an inquiring non-member

[7cylon7]

I see this is going to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

All you need to do is read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. If it is true then the explanations that the prophets have given us in our day is the way we are to interpret scriptures. If not then believe what you want.

I don't see how 11 pages of what about this what about that.... I like what king Benjamen said before he began to preach.

He was a prophet of God. He did not what them to trifle with his words but to hear and understand. The prophet did not open his words up for debate. He was giving truth straight from the source.

[scitor]

I see this is going to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

All you need to do is read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. If it is true then the explanations that the prophets have given us in our day is the way we are to interpret scriptures. If not then believe what you want.

I don't see how 11 pages of what about this what about that.... I like what king Benjamen said before he began to preach.

He was a prophet of God. He did not what them to trifle with his words but to hear and understand. The prophet did not open his words up for debate. He was giving truth straight from the source.

When you talk with people (or blog with them) you learn about who they are and how they think. And sometimes it takes many pages to do that.

The book of Mormon will not tell me what Mormons believe, Mormons will tell me that by how they converse, how they define their beliefs, how they defend them, what reasons they give.

The bible will not tell me what Baptists believe, or what Episcopalians believe. But Baptists and Episcopalians will. People, if you talk to them long enough will eventually show you what they are really all about.


I certainly did not come here to convert you or be converted. I came to learn who you were. We have a couple of Mormons running for president and I am learning about what Mormons are all about by talking to Mormons. I am also reading about the history of your church and its leaders. I am reading in the Journal of Discourses some of the sermons given by some of your leaders and learning what they believed. So I am slowly learning about who you are.

This has been fascinating for me and most enjoyable. However, as I said, I am respectful of this being your site and will understand if this is not how you want to employ it.

[keeprunning]

I understand. I just think that at this point you will understand why we are how we are and what we believe better by reading the Book of Mormon. It's not about trying to convert each other, but understanding all these things we are talking about.
It just is starting to feel like the discussion is at a dead end without acknowledgment of our scriptures that help clarify many points in the bible. But I've certainly learned more from you giving your take on things, thanks for coming.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Adding to the previous couple post on the Book of Mormon theme and it's significance to our religion and testimonies. I question whether one can acquire an understanding of the Book of Mormon except through singleness of mind and strong purpose of heart, through searching, pondering and praying. We must not only ask if it is true, but we must also ask in the name of Jesus Christ. Said Moroni, “Ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

"But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good." ( Ether 4: 11 )

"And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such." ( Moroni 7:9 )

"But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right." ( D&C 9:8 )

Joseph Smith, who translated the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon came, had this to say: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

One dictionary defines keystone as “the central wedge-shaped stone of an arch that locks its parts together.” A secondary definition is “the central supporting element of a whole.”

The Book of Mormon is a keystone because it establishes and ties together eternal principles and precepts, rounding out basic doctrines of salvation. It is the crowning gem in the diadem of our holy scriptures.

It is a keystone for other reasons also. In the promise of Moroni previously referred to—namely, that God will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon to every sincere inquirer having faith in Christ —we have a key link in a self-locking chain.

A confirming testimony of the Book of Mormon convinces “that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God” and also spiritually verifies the divine calling of Joseph Smith and that he did see the Father and the Son. With that firmly in place, it logically follows that one can also receive a verification that the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are true companion scriptures to the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

All of this confirms the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, led by a living prophet enjoying continuous revelation. From these basic verities, an understanding can flow of other saving principles of the fulness of the gospel.

The title page states that it is an account taken from the records of people living in the Americas before and after Christ; it was “written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation. … And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”

What, then, is the Book of Mormon? It is confirming evidence of the birth, life, and Crucifixion of Jesus and of His work as the Messiah and the Redeemer. Nephi writes about the Book of Mormon: “All ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ.” ( 2 Ne. 33:10 )

Nephi and his brother Jacob join with Isaiah to constitute three powerful pre-Messianic voices proclaiming the first coming of Jesus. Nephi quotes Isaiah extensively because Isaiah was the principal Old Testament prophet who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah.

The Book of Mormon establishes the truthfulness of the Bible; "And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved." ( 1 Ne. 13:40 )

It is evidence “to the world that the holy scriptures are true and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old; ( D&C 20:11 )

It foretells the establishment of the fulness of the gospel of peace and salvation. It was written to give us principles and guidelines for our eternal journey.

One of the ultimate messages of the Book of Mormon, and indeed of the Old Testament and all human history, is that mankind cannot reach perfection on our own. There is another message that comes through loud and clear from its pages. It is the often unpopular and seemingly harsh injunction “Repent or perish.” When the Book of Mormon people listened to this prophetic message, they flourished. When they forgot the message, they perished.

In Galatians Paul said, “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.” The records maintained by the Book of Mormon prophets—and portions of what is now the Bible brought from the eastern continent—served, according to Abinadi, “to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.” ( Mosiah 13:30 ) So the Book of Mormon is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.

The Book of Mormon Is the keystone of my testimony. I know its true! For I can not deny the whispering of the spirit which have confirmed this. If the Book of Mormon is not true than everything else falls with it. It is either all true or it is all false.

By the Lords own mouth He has borne witness that it is true.

And he has translated the book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true.(D&C 17:6) That it contains the truth and His words (D&C 19:26), that it was translated by power from on high (D&C 20:8), (4) that it contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; "Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;" (D&C 20:9 )

"And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel." ( D&C 42:12), that it was given by inspiration and confirmed by the ministering of angels (D&C 20:10), that it gives evidence that the holy scriptures are true;

"Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old; (D&C 20:11), and that those who receive it in faith shall receive eternal life (D&C 20:14).

Here is a good talk by late President and Prophet Ezra Taft Benson called "The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion"

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... 004d82620a____" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are a few nuggets.

There are three great reasons why Latter-day Saints should make the study of the Book of Mormon a lifetime pursuit.

The first is that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. This was the Prophet Joseph Smith’s statement. He testified that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion” (Introduction to the Book of Mormon). A keystone is the central stone in an arch. It holds all the other stones in place, and if removed, the arch crumbles.

There are three ways in which the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. It is the keystone in our witness of Christ. It is the keystone of our doctrine. It is the keystone of testimony.

The Book of Mormon is the keystone in our witness of Jesus Christ, who is Himself the cornerstone of everything we do. It bears witness of His reality with power and clarity. Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the Book of Mormon came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation. Therefore, its testimony of the Master is clear, undiluted, and full of power. But it does even more. Much of the Christian world today rejects the divinity of the Savior. They question His miraculous birth, His perfect life, and the reality of His glorious resurrection. The Book of Mormon teaches in plain and unmistakable terms about the truth of all of those. It also provides the most complete explanation of the doctrine of the Atonement. Truly, this divinely inspired book is a keystone in bearing witness to the world that Jesus is the Christ (see title page of the Book of Mormon).

The Book of Mormon is also the keystone of the doctrine of the Resurrection. As mentioned before, the Lord Himself has stated that the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ” (D&C 20:9). That does not mean it contains every teaching, every doctrine ever revealed. Rather, it means that in the Book of Mormon we will find the fulness of those doctrines required for our salvation. And they are taught plainly and simply so that even children can learn the ways of salvation and exaltation. The Book of Mormon offers so much that broadens our understandings of the doctrines of salvation. Without it, much of what is taught in other scriptures would not be nearly so plain and precious.

Finally, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it.

[Rand]

I see this is going to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

All you need to do is read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. If it is true then the explanations that the prophets have given us in our day is the way we are to interpret scriptures. If not then believe what you want.

I don't see how 11 pages of what about this what about that.... I like what king Benjamen said before he began to preach.

He was a prophet of God. He did not what them to trifle with his words but to hear and understand. The prophet did not open his words up for debate. He was giving truth straight from the source.

When you talk with people (or blog with them) you learn about who they are and how they think. And sometimes it takes many pages to do that.

The book of Mormon will not tell me what Mormons believe, Mormons will tell me that by how they converse, how they define their beliefs, how they defend them, what reasons they give.

The bible will not tell me what Baptists believe, or what Episcopalians believe. But Baptists and Episcopalians will. People, if you talk to them long enough will eventually show you what they are really all about.


I certainly did not come here to convert you or be converted. I came to learn who you were. We have a couple of Mormons running for president and I am learning about what Mormons are all about by talking to Mormons. I am also reading about the history of your church and its leaders. I am reading in the Journal of Discourses some of the sermons given by some of your leaders and learning what they believed. So I am slowly learning about who you are.

This has been fascinating for me and most enjoyable. However, as I said, I am respectful of this being your site and will understand if this is not how you want to employ it.

I think the point above is that we are all quite sure you do not understand us nearly as well as you think you do, at least to me the more this goes on the less I feel like there is any real dialogue going on that serves that purpose. An open heart is the first step to real communication, and your heart seems not to be open but your mind is indeed curious. I feel you know the scriptures very well, insofar as they support your chosen paradigm. But I feel that the vast majority of the Bible does not support your proclaimed doctrine. Grace is a true principle, but it should be inclusive, not exclusive of moral agency, faith, obedience, works, covenants, ordinances, divinely appointed priesthood authority and eternal progression. If you want to understand us in reality, do as Semipiternal has indicated above.

I have the distinct feeling you are just gaining ammunition for your ambitions in the future, that may have more to do with seeking to undermine other members of the LDS church in their faith than any other cause I can imagine. If not, I have not idea what your interest here is. I am not trying to chase you away, but the value in the discussion seems difficult to grasp to me.

[scitor]

I think the point above is that we are all quite sure you do not understand us nearly as well as you think you do, at least to me the more this goes on the less I feel like there is any real dialogue going on that serves that purpose. An open heart is the first step to real communication, and your heart seems not to be open but your mind is indeed curious. I feel you know the scriptures very well, insofar as they support your chosen paradigm. But I feel that the vast majority of the Bible does not support your proclaimed doctrine. Grace is a true principle, but it should be inclusive, not exclusive of moral agency, faith, obedience, works, covenants, ordinances, divinely appointed priesthood authority and eternal progression. If you want to understand us in reality, do as Semipiternal has indicated above.

I have the distinct feeling you are just gaining ammunition for your ambitions in the future, that may have more to do with seeking to undermine other members of the LDS church in their faith than any other cause I can imagine. If not, I have not idea what your interest here is. I am not trying to chase you away, but the value in the discussion seems difficult to grasp to me.

I did not mean to imply that I knew you well, just that i was trying to get to know you, not just as a religion but as people too.
Communication always results in better understanding of what people are all about, whereas the books will give us an idea of what the religions are all about.

I do have a curious mind, we are told to examine everything and keep only the good (1 thess 5:21), we are told to think carefully about what we are told and to test the spirits(1 john 4;1) We are told in Romans 12:2 to allow our minds to be renewed so that we can test and prove the will of God.
a curious mind without an open heart leads to dead legalism, and an open heart without a curious mind will lead to enthusiastic heresy. Both are needed.

I am sorry you think my heart is closed.

I must say, I cannot see why you would think I was talking to you for ammunition. Why would I do that and what purpose would it serve. And what bullets exactly would I be shooting

"Boy, those Mormons are just too polite" ?
or maybe

"those Mormons, sheesh, they welcomed me onto their site and put up with me for 11 pages" ?

or

" i tell you, those Mormons, you can't trust 'em ,they really know their bible" ?

there isn't much ammunition, even were I inclined in that direction,( not that I can locate any verse that talks about the virtues of loading up ammunition against your neighbor)

you never go "ad hominum", you are patient and you know your scriptures.

However, it seems as though the discourse has lost its interest for you, which is understandable. This is not the use you guys intended for this site.

So I will thank you for your time and patience and bid you farewell

Scitor

[Rand]

Sorry to see you leave, you are more than welcome, but if you really want to get to know us, follow the counsel given earlier. I loved the scriptural quotes above. You do an amazing job or sharing verse and chapter that apply to a discussion, again, you are an avid studier of the scriptures. God bless in your journey. I hope you stick around. Forgive if I miss judged you, I obviously don't understand you very well either, but encourage you to continue your discipleship as you are lead by God to do so. God Bless...

[mattctr]

Hey, Scitor, I've enjoyed having you here and reading your posts. I've learned a lot and enjoyed your insights on scripture. Please, feel free to stick around and keep the dialogue going.

Also, as you seek to know members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints better through our forum, I hope you realize that we are just a small sample of church members. Most of us on this forum do not hold favorable political views towards Mitt R. or Jon H. -- the candidates who have fueled your interest. Many, if not most, on this site come from a strong independent or libertarian (not to be confused with libertine or amoral) political persuasion whereas many lds simply buy into the traditional left-right paradigms along with most other Americans. For what I consider "good" LDS political views, I recommend the discussions and quotes available through ldsconservative.com, ldsliberty.com, and one of my favorite lds commentators from an lds perspective: http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (he is also a member of this forum).

Also, you might be interested to read a book called "The 5,000 Year Leap" by Cleon Skousen, who shares our beliefs.

Again, I've enjoyed your sincerity and openness with us. You've been forthright and kind from the beginning. Of course, I would love to see you read the Book of Mormon and gain a testimony of its Divine appointment. However, I don't doubt that the light of Christ, His Holy Spirit, has touched your life in tremendous ways! You are a scholar of the bible, something I am still working on, and I find great value and truth in your words! Please, feel welcome to contribute, and if you so choose, to venture out of this thread and discuss some of the other topics that range from ridiculous and bizarre to alarming (helpful) and insightful. None of us is perfect in our knowledge and rampant speculation abounds; some topics discussed here would be seen as extreme to most lds, BUT there is much value to be gleaned between the absurdities (which I have been guilty of at times myself). However, at the end of the day, most here are seeking the Lord. Most are seeking to learn His will and follow it with grace as our day!

[linj2fly]

Hey Scitor Hope you haven't gone away. I'm jumping in here at 'the end' (it'll probably be the 'middle' if we keep up the dialogue)--sorry I haven't jumped in sooner--I've been crazy busy this summer, but I have been keeping up here and there with your thread. (nearly 2000 views!) I'm so glad you started it--especially the discussion on the atonement, since that is the heart and soul of the gospel. It's been good for me to study this more in depth so thanks!

As a summary of what I believe about the atonement I thought I'd cut and paste from our bible dictionary...though it is not offered as ''official doctrine,'' it is in our bible as a study help, and I think it sums up rather completely what we believe about the following:

Atonement. The word describes the setting “at one” of those who have been estranged, and denotes the reconciliation of man to God. Sin is the cause of the estrangement, and therefore the purpose of atonement is to correct or overcome the consequences of sin. From the time of Adam to the death of Jesus Christ, true believers were instructed to offer animal sacrifices to the Lord. These sacrifices were symbolic of the forthcoming death of Jesus Christ, and were done by faith in him (Moses 5:5–8).

Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind. By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the fall of Adam. Hence, all shall rise from the dead with immortal bodies, because of Jesus’ atonement. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22), and all little children are innocent at birth. The atonement is conditional, however, so far as each person’s individual sins are concerned, and touches every one to the degree that he has faith in Jesus Christ, repents of his sins, and obeys the gospel. The services of the Day of Atonement foreshadowed the atoning work of Christ (Lev. 4; 23:26–32; Heb. 9). The scriptures point out that no law, ordinance, or sacrifice would be satisfactory if it were not for the atonement of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:1–9; 2 Ne. 9:5–24; Mosiah 13:27–32).

Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3:4); it is a refusal on men’s part to submit to the law of God (Rom. 8:7). By transgression man loses control over his own will and becomes the slave of sin (Rom. 7:14), and so incurs the penalty of spiritual death, which is alienation from God (Rom. 6:23). The atonement of Jesus Christ redeems all mankind from the fall of Adam and causes all to be answerable for their own manner of life. This means of atonement is provided by the Father (John 3:16–17), and is offered in the life and person of his Son, Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:19). See also Fasts; Sacrifices.

Grace. A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.

Faith. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Heb. 11:1; Alma 32:21), and must be centered in Jesus Christ in order to produce salvation. To have faith is to have confidence in something or someone. The Lord has revealed himself and his perfect character, possessing in their fulness all the attributes of love, knowledge, justice, mercy, unchangeableness, power, and every other needful thing, so as to enable the mind of man to place confidence in him without reservation. Faith is kindled by hearing the testimony of those who have faith (Rom. 10:14–17). Miracles do not produce faith, but strong faith is developed by obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ; in other words, faith comes by righteousness, although miracles often confirm one’s faith.

Faith is a principle of action and of power, and by it one can command the elements and/or heal the sick, or influence any number of circumstances when occasion warrants (Jacob 4:4–7). Even more important, by faith one obtains a remission of sins and eventually can stand in the presence of God.

All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more than belief, since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action; it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the things hoped for. A lack of faith leads one to despair, which comes because of iniquity.

Although faith is a gift, it must be cultured and sought after until it grows from a tiny seed to a great tree. The effects of true faith in Jesus Christ include (1) an actual knowledge that the course of life one is pursuing is acceptable to the Lord (see Heb. 11:4); (2) a reception of the blessings of the Lord that are available to man in this life; and (3) an assurance of personal salvation in the world to come. These things involve individual and personal testimony, guidance, revelation, and spiritual knowledge. Where there is true faith there are miracles, visions, dreams, healings, and all the gifts of God that he gives to his saints. Jesus pointed out some obstacles to faith in John 5:44 and 12:39–42 (cf. James 1:6–8).

The most complete and systematic exposition on faith is the Lectures on Faith, prepared for and delivered in the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1832. Other references to faith include JST Gen. 14:26–36; Rom. 10:14–17; 2 Cor. 5:7; Eph. 2:8–9; Heb. 11:1–40; James 2:14–26; 1 Pet. 1:8–9; Enos 1:6–8; Alma 32; Moro. 10:11; D&C 46:13–16.

http://lds.org/scriptures/bd?lang=eng&letter=f

Anyway, there you have it. The only other thing I wanted to respond was to your take on our 3rd article of faith which reads:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

I think I remember you saying that you understood this to be contradictory to Paul's message that we are saved by grace. If I've misunderstood please fell free to correct me. I think this is absolutely compatible with the New Testament and Paul. The Atonement is how we are saved--by it's fruit, grace. If we didn't have the atonement, we'd have no grace, so I thinks it's fair to say grace is covered in this sentence. 2nd...obedience to the laws and ordinances (like baptism) is required to be 'eligible' (for lack of a better word--please share if you have one .

Paul also seems to say that obedience is required for salvation:

Hebrews 11:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And finally, you cannot read the third article of faith and leave out the 4th

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

As you can see, the first principle of the gospel is faith. Faith is needed for man to come unto Christ (an action). I believe faith is more than mere belief. It is belief unto action. Even James says this in his discourse on faith and works to the saints that rejected the poor and esteemed the rich (thereby showing a lack of faith by their actions. (See James 1). He says that if we have 'faith' and no works then we will not be saved. (v 14) In fact, he even goes so far (v19) to quasi-compare us to devils, who 'believe' and 'tremble' that there is one god....(but where are their works? they did not belief unto action {faith}--just mere belief.) He also goes on to give examples of how faith begets works and works perfects faith.

Anyway, I agree with Rand that these principles are inclusive, not exclusive, of eachother. Thanks for all the scripture references and study points.

[NoGreaterLove]

If the bible is not a reliable measuring stick for truth then it is not God's book, it is man's.

Very well said. I could not have said it better. The current versions of the bible are the work of men. Men who have their own agenda. Thus the need for apostles and prophets with Christ at the head to lead us unto the truths. Just like the original Church that Christ established.

[scitor]

I would like to continue talking with you, you are all engaging interesting conversationalists. It also enables me to challenge my beliefs and see if they stand up to scripture. I think it a very worthwhile activity.

However, put yourself in my position for a moment, I am a guest on your site and I do not want to wear out my welcome and have things end with bad feelings concerning my intentions.

If people start having concerns about my "gathering ammunition" to shoot at Mormons and "not having an open heart" then they are distrusting my motives which is to say they are distrusting my relationship with truth itself and then ...what's the point in talking with people you don't trust? i wouldn't want to do it. So I would rather leave when there are still some good feelings left.

You all have been very kind and great debate partners.( Plus you don't like the two Mormon candidates which to me shows you aren't just voting the church ticket, you are voting the country ticket. It shows you have working active brains which is hard to find these days) A host /guest relationship has a certain format, it has certain rules that go along with it.

If we don't acknowledge and play by those rules, then this whole thing probably won't go so well seeing as we have some rather large elephants in the room, so to speak.

I recognize those elephants and would rather not let them run the show seeing as it is them i do not trust, rather than all of you. ( In case you jump to conclusions, notice I said "we" have elephants not "you".)

God wants us worshipping Truth, not elephants.

[LukeAir2008]

Scitor, this is not 'our' site. It's Brian M's site. He owns it, he makes the rules. You're just as entitled to be here as anyone.

So do you believe that you love truth and want to follow truth?

You believe that you are a Christian and a part of his Church so you should be familiar with this ordinance.

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning
the Lord’s body. (1 Corinthians 11:24-29)

So Scitor, do you eat and drink of the emblems of the sacrament of the Lord's supper? Who administers them to you? Are you worthy to eat and drink or do you eat and drink damnation to your soul. Do you
even believe that there are ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ that can decide your damnation or salvation. What does it mean to be worthy?

This is New Testament doctrine. This is a daily and weekly part of every Latter Day Saints life. An LDS child will be familiar with this doctrine.

Do you live and believe in another gospel?

[Observer]

I'm an Observer and have so enjoyed this thread thank you all so much!!!

I just want to contribute this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-NPPIe ... r_embedded" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rand]

I would like to continue talking with you, you are all engaging interesting conversationalists. It also enables me to challenge my beliefs and see if they stand up to scripture. I think it a very worthwhile activity.

However, put yourself in my position for a moment, I am a guest on your site and I do not want to wear out my welcome and have things end with bad feelings concerning my intentions.

If people start having concerns about my "gathering ammunition" to shoot at Mormons and "not having an open heart" then they are distrusting my motives which is to say they are distrusting my relationship with truth itself and then ...what's the point in talking with people you don't trust? i wouldn't want to do it. So I would rather leave when there are still some good feelings left.

You all have been very kind and great debate partners.( Plus you don't like the two Mormon candidates which to me shows you aren't just voting the church ticket, you are voting the country ticket. It shows you have working active brains which is hard to find these days) A host /guest relationship has a certain format, it has certain rules that go along with it.

If we don't acknowledge and play by those rules, then this whole thing probably won't go so well seeing as we have some rather large elephants in the room, so to speak.

I recognize those elephants and would rather not let them run the show seeing as it is them i do not trust, rather than all of you. ( In case you jump to conclusions, notice I said "we" have elephants not "you".)

God wants us worshipping Truth, not elephants.

Forgive my expressed judgment of you and your motives. It was not a very noble expression. My elephant is to see you receive all the truth you are willing and able to receive. I have learned much, and gained new insights into grace from you, and am grateful for your sharing here. Glad you will stick around. I don't have large chunks of time to post, and doing the required research to do so intelligently is difficult, but it has been rewarding to try and keep up with the thread. Blessings.

[scitor]

Lukeair
Scitor, this is not 'our' site. It's Brian M's site. He owns it, he makes the rules. You're just as entitled to be here as anyone.

well considering the name he gave the forum i am guessing he intended it for Mormons. Just trying to be respectful of that fact

So do you believe that you love truth and want to follow truth?

yes

Scitor, do you eat and drink of the emblems of the sacrament of the Lord's supper? Who administers them to you? Are you worthy to eat and drink or do you eat and drink damnation to your soul. Do you
even believe that there are ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ that can decide your damnation or salvation. What does it mean to be worthy?

The last time I had communion was Friday. we read 1 Corinthian 11:23-32
It had been a long time since my last communion. I did not feel comfortable taking it for a couple of reasons, the most important being that I held bitterness in my heart and that is NOT the time to be coming to the Lord's table. As to the question "what does it mean to be worthy?" The bible tells us there is not one righteous or worthy ( You know the verses I will not pound you with them anymore) so being worthy means having a worthiness that is not our own, given to us as a gift, which we have not earned and that which we must respect. its power is great and if we misuse it we will eat and drink damnation unto ourselves.
In eating and drinking of him we are acknowledging his covenant with us in a way that however we are treating that covenant actualizes in us. So if like John says If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. andIf we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1)
In this way Paul tells us that we eat and drink illness and weakness into ourselves.
Bitterness and hatred in your heart towards another should be indicative to any Christian that there is spiritual work to be done and God promises us he will finish the job he started in us so the work will be done "
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" Proverbs 3:11-12, Hebrews 12: 6

But coming to communion with anger resentment and bitterness in us, is to say we do not understand the Lords prayer

"Give us each day our daily bread and forgive us as we forgive others". These two work together and we are saying we acknowledge this in communion. To eat the bread with bitterness is to eat that bitterness right down into your flesh where it putrefies.

To walk in the light means to always be taking a look at what is active in the old man and to be careful to allow the light to clean it up .

[scitor]

Forgive my expressed judgment of you and your motives. It was not a very noble expression. My elephant is to see you receive all the truth you are willing and able to receive. I have learned much, and gained new insights into grace from you, and am grateful for your sharing here. Glad you will stick around. I don't have large chunks of time to post, and doing the required research to do so intelligently is difficult, but it has been rewarding to try and keep up with the thread. Blessings.

You all are a pleasure to blog with. I have also learned much and will continue to I am sure.

I think we should agree to go a little easy on one another, though. Because the elephants are never what you think they are or what you would like them to be. Elephants are always big smelly creatures that don't have much to do with noble intentions. They are just big, unwieldy and hard to get out the door. And they have a wicked temper when they get mad.

[Rand]

Amen

[freedomforall]

Forgive my expressed judgment of you and your motives. It was not a very noble expression. My elephant is to see you receive all the truth you are willing and able to receive. I have learned much, and gained new insights into grace from you, and am grateful for your sharing here. Glad you will stick around. I don't have large chunks of time to post, and doing the required research to do so intelligently is difficult, but it has been rewarding to try and keep up with the thread. Blessings.

You all are a pleasure to blog with. I have also learned much and will continue to I am sure.

I think we should agree to go a little easy on one another, though. Because the elephants are never what you think they are or what you would like them to be. Elephants are always big smelly creatures that don't have much to do with noble intentions. They are just big, unwieldy and hard to get out the door. And they have a wicked temper when they get mad.

Stick around Scitor. You have done a great job of getting increased research and study done by us Mormons. Sometimes we need that. It actually increases our testimonies of the truthfulness of the gospel in doing so. It is good for you to stretch our understandings by asking questions that do not allow for opinion, just truth from scripture.

[scitor]

Thank you for the invitation. It occurs to me though that the problem of how we will argue points still remains unresolved. One of the things I learned from this blog is that mormons do not believe in the bible as the absolute measuring stick for truth. For that measuring stick they look to their current apostles and prophets.( I suppose that means that whatever Brigham Young or J. Smith said is also abrogated )

So now we are struck with the problem of two measuring sticks, and this can't work.
It would be like trying to have an argument with one person using the classical laws of logic which applies the law of the excluded middle and one person using non-classical logic which allows for an included middle, because it is multi-valued and doesn't recognize and either or sytem of determination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_logic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Biva ... ded_middle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ( look under bivalence and the excluded middle)

In order to have a productive argument everyone has to agree on the measuring stick, mine is the old and new testaments but you have your Book of Mormon and your Doctrines and covenants, which will at times contradict the bible.

So how do we discuss things ?

For instance Mormons say God is an actual people type person with limbs like ours
"Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, he has a body, with parts the same as you and I have" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.24).

But the bible says "God is Spirit" John 4:24

Brigham young states that Adam had more than one wife and was God the father

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and ourGod, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. Jour. Disc. 1:50

But the bible only talks about Eve and says nothing about Adam bringing her ( God brought her from Adam) or Adam being our only God

The Mormons believe that there will be marriage in heaven, I know that they believe it is so based on mark 10 where it says

"And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the Gospel's,
"But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

If I were allowed to argue this on the basis of the bible i would say well, the meaning is obscure and could mean marriage in heaven or it could mean a hundred fold of the worth of those things, that those were just a shadow of things to come that would not include Marriage as we have on earth but some other thing that is worth even more than that.

I could then look for other verses which would clarify the issue with more direct meaning. Ones that would not have to be interpreted because they just directly said what they meant.
Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Luke 20:34-36

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


But if we can't use the bible as a measuring stick, then i confess I will be lost.

[NoGreaterLove]

Thank you for the invitation. It occurs to me though that the problem of how we will argue points still remains unresolved. One of the things I learned from this blog is that mormons do not believe in the bible as the absolute measuring stick for truth. For that measuring stick they look to their current apostles and prophets.( I suppose that means that whatever Brigham Young or J. Smith said is also abrogated )

So now we are struck with the problem of two measuring sticks, and this can't work.
It would be like trying to have an argument with one person using the classical laws of logic which applies the law of the excluded middle and one person using non-classical logic which allows for an included middle, because it is multi-valued and doesn't recognize and either or sytem of determination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_logic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Biva ... ded_middle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ( look under bivalence and the excluded middle)

In order to have a productive argument everyone has to agree on the measuring stick, mine is the old and new testaments but you have your Book of Mormon and your Doctrines and covenants, which will at times contradict the bible.

So how do we discuss things ?

For instance Mormons say God is an actual people type person with limbs like ours
"Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, he has a body, with parts the same as you and I have" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.24).

But the bible says "God is Spirit" John 4:24

Brigham young states that Adam had more than one wife and was God the father

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and ourGod, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. Jour. Disc. 1:50

But the bible only talks about Eve and says nothing about Adam bringing her ( God brought her from Adam) or Adam being our only God

The Mormons believe that there will be marriage in heaven, I know that they believe it is so based on mark 10 where it says

"And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the Gospel's,
"But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

If I were allowed to argue this on the basis of the bible i would say well, the meaning is obscure and could mean marriage in heaven or it could mean a hundred fold of the worth of those things, that those were just a shadow of things to come that would not include Marriage as we have on earth but some other thing that is worth even more than that.

I could then look for other verses which would clarify the issue with more direct meaning. Ones that would not have to be interpreted because they just directly said what they meant.
Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Luke 20:34-36

And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


But if we can't use the bible as a measuring stick, then i confess I will be lost.

We do share a common measuring stick. I suggest we use this one.
James 1:5
5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Moroni 10:
3Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

[NoGreaterLove]

Scitor
I think we can all agree that we mortals have very little knowledge compared to God. We can also agree that our ways are not always his ways and our judgement is not always his judgement.
This being the case, it is possible for man to make many errors in his interpretation of scripture or teachings from those who have authority from God.
So to use the bible or any source as the absolute measuring stick is senseless and will lead to error.
The root of your inquiries comes down to one question. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Christ's one and only church or is it fabricated by Satan to lead men astray.
The only legitimate and trustworthy source to inquire upon is God himself. I testify to you that I have inquired of God himself in the name of Jesus Christ whether this church is his or not and he has manifested to me through the Holy Ghost that it is the only Church of Jesus Christ.
I now have a sure knowledge of this fact of which I can not deny. Therefore, the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith and President Monson are true prophets of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's Church.
So all other sources are minute in comparison to the witness I have obtained directly from God.
I would exhort you to seek the same truth that you may know truth from error.

[Rand]

Thank you for the invitation. It occurs to me though that the problem of how we will argue points still remains unresolved. One of the things I learned from this blog is that mormons do not believe in the bible as the absolute measuring stick for truth. For that measuring stick they look to their current apostles and prophets.( I suppose that means that whatever Brigham Young or J. Smith said is also abrogated )

So now we are struck with the problem of two measuring sticks, and this can't work.
It would be like trying to have an argument with one person using the classical laws of logic which applies the law of the excluded middle and one person using non-classical logic which allows for an included middle, because it is multi-valued and doesn't recognize and either or sytem of determination

[/i]

But if we can't use the bible as a measuring stick, then i confess I will be lost.

Scitor, I would suggest this isn't an argument. I would also posit that the measuring stick is "truth". If we leave it to the Bible, which doesn't extend itself as the ultimate measuring stick does it? It refers to the Book of Mormon in several places itself. By suggesting the bible as the only measuring stick, now you are left with the need to interpret what you think it means. God is a Spirit. I see your take, yet, Moses spoke to God face to face as a man speaks to his friend. How can this be? Was it two or three times Peter denied Christ? The Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly. There are imperfections in the book. We are told that by the mouth of two or more witnesses I will establish all my words. The Book of Mormon is the second witness of Jesus Christ and the confirming witness of truth.

If you want to argue to come up with truth, it will never be arrived at. As NGL indicated above, use the gift of revelation, ask and ye shall receive as Christ taught. Why give the command to ask and ye shall receive if we are not suppose to do that why give the commandment? There is nothing in the Bible to preclude continuing revelation. The counsel in Revelations was given before the book of John so it can't be applicable to the whole Bible or John would have precluded his own later work.

[freedomforall]

Scitor, I think others will concur, there are a lot on Mormons who can't say for certain that this church is true. Every person in or out of the church has to, first, ask God if the church is true, second, read and ponder scriptures to learn just who the Savior is and what He is able to do for us. Nothing can be taken for granted, nor can anyone be saved while their back is turned to the Savior. He wants all of us to return to Father, but will not force anyone to do it. He stands at the door, but we have to open it if we want His help.

It has already been posted here, but I'll do it again. The stick of Judah (Bible) and the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon) mentioned in the bible is the complete measuring stick we use. Small errors in either one does not make them useless. The use of both those books is how we say we have the "fullness of the gospel" because of many plain and precious parts that over the years have been taken out of the bible by persons of other faiths, removed because they either didn't understand them or they just plain didn't believe them and didn't want anyone else knowing they were in the book. The Book of Mormon, by and large, only compliments the Bible...and it teaches us more about Christ, who He is, what His characteristics are and so much more.

Ezekiel 37:19
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

2 Pet. 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

wrest = twist, distort

[scitor]

from No-Greater-love
Scitor
I think we can all agree that we mortals have very little knowledge compared to God. We can also agree that our ways are not always his ways and our judgement is not always his judgement.

Yes but as Rand reminded me "the mystery of godliness is no excuse for not knowing". The truth is that we are given the mind of Christ. For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16)But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it(1 John 2:20)

This being the case, it is possible for man to make many errors in his interpretation of scripture or teachings from those who have authority from God.

.We can make errors but we can ask him and he will give us the wisdom we need. If any of you lacks Wisdom he should ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him" (James 1:5)

So to use the bible or any source as the absolute measuring stick is senseless and will lead to error.

If we use it without the aide of the Spirit you are right it will be just senseless mush"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments," 1 Cor 2:14-15)

The root of your inquiries comes down to one question. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Christ's one and only church or is it fabricated by Satan to lead men astray.

The root of my present inquiry is only can we use the bible as our measuring stick

The only legitimate and trustworthy source to inquire upon is God himself.

That's why we are told to ask him for wisdom concerning the gospel not another man, As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. ( 1 john2:27):or another gospel, When Paul was dealing with the church of Corinth on just these issues he saidif you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.(2 Cor:4) and to the Galatians " But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the
one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" Gal 1:8

I testify to you that I have inquired of God himself in the name of Jesus Christ whether this church is his or not and he has manifested to me through the Holy Ghost that it is the only Church of Jesus Christ.

Ok, then we should be able, as Brigham Young says, discuss that revelation in terms of the bible and have it exposed as true .""Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.126

I now have a sure knowledge of this fact of which I can not deny. Therefore, the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith and President Monson are true prophets of Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's Church.
So all other sources are minute in comparison to the witness I have obtained directly from God.
I would exhort you to seek the same truth that you may know truth from error

This is exactly what I am trying to do

[scitor]

from freedom fighter
Ezekiel 37:19
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand

.Ezekiel was giving a future prophecy about the tribes of Israel, soonto be scattered after babylon throughout the nations, being united in the future under the rule of "david" or Christ. I am not really sure how you can use this as a measuring stick, its a prophecy for the future about the Jews being united in their own country. How is that a measuring stick?

2 Pet. 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ok, but you must tell me which scriptures and how you think I have distorted them.