. Yes, but the difference between us is that I think that in reading the bible I AM asking the author. Don't you think that when you read the book of Mormon?

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Which requires us to have the gift of the Holy Ghost, who bears all truth by His still small voice. Yes, and he tells you the truth about the words in the bible, helps you t see the truth in words that previously made no sense

But Scitor youre putting all your trust in the words of long dead prophets and apostles while rejecting the words of the living.

Paul did exactly the same thing and ended up persecuting and fighting against Christ and his Saints. The Old Testament did not lead Paul to the true Christ. It wasnt until he heard the voice of Christ and was lead to the living anointed servants of Christ that he understood the words of long dead Prophets. You are making the same mistake.

It is the living witnesses of Christ that we must seek. I notice you didn't really respond to my comments earlier of how much of the words of Christ and His servants that we DONT HAVE.

Peter, James, John, Paul, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Matthias, Paul, Bartholomew etc. were living witnesses. There are living witnesses today but you reject those. How sad will be you legacy when you realise your great error.

[scitor]

Lukeair But Scitor youre putting all your trust in the words of long dead prophets and apostles while rejecting the words of the living.

Paul did exactly the same thing and ended up persecuting and fighting against Christ and his Saints. The Old Testament did not lead Paul to the true Christ. It wasnt until he heard the voice of Christ and was lead to the living anointed servants of Christ that he understood the words of long dead Prophets. You are making the same mistake.

It is the living witnesses of Christ that we must seek. I notice you didn't really respond to my comments earlier of how much of the words of Christ and His servants that we DONT HAVE.

Peter, James, John, Paul, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Matthias, Paul, Bartholomew etc. were living witnesses. There are living witnesses today but you reject those. How sad will be you legacy when you realise your great error.

No it wasn't the old testamnet that saved Paul, or convinced him. But it was the old testament that both Christ and Paul used to support the claims they both made about who was the son of God. They didn't just say, "Hey, just forget those old books, they said that the prophecies in the old testament were proof jof Christs identity.

Also Christ said in John 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. He is saying if his "words" remain in his disciples. The words he left them from his time with them, the words he spoke to them. The words those men wrote down and left for us.
I am still unclear as to what you all use for your measuring stick for truth. The things you have taught me about becomong gods and three levels of heaven don't actually appear in the book of Mormon so i guess you don't use that either. Is it just the say of the current prophets that tell you what is true?