an inquiring non-member

[7cylon7]

and on and on and on and on.

[LukeAir2008]

Scitor, I can understand your reverance and total reliance on the Bible (Old and New Testaments) because in reality for you the Church of Jesus Christ had ended by 100AD. You're right. The Apostles were all killed - everyone apart from John who was taken by God. So then there was nobody to direct the Church and no-one to receive any more revelation. Christianity was eventually adopted by the Roman Empire as the official religion and you ended up with a sun worshipping Emperor Constantine in charge of the Church.

Thats why Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria collected his favorite books and created the New Testament because he knew that was it - no more Apostles and Prophets - no more inspired men to guide the Church - no more revelation.

Remember the writings you choose to revere are the words of men - spoken, written, recorded - but they came from the mouths and fingers of men - living breathing men who had been called and ordained of God to be Apostles - special witnesses of Christ in all the world. Some of the writings such as the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts etc. were not written by Apostles but just members of the Church who recorded and compiled Church history and events.

There are many Apostles that you have no record of what they said or did. The Twelve original Apostles were Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Simon, Judas and Judas Iscariot. (Luke 6:13-16)

So you have no record in the NT of anything said by Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James, Simon, and the two called Judas. Now we can discount the writings of Judas Iscariot because he apostasized from the Church but we can then bring in his replacement Matthias (Acts 1:22) who was called to the Council of Twelve to replace Iscariot.

So thats eight living, breathing, authorized special witnesses of Christ that you have no record of anything they said or did. You may have no interest in what they said or did but you cant deny that they existed and would have spoken, taught and minstered to the Church.

There are other books in existence which were possibly written by these men but they are not in the NT because a Catholic Bishop didn't want them in the NT. The Gospels of Thomas and Philip for example.

The Apostle John, in his gospel, said that if we had all the words of Christ and all the records of everything that he did it would fill hundreds of volumes.

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25)

So the Lord himself did and said many other things which John obviously knew about which we have no record of.

So, Scitor, can you still say that the Bible contains all of the inspired word of God that has ever been revealed or spoken? Does the Bible contain everything that Christ and the Apostles said, did and taught? (PS..John has already given you the answer...John 21:25...sorry )

[LukeAir2008]

[freedomforall]

from freedom fighter
Ezekiel 37:19
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand

.Ezekiel was giving a future prophecy about the tribes of Israel, soonto be scattered after babylon throughout the nations, being united in the future under the rule of "david" or Christ. I am not really sure how you can use this as a measuring stick, its a prophecy for the future about the Jews being united in their own country. How is that a measuring stick?

2 Pet. 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ok, but you must tell me which scriptures and how you think I have distorted them.

Please don't miscontrue what I said. I wasn't talking about you at all, rather, I was showing you how we believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I have told you that many plain and precious parts have been removed from the bible by evil men. I told you that we have the Book of Mormon, also written by ancient prophets that contains an increase of information about the Savior, and contains plain and precious truths.
I told you that the bible is the stick of Judah, containing the new and old testiments; the Book of Mormon comes through the stick of Joseph due to the fact that, Lehi, a prophet in Jerusalem was told by God to leave Jerusalem prior to its destruction. An account of 600 years of events were recorded in the book of mormon's pages. The records were put into the ground by Moroni, a prophet and then recovered by Joseph Smith and translated into english by the use of the Urim and Thummim which was with the plates.

I'm sure there is someone on this site that can explain more fully how the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.

[linj2fly]

Yes, Scitor, Ezekial 37 IS about the reunification of the tribes of Israel (what we call the gathering/restoration of the house of Israel). The 'sticks' referred to in v. 16 through 20 are about records...books. We believe that these records, the stick written upon for judah and the stick written upon for joseph, are an important 'mechanism/tool', if you will, to bring about the restoration of the house of israel. We believe these two sticks are the bible and the book of mormon. And yes, the house of Israel will be ruled by the king of kings, Christ.

Do you agree that since verse 16 uses the word 'stick' and 'write' that it is referring to recording something? What do we call the writings of prophets (like Ezekiel)...scripture. Why would that be important in the context of restoring Israel? And if the Bible is the only record needed to restore Israel, why does it make mention of Joseph and his stick? And where is that record? What is it? Obviously the Lord is leading his other sheep by way of prophets and they are recording something...and the Lord intends to bring the two records together eventually to assist in the restoration of Israel.

[7cylon7]

Scitor, I can understand your reverance and total reliance on the Bible (Old and New Testaments) because in reality for you the Church of Jesus Christ had ended by 100AD. You're right. The Apostles were all killed - everyone apart from John who was taken by God. So then there was nobody to direct the Church and no-one to receive any more revelation. Christianity was eventually adopted by the Roman Empire as the official religion and you ended up with a sun worshipping Emperor Constantine in charge of the Church.

Thats why Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria collected his favorite books and created the New Testament because he knew that was it - no more Apostles and Prophets - no more inspired men to guide the Church - no more revelation.

Remember the writings you choose to revere are the words of men - spoken, written, recorded - but they came from the mouths and fingers of men - living breathing men who had been called and ordained of God to be Apostles - special witnesses of Christ in all the world. Some of the writings such as the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts etc. were not written by Apostles but just members of the Church who recorded and compiled Church history and events.

There are many Apostles that you have no record of what they said or did. The Twelve original Apostles were Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Simon, Judas and Judas Iscariot. (Luke 6:13-16)

So you have no record in the NT of anything said by Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James, Simon, and the two called Judas. Now we can discount the writings of Judas Iscariot because he apostasized from the Church but we can then bring in his replacement Matthias (Acts 1:22) who was called to the Council of Twelve to replace Iscariot.

So thats eight living, breathing, authorized special witnesses of Christ that you have no record of anything they said or did. You may have no interest in what they said or did but you cant deny that they existed and would have spoken, taught and minstered to the Church.

There are other books in existence which were possibly written by these men but they are not in the NT because a Catholic Bishop didn't want them in the NT. The Gospels of Thomas and Philip for example.

The Apostle John, in his gospel, said that if we had all the words of Christ and all the records of everything that he did it would fill hundreds of volumes.

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25)

So the Lord himself did and said many other things which John obviously knew about which we have no record of.

So, Scitor, can you still say that the Bible contains all of the inspired word of God that has ever been revealed or spoken? Does the Bible contain everything that Christ and the Apostles said, did and taught? (PS..John has already given you the answer...John 21:25...sorry )

WOW well said LukeAir that is what I meant to say.

[pjbrownie]

The Christian/Mormon conundrum lies squarely with the comprehension of Biblical inerrancy. Mormons don't believe in Biblical inerrancy because we cannot guarantee the lack of tampering, mostly with the structure of the binding (ie which books to put in or leave out). The Dead Sea Scrolls have helped establish the accuracy of some books like Isaiah and other Old Testament tomes, but it's not been comprehensive. It's the New Testament structure we put very little faith in--it has too much room for error in it's compilation. There is just too much room for human error--unless God controlled the process from Babylonian scribe to Medieval monk--possible but doubtful. The Catholic Church circa 400-1200 AD was not good--just study Pope Gregory and Justinian--you sense that Daniel's little horn describes the Catholic Church to a tee here. To me, having more scripture and current prophets help to establish the veracity of the Bible, help to qualify and clarify texts that could be misinterpreted or corrupted. To us there was a falling away as predicted by Paul, and a refreshing of times, as predicted by Peter. Any faith that drew from the dirty Catholic well would be suspect. God needed to directly reset His truth in the Earth.

This, in essence, is why arguing exclusively with the Bible, gets a Christian nowhere with Mormons. It's a difficult proposition--the only recourse is to establish whether or not the new stuff is truth. There are many methods, but all must be qualified by the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ.

[Rand]

from freedom fighter
Ezekiel 37:19
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand

.Ezekiel was giving a future prophecy about the tribes of Israel, soonto be scattered after babylon throughout the nations, being united in the future under the rule of "david" or Christ. I am not really sure how you can use this as a measuring stick, its a prophecy for the future about the Jews being united in their own country. How is that a measuring stick?

2 Pet. 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ok, but you must tell me which scriptures and how you think I have distorted them.

How about the one just above from Ezekiel 37:19. You can give your personal understanding for every scripture we can give to you, that will vary from the revealed truth through living prophets, as well as our logically presented meaning. You think your interpretation is not a distortion. If it varies with the prophets, it is a distortion. It is a game with no meaning. Just like a bunch of guys sitting around in a barbershop talking about baseball, but have never played the game. They feel free to interpret, criticize and instruct the professionals on how to play the game. So it is when we give our personal understanding of the scriptures.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. It can only be properly interpreted in the same way it was given; prophecy. If one uses the gift of prophecy to interpret scripture, he got it from God, and can only do so if he is a prophet. And if he is a prophet with the gift of prophecy, he has the right to proclaim new truth from God. So the greatest question you can ask at this point is, "Is there a living prophet, or do I continue to move ahead on my own efforts, which are works, but that is another post.

[scitor]

from freedom fighter
Ezekiel 37:19
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand

.Ezekiel was giving a future prophecy about the tribes of Israel, soonto be scattered after babylon throughout the nations, being united in the future under the rule of "david" or Christ. I am not really sure how you can use this as a measuring stick, its a prophecy for the future about the Jews being united in their own country. How is that a measuring stick?

2 Pet. 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ok, but you must tell me which scriptures and how you think I have distorted them.

How about the one just above from Ezekiel 37:19. You can give your personal understanding for every scripture we can give to you, that will vary from the revealed truth through living prophets, as well as our logically presented meaning. You think your interpretation is not a distortion. If it varies with the prophets, it is a distortion. It is a game with no meaning. Just like a bunch of guys sitting around in a barbershop talking about baseball, but have never played the game. They feel free to interpret, criticize and instruct the professionals on how to play the game. So it is when we give our personal understanding of the scriptures.

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. It can only be properly interpreted in the same way it was given; prophecy. If one uses the gift of prophecy to interpret scripture, he got it from God, and can only do so if he is a prophet. And if he is a prophet with the gift of prophecy, he has the right to proclaim new truth from God. So the greatest question you can ask at this point is, "Is there a living prophet, or do I continue to move ahead on my own efforts, which are works, but that is another post.

You are right it is important to try and understand what was meant by the prophecy, lets look at what it says
verses 19-29 :
the stick of Joseph are all the tribes associated with Ephraim in other words the tribes of the north, what had become Israel after the kingdoms split. They were called among other things, Ephraim, because jeroboam camped in the hill country of Ephraim during the beginning.split
The stick of Judah are those associated with the tribe of Judah, those who became the southern kingdom. You can read about it in 1 kings 12.
So God is talking about the divided kingdom. He then further elucidates this when he says:
I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms
After the Babylonian captivity the tribes were scattered all over the various countries and later on all over the world. God is saying he will bring them back together as one nation in Israel.
Since Ezekiel is the prophet, we know this prophecy was given during the Babylonian captivity. And he is presumably talking about something that will happen after the captivity is over. He says he will unite the tribes in Israel, not another country.
Since David was already dead and other times when references are made to David God is referring to Christ, He is probably doing so now. Also he says they will all have "one shepherd" and other places in the bible referring to a singular shepherd is talking about Christ. This coupled with the fact he refers to a "new covenant", which happened after the death of Christ, gives this interpretation of David as Christ more weight. Also it says just one shepherd not several.
So I would like you to explain how the Mormon interpretation of these passages is more plausible than this one. Seeing as your own understanding is also an "interpretation".
Also the helper, or paraclete that God left to lead people was the Holy Spirit. THe bible is clear on this and I have posted the scriptures and also in 1 John it says "you do not need a teacher, you already know" 1 john 2:27 and But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 john 2:20 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26
Therefore we are not on our own.

Ezekiel 37
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18 “When your countrymen ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

[linj2fly]

Something to consider, scitor...

Stick, Tree or Writing Tablet?

In Hebrew, "Etz" is singular (i.e. stick or tree). "Etzeem" is plural (i.e. sticks or trees).
Hebrew to English definition of "Stick" or "Tree"

עץ (‛êts) - Ref. Strong's Concordance #: H6086
Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew Lexicon (BDB) definitions for H6086:
1) tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows
1a) tree, trees
1b) wood, pieces of wood, gallows, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax

The nation of Israel was figuratively called an Olive Tree (etz) [Hosea 14:6, Jeremiah 11:16-17]. Ephraim (Joseph) was even called a wild olive branch (sometimes a Wild @#$) Hosea 8:9, while Judah was considered the "natural" branch Romans 11.

In translating the New English Bible, scholars examined the aramaic targum of Ezekiel which translates the original Hebrew etz into the Aramaic word luha', meaning a tablet or writing board.[1] Combined with more recent archaeological evidence of Babylonian writing tablets, the editors of the NEB concluded that the "etz" being described here was a wooden plank filled with wax used for writing. The NEB translation is:

“These were the words of the Lord to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, ‘Judah and his associates of Israel.’ Then take another leaf and write on it, ‘Joseph, the leaf of Ephraim and all of his associates of Israel.’ Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand.”

LDS usage

To members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Stick of Joseph is a reference to the Book of Mormon, taken from a passage in the King James Version of the Bible, Ezekiel 37:16-19. In this passage, the term "stick", refers to a scroll (or book), and, in particular, the "stick of Joseph" is believed to refer to the Book of Mormon, while the "stick of Judah" is believed to refer to the Bible.[2]

The LDS Church views this passage as a prophecy of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, which tells of the prophet Lehi and his family, who, according to the text, are descendants of the biblical Joseph, son of Jacob. The Book of Mormon and the Bible, a record of the Jews (that is, the tribe of Judah), are viewed as scripture by adherents of Mormonism. The two books together are seen as fulfilling the prophecy, becoming "one stick".

The traditional and LDS interpretations of this passage are not seen as contradictory by members of the LDS Church. LDS theology emphasizes that the publishing of The Book of Mormon is a sign that the gathering of Israel has commenced, and the book is considered to be an important mechanism of that gathering.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_of_Joseph

The bible is a history/record of the Judah and his associates. The book of Mormon is a history/record of Joseph and his associates (Lehi, of Mannasseh; Ishmael, of Ephraim). Prophets make records. The purpose of the Book of Mormon according to Mormon himself is thus...

Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

The record was given to Joseph Smith (a descendant of Ephraim) to translate, thus the phrase, "the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim."

The Book of Mormon was brought for by God to be a companion to the bible (becoming 'one stick) in the convincing of both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. This is essential to the gathering of Israel.

2 Nephi 29
1. But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;

2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;

3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the blost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Won't it be great when we have ALL the scriptures that God has caused to be written? I'm grateful for what we have now, but I do look forward to more. God HAS been merciful to his children. These records are a testament to that.

[linj2fly]

God initially SAVES us or RESCUES us from our fallen state by grace and faith alone and not works. I think this is Paul's way of saying OUR MERCIFUL GOD MAKES THE FIRST MOVE. ("I Stand at the door and knock")

However, after we have been JUSTIFIED, and the Holy Ghost can dwell with us imperfect beings through Christ's MERITS and Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS after we have accepted Christ as our Savior.

Then comes the process of SANCTIFICATION. As we RECEIVE the Holy Ghost more perfectly and RECEIVE and APPLY the GRACE God has already given us. Then God will add, GRACE FOR GRACE, Line Upon LINE until the HOLY GHOST has completely purified us, overcome our flesh, and has caused a change in us such that we have lost any and all desire for SIN. This may take all of the MILLENNIUM to complete. MUCH SANCTIFICATION occurs early on at the time we are BORN AGAIN. BUT MUCH SANCTIFICATION is promised to take place afterwards as we CONSECRATE our lives to God.

Now, while JUSTIFICATION is by FAITH and GRACE and not WORKS, SANCTIFICATION requires both FAITH, GRACE, and many WORKS.

Remember the rich young man? Master what must I do to gain eternal Life? ..... What lack I yet? If thou wilt be PERFECT Sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, and come and follow me.

THEREFORE HERE WE SEE THE COVENANT of (what LDS call) CONSECRATION which PROMISES SANCTIFICATION. AND CONSECRATING YOURSELF TO CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT WORKS.

And the Covenant of Consecration is what the LDS doctrine is focused on. LDS is a Sanctification focused doctrine and not just a Justification doctrine. This is the whole meaning of what is done in the LDS temple. Sanctification for Consecration is the Higher Covenant of the LDS Temple and the meaning behind the ritual....... "HOLINESS TO THE LORD"..... Why we are called SAINTS or SANCTS........ etc.

LDS are not about meeting God half-way or even part-way. LDS know we can do no good works without the GRACE of Christ. When LDS talk about "trying a little harder to be a little better" we are talking about SANCTIFICATION and receiving and applying that GRACE God has already given us so that God can add more.

Some Christians misunderstand LDS Doctrine because it is SANCTIFICATION focuses (if thou wilt be perfect) and not just JUSTIFICATION focused.

bumping this post....after reading and gleaning a little more from the thread, I feel this sums up the beginning discussion well.

[Rand]

You are right it is important to try and understand what was meant by the prophecy, lets look at what it says
verses 19-29 :
the stick of Joseph are all the tribes associated with Ephraim in other words the tribes of the north, what had become Israel after the kingdoms split. They were called among other things, Ephraim, because jeroboam camped in the hill country of Ephraim during the beginning.split
The stick of Judah are those associated with the tribe of Judah, those who became the southern kingdom. You can read about it in 1 kings 12.
So God is talking about the divided kingdom. He then further elucidates this when he says:
I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms
After the Babylonian captivity the tribes were scattered all over the various countries and later on all over the world. God is saying he will bring them back together as one nation in Israel.
Since Ezekiel is the prophet, we know this prophecy was given during the Babylonian captivity. And he is presumably talking about something that will happen after the captivity is over. He says he will unite the tribes in Israel, not another country.
Since David was already dead and other times when references are made to David God is referring to Christ, He is probably doing so now. Also he says they will all have "one shepherd" and other places in the bible referring to a singular shepherd is talking about Christ. This coupled with the fact he refers to a "new covenant", which happened after the death of Christ, gives this interpretation of David as Christ more weight. Also it says just one shepherd not several.
So I would like you to explain how the Mormon interpretation of these passages is more plausible than this one. Seeing as your own understanding is also an "interpretation".
Also the helper, or paraclete that God left to lead people was the Holy Spirit. THe bible is clear on this and I have posted the scriptures and also in 1 John it says "you do not need a teacher, you already know" 1 john 2:27 and But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 john 2:20 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26
Therefore we are not on our own.

Ezekiel 37
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Ephraim’s stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18 “When your countrymen ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

Trying to understand is indeed an individual effort and thus a work. It leads, besides that, to subjectivity. Scripture was given by prophets and should be guided by the same in the interpretation, or personal inspiration and revelation. What we should not do is rely on reason, logic, and intellectual deduction.

In your nice explanation, you make several personal assumptions and interpretations. It isn't necessary to explain to me what you think it means. Your explanation makes logical sense. The only problem is, it is wrong, at least insofar as it proves the prophetically proclaimed meaning of the prophecy wrong. Your missing piece is that the spirit must guide the interpretation of scripture, or we have exactly what we have in the world today, thousands of meaning extrapolated from the same verses of scripture. We are to all be brought to a unity of the faith. And how? Be the leadership of Prophets and Apostles.

[scitor]

Concerning all who have written on the Ezekiel 37 stick of Judah passage:

the point is that the bible has its own interpretation given by the mouth of the lord directly after the sticks were spoken of

Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

. God said what that passage meant, that he would unite the divided house of israel in the hills of Israel under David. So if you have another interpretation, it is contrary to the one in the bible, which is fine, however, it indicates you do knot use the bible as your ultimate measuring stick. You already said you don't. This however does not hang with the consistency of divine scripture usage. The new testement had to be supported by the old and any other scripture that came along would not be able to be in contradiction to the Old or New. If it is it stands alone under its own authority and that of its apostles, which is fine too. But it just can't claim to be upheld by the Old and New testaments if it is claiming that they are not reliable as measuring sticks.

[scitor]

2Nephi 29
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

compare with Ezekiel 37:22-23:

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel.

these are two different meanings. You have to choose one. It appears that you have chosen the latter, regardless of the contradiction which means that you must believe in a Doctrine of substitution.
This means that you do not change any verse or cause it to be forgotten unless you substitute for it something better or similar; because you say:
"Do you not know that God has power over all things?When we substitute one verse for another - and God knows best what He reveals - others may say 'you are but a forger"' But you know that God has simply given a new and better thing to be substituted for the old thing.

[Rand]

2Nephi 29
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

compare with Ezekiel 37:22-23:

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel.

these are two different meanings. You have to choose one. It appears that you have chosen the latter, regardless of the contradiction which means that you must believe in a Doctrine of substitution.
This means that you do not change any verse or cause it to be forgotten unless you substitute for it something better or similar; because you say:
"Do you not know that God has power over all things?When we substitute one verse for another - and God knows best what He reveals - others may say 'you are but a forger"' But you know that God has simply given a new and better thing to be substituted for the old thing.

These two interpretations are not exclusive, but inclusive. I choose both. If he brings the people together into one, why not their records of inspired writings. What is the difference?
"As you said, " God knows best what He reveals", I agree. That is why continued revelation is so vital and why a living oracle is so vital to keep clarity in the world of millions of interpretations that you know exists. Once again, that is why you have been repeatedly encouraged to find our for yourself through divine revelation.

[scitor]

Rand
In your nice explanation, you make several personal assumptions and interpretations. It isn't necessary to explain to me what you think it means. Your explanation makes logical sense. The only problem is, it is wrong, at least insofar as it proves the prophetically proclaimed meaning of the prophecy wrong. Your missing piece is that the spirit must guide the interpretation of scripture, or we have exactly what we have in the world today, thousands of meaning extrapolated from the same verses of scripture. We are to all be brought to a unity of the faith. And how? Be the leadership of Prophets and Apostles.

Well, at least you admit it makes logical sense to assume that when Ezikiel asked God what the prophect meant and God said I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. then, that's probably exactly what he meant.

But it seems as though you think the problem is using logic itself as any kind of system for figuring things out. Who do you think gave us logic? What do you think knowledge and understanding use as their framework? Logic is where things add up. Truth always adds up. In God there are no changeable facts or turning of done thing into another.Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change (James 1:17)
God gave us logic to use . He made the laws of this world and they are true. One of these laws is:"You can't say something is and isn't at the same time" this is the second law of logic. Without this law we would never know what anyone was talking about. The first law is" a thing is what it is". Sort of like God telling Abraham his name: "I am that I am" These laws are the basic laws of reality god gave us when he made the world so that we could use them to stay with him. It doesn't mean we don't need the Holy Spirit, and the laws of logic can be used incorrectly. But to say the laws of logic are superceded by the Holy Spirit would be saying that the laws God gave us before he gave us his Spirit were false, no good. That is not true. It may be true to say we didn't understand the implications of his laws, before, but when we are saved, 2+2 will will not start equalling 5. God made logic it is a blessing he gave us not to be misused and not to be ignored.

[linj2fly]

2Nephi 29
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

compare with Ezekiel 37:22-23:

‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel.

these are two different meanings. You have to choose one. It appears that you have chosen the latter, regardless of the contradiction which means that you must believe in a Doctrine of substitution.
This means that you do not change any verse or cause it to be forgotten unless you substitute for it something better or similar; because you say:
"Do you not know that God has power over all things?When we substitute one verse for another - and God knows best what He reveals - others may say 'you are but a forger"' But you know that God has simply given a new and better thing to be substituted for the old thing.

I'm sorry this is your perception of my beliefs. I see no substitution going on in the two scriptures you posted. Both speak of the gathering of israel in a physical way, so how could I be substituting (that would mean that something--like the literal gathering--is excluded from what I believe this scripture means). I believe the sticks refer to actual scriptures. You do not. Perhaps you're view would be better stated that we are 'adding.' I would call this 'enriching,' but this is because I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I believe the Book of Mormon enriches and clarifies the Bible. I'm grateful for both of them.

By your logic, the book of james contradicts the book of ephesians. James says we are saved by faith and works; Paul says we are saved by grace through faith alone. by your logic, one apostle is right and the other is wrong. However, by studying ALL (even in the bible alone) that has been revealed on the matter, we find that the two statements are reconciled. All the other scriptures touching on the matter of salvation enrich and deepen our understanding of the doctrine. We find that the scriptures are complementary rather than contradictory.

Referring again to Ezekiel's passage--As a mormon, I also believe this as scripture:

D&C 27:5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

I believe this scripture is true because the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that it is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet by the witness of the Holy Ghost, after reading the Book of Mormon. The Spirit has verified this to me several times in my life. That promise in James 1:5 is real. It is important to seek with unwavering faith and to not be double-minded as James directs. You have noted earlier in your posts that you are seeking to know about Mormons by dialoguing with us, and also by reading 'a book about joseph smith' and reading sermons in the Journal of Discourses. You have also stated that you are seeking for truth. If you are truly a truth seeker I submit to you that you are drinking downstream. You must go to the source. You will never get a complete and satisfactory answer about these things that we have been discussing, and the ideas you are wrestling with until you read the book of mormon in it's entirety and ask sincerely and honestly if it is true. Either it is or it isn't. If you have not studied the work itself....how can you say that you are seeking truth--especially when there is a chance that God has actually revealed additional scripture...why keep yourself from this potentially divine knowledge? I say 'potentially' from your standpoint. For myself, I know it is true, and I am so grateful that I live in a time when He has brought this forth. I'm grateful for the sacrifices of the many prophets who have lived since the time of Adam, and have diligently kept records of God's dealings among His children. Further, we believe that God has always and will continue to speak to his children personally and through His prophets. This really is the key to understanding our faith.

[scitor]

lin2jfly
I'm sorry this is your perception of my beliefs. I see no substitution going on in the two scriptures you posted. Both speak of the gathering of israel in a physical way, so how could I be substituting (that would mean that something--like the literal gathering--is excluded from what I believe this scripture means). I believe the sticks refer to actual scriptures. You do not. Perhaps you're view would be better stated that we are 'adding.' I would call this 'enriching,' but this is because I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I believe the Book of Mormon enriches and clarifies the Bible. I'm grateful for both of them.

except for the fact that it says he will gather them together "in the hills of israel" and the Mormons have substituted America.

Peter and Paul are not in conflict they are saying exactly the same thing. There can be no righteousness without grace and with the gift of grace faith and righteousness will be evident in works. Paul is explaining the grace part and James the work part.

So in Ezekiel I see the explanation of the "hills of Israel" and the naming of the specific tribes, and the location of the gathering of the nations in Israel, but no explanation of any new place of gathering in America. So you are substituting a gathering of israel in America for the "hills of israel". That is why I say Mormons have a doctrine of substitution, which says that sometimes the old
prophecies must be replaced with others that more succinctly deal with the current situation, if this is so then God will deliver the new revelation and it will abrogate the old one.

[scitor]

linj2fly I believe this scripture is true because the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that it is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet by the witness of the Holy Ghost, after reading the Book of Mormon. The Spirit has verified this to me several times in my life. That promise in James 1:5 is real. It is important to seek with unwavering faith and to not be double-minded as James directs. You have noted earlier in your posts that you are seeking to know about Mormons by dialoguing with us, and also by reading 'a book about joseph smith' and reading sermons in the Journal of Discourses. You have also stated that you are seeking for truth. If you are truly a truth seeker I submit to you that you are drinking downstream. You must go to the source. You will never get a complete and satisfactory answer about these things that we have been discussing, and the ideas you are wrestling with until you read the book of mormon in it's entirety and ask sincerely and honestly if it is true. Either it is or it isn't. If you have not studied the work itself....how can you say that you are seeking truth--especially when there is a chance that God has actually revealed additional scripture...why keep yourself from this potentially divine knowledge? I say 'potentially' from your standpoint. For myself, I know it is true, and I am so grateful that I live in a time when He has brought this forth. I'm grateful for the sacrifices of the many prophets who have lived since the time of Adam, and have diligently kept records of God's dealings among His children. Further, we believe that God has always and will continue to speak to his children personally and through His prophets. This really is the key to understanding our faith.

Yes I understand the part where you say 'I have faith and the Holy Spirit enlightens me" that is part of the instruction in the bible . I am trying to understand the treatment of the Old and New testaments more clearly . If it is as some of you have said, that you cannot fully trust the bible, as it is the work of man, and because of this an increasing corruption of the bibles words would ensue over time in perpetuity, then a doctrine of substitution would be needed with new revelation provided over time. Would you agree?

[scitor]

God initially SAVES us or RESCUES us from our fallen state by grace and faith alone and not works. I think this is Paul's way of saying OUR MERCIFUL GOD MAKES THE FIRST MOVE. ("I Stand at the door and knock")

However, after we have been JUSTIFIED, and the Holy Ghost can dwell with us imperfect beings through Christ's MERITS and Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS after we have accepted Christ as our Savior.

Then comes the process of SANCTIFICATION. As we RECEIVE the Holy Ghost more perfectly and RECEIVE and APPLY the GRACE God has already given us. Then God will add, GRACE FOR GRACE, Line Upon LINE until the HOLY GHOST has completely purified us, overcome our flesh, and has caused a change in us such that we have lost any and all desire for SIN. This may take all of the MILLENNIUM to complete. MUCH SANCTIFICATION occurs early on at the time we are BORN AGAIN. BUT MUCH SANCTIFICATION is promised to take place afterwards as we CONSECRATE our lives to God.

Now, while JUSTIFICATION is by FAITH and GRACE and not WORKS, SANCTIFICATION requires both FAITH, GRACE, and many WORKS.

Remember the rich young man? Master what must I do to gain eternal Life? ..... What lack I yet? If thou wilt be PERFECT Sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, and come and follow me.

THEREFORE HERE WE SEE THE COVENANT of (what LDS call) CONSECRATION which PROMISES SANCTIFICATION. AND CONSECRATING YOURSELF TO CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT WORKS.

And the Covenant of Consecration is what the LDS doctrine is focused on. LDS is a Sanctification focused doctrine and not just a Justification doctrine. This is the whole meaning of what is done in the LDS temple. Sanctification for Consecration is the Higher Covenant of the LDS Temple and the meaning behind the ritual....... "HOLINESS TO THE LORD"..... Why we are called SAINTS or SANCTS........ etc.

LDS are not about meeting God half-way or even part-way. LDS know we can do no good works without the GRACE of Christ. When LDS talk about "trying a little harder to be a little better" we are talking about SANCTIFICATION and receiving and applying that GRACE God has already given us so that God can add more.

Some Christians misunderstand LDS Doctrine because it is SANCTIFICATION focuses (if thou wilt be perfect) and not just JUSTIFICATION focused.

bumping this post....after reading and gleaning a little more from the thread, I feel this sums up the beginning discussion well.

Yes, this sounds great except it contradicts your Articles of Faith, which we spent many posts discussing and with which I came to think that the Mormons on this thread agree. it says after God has rescues us and dwells within us when we are still sinners and enables us to do good works through His righteousness. But the Articles of Faith say man is saved "by grace through works" whereas paul says man is "saved by grace through the free, undeserved gift of faith". So which is it?

[scitor]

I heard some of you talking about the three levels of heaven where do you get this belief from? Is it in your bible? because I can't find it.

[linj2fly]

Scitor, I find that your mind is full and not ready to learn. Your knowledge and understanding of the LDS doctrine is a mile wide and an inch deep.

You have stated many things on this thread and asked a few questions. You have been very well answered. If you have an honest heart and seek true understanding then I encourage to read the book of mormon and pray with an honest and sincere heart about it's truthfulness. This is how you will obtain the understanding and truth you claim to seek. All the things we've been discussing will have greater depth and context for you. Things will fall into place and all scripture will be reconciled.

Until you do this, our discussions will not be fruitful.

What is it that you stand to lose by reading the Book of Mormon in it's entirety with an open and honest heart? What is it that you stand to lose if God tells you it is true?

[linj2fly]

God initially SAVES us or RESCUES us from our fallen state by grace and faith alone and not works. I think this is Paul's way of saying OUR MERCIFUL GOD MAKES THE FIRST MOVE. ("I Stand at the door and knock")

However, after we have been JUSTIFIED, and the Holy Ghost can dwell with us imperfect beings through Christ's MERITS and Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS after we have accepted Christ as our Savior.

Then comes the process of SANCTIFICATION. As we RECEIVE the Holy Ghost more perfectly and RECEIVE and APPLY the GRACE God has already given us. Then God will add, GRACE FOR GRACE, Line Upon LINE until the HOLY GHOST has completely purified us, overcome our flesh, and has caused a change in us such that we have lost any and all desire for SIN. This may take all of the MILLENNIUM to complete. MUCH SANCTIFICATION occurs early on at the time we are BORN AGAIN. BUT MUCH SANCTIFICATION is promised to take place afterwards as we CONSECRATE our lives to God.

Now, while JUSTIFICATION is by FAITH and GRACE and not WORKS, SANCTIFICATION requires both FAITH, GRACE, and many WORKS.

Remember the rich young man? Master what must I do to gain eternal Life? ..... What lack I yet? If thou wilt be PERFECT Sell all that thou hast, give to the poor, and come and follow me.

THEREFORE HERE WE SEE THE COVENANT of (what LDS call) CONSECRATION which PROMISES SANCTIFICATION. AND CONSECRATING YOURSELF TO CHRIST IS ALL ABOUT WORKS.

And the Covenant of Consecration is what the LDS doctrine is focused on. LDS is a Sanctification focused doctrine and not just a Justification doctrine. This is the whole meaning of what is done in the LDS temple. Sanctification for Consecration is the Higher Covenant of the LDS Temple and the meaning behind the ritual....... "HOLINESS TO THE LORD"..... Why we are called SAINTS or SANCTS........ etc.

LDS are not about meeting God half-way or even part-way. LDS know we can do no good works without the GRACE of Christ. When LDS talk about "trying a little harder to be a little better" we are talking about SANCTIFICATION and receiving and applying that GRACE God has already given us so that God can add more.

Some Christians misunderstand LDS Doctrine because it is SANCTIFICATION focuses (if thou wilt be perfect) and not just JUSTIFICATION focused.

bumping this post....after reading and gleaning a little more from the thread, I feel this sums up the beginning discussion well.

Yes, this sounds great except it contradicts your Articles of Faith, which we spent many posts discussing and with which I came to think that the Mormons on this thread agree. it says after God has rescues us and dwells within us when we are still sinners and enables us to do good works through His righteousness. But the Articles of Faith say man is saved "by grace through works" whereas paul says man is "saved by grace through the free, undeserved gift of faith". So which is it?

I addressed this already..

The only other thing I wanted to respond was to your take on our 3rd article of faith which reads:
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I think I remember you saying that you understood this to be contradictory to Paul's message that we are saved by grace. If I've misunderstood please fell free to correct me. I think this is absolutely compatible with the New Testament and Paul. The Atonement is how we are saved--by it's fruit, grace. If we didn't have the atonement, we'd have no grace, so I thinks it's fair to say grace is covered in this sentence. 2nd...obedience to the laws and ordinances (like baptism) is required to be 'eligible' (for lack of a better word--please share if you have one .

Paul also seems to say that obedience is required for salvation:
Hebrews 11:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And finally, you cannot read the third article of faith and leave out the 4th
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As you can see, the first principle of the gospel is faith. Faith is needed for man to come unto Christ (an action). I believe faith is more than mere belief. It is belief unto action. Even James says this in his discourse on faith and works to the saints that rejected the poor and esteemed the rich (thereby showing a lack of faith by their actions. (See James 1). He says that if we have 'faith' and no works then we will not be saved. (v 14) In fact, he even goes so far (v19) to quasi-compare us to devils, who 'believe' and 'tremble' that there is one god....(but where are their works? they did not belief unto action {faith}--just mere belief.) He also goes on to give examples of how faith begets works and works perfects faith.

Anyway, I agree with Rand that these principles are inclusive, not exclusive, of eachother. Thanks for all the scripture references and study points.
linj2fly
captain of 100

Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:33 pm

I find that your way of thinking is very exclusive instead of inclusive.

Again...Until you read the book of mormon with a true and honest heart, and pray about it's truthfulness, our discussions will not be fruitful.

What is it that you stand to lose by reading the Book of Mormon in it's entirety with an open and honest heart? What is it that you stand to lose if God tells you it is true?

This will be my last post until you return to the forum having done the above. Hope to see you in a month

[[email protected]]

Scitor,

May I make a comment here. I converted to this church when I was 12 years old but really didn't get an answer to my prayers regarding if this church was true and if Joseph Smith was a prophet until I was 23. I didn't go to church from 18 years old to 23 and thats when I decided I needed to find out if it was true - I needed personal revelation. I asked if the Book of Mormon was true and I got an answer. I can explain that answer if anyone wants me to. My purpose for sharing this is - in my logic, if the Book of Mormon was true then I also knew Joseph Smith was a prophet. That's all I needed to know. Now if there were things in the scriptures that I didn't understand I would study, use a forum like this, but this wouldn't work to find out if the church was true. First you need to have faith enough to ask God if the Book of Mormon is true, and you have to read it while asking and second, you have to be asking with real intent, meaning if God reveals to you that yes it is true - what are you going to do with that information, are you ready for that? Ready to act on the answer to your prayer? That means you have real intent. I've really enjoyed your posts and hope you find your answers!

[scitor]

linj2fly The record was given to Joseph Smith (a descendant of Ephraim) to translate, thus the phrase, "the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim."

The Book of Mormon was brought for by God to be a companion to the bible (becoming 'one stick) in the convincing of both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. This is essential to the gathering of Israel.

I am not sure where the historical proof showed that J. Smith was a descendent of Ephriam. In fact the reading I have done shows that even your own LDS scholars will agree that there is no evidence at all that there is any Hebrew blood in any American Indian lines, which there would have to be if it were somehow to end up in joseph. But there is no evidence.

Mormon researchers such as anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy (who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints, henceforth LDS) and former-LDS and molecular biologist Simon Southerton state that the substantial collection of Native American genetic markers now available are not consistent with any detectable presence of ancestors from the ancient Middle East, and argued that this poses substantial evidence to contradict the account in the Book of Mormon. Both Murphy and Southerton have published their views on this subject (Southerton 2004).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_a ... _of_Mormon

Information from the National Museum of Natural History Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560

Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon

The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.
No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archaeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archaeological remains in Mexico and archaeological remains in Egypt.

Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.

There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum, of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.

(SIL - 76 Rev. May 1980)

So the stick of Joseph refers not to the prophet Joseph but to the Joseph the 11th son of Jacob (who was renamed israel).