LDS Freedom Forum

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/happy-is ... and-woman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Temporal, spiritual, and eternal liberty and the blessings of a righteous posterity are inseparably linked. Are you enslaving yourself?

Happiness, that is true joy, is something that all of Heavenly Father’s children desire to have. The Psalmist says that “Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them” (Psalms 127:5). What is a quiver and what do we need to fill it with to bring us that happiness?

When we read the context, of course, more understanding is opened up to us. King Solomon writes, “Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them.” (Psalms 137:3–5) A quiver is a case for holding or carrying arrows. It was used as a metaphor to point out the fact that when one fills up their life with children, which are “an heritage of the Lord”, true happiness follows.

Children are such an essential part of our joy in life, as well as a crucial part of the plan of salvation, that bringing them into the world was the very first commandment given to our first parents in the Garden of Eden. God said to them “Be fruitful, and multiply” (Gen 1:22). After a few other instructions, God again reiterated His first commandment and said “Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” (Gen 1:28)

Modern Prophets have declared that “God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force”. (The Family: A Proclamation to the World, The First Presidency)

... read the rest at the link above

I though this could cause some good discussion. After reading the article, what do you think?

Birth control is an issue between the couple and the Lord. We are not given to know every reason why the Lord may counsel the couple to use birth control. We have been given some general guidelines for what reasons are NOT good reasons... such as to finish schooling or enjoy a honeymoon period. There are many reasons why a couple may opt for birth control. Some of those may be physical, spiritual, and emotional well being. Mine is not to judge.

The general rule is given to us at the temple and in scripture. Multiply! Birth control is simply a tool which can be used for good or evil.

I think it is 100% between a couple and the Lord. I know in our case, we tried on many occasions after we had our 3rd (1997) to have a 4th since we always wanted a family of 6, but it never happened and we did not use any form of birth control during that period and it ended up being a blessing because of my being laid off twice after 2001 (which would have made the affordability aspect of it very, very hard). After 2005, we used birth control off and on and then in 2007 we found out that #4 was on its way and he is a special little guy to our families (both sides). The Lord works in mysterious ways. So, is contraception evil? No. Does it fulfill the Lord's command to multiply and replenish the earth? No.

It is a personal choice between man, wife and the man upstairs and if that couple decides to use contraception or if there is a vasectomy/hysterectomy involved when they are perfectly capable of having more children (especially financially), then they are depriving themselves of blessings (IMHO). My own sister-in-law told her husband to get a vasectomy about 2-3 years ago owing to some emotional/attraction issues in the marriage, so he did, but she was still relatively young (late 30's) and she is a stay at home Mom since her husband makes a good living as a software engineer. They could have easily had 1-2 more kids, but because of my sister-in-law's unhappiness/uncertainty in the marriage and her lifestyle of money and spending being the only thing keeping her content at this point, she wasn't going to be more happy having anymore kids. Wonder how the Lord will look on something like that?

Agreed ChelC! Unless your are only having relations with your spouse to produce children, you are performing a form of birth control when you try to time things. There really is no difference in my mind.

Personally I find the choice, "No, the policy that says it is between the couple and the Lord trumps past statements" to be an interesting one. If you read the article, (and many others like it) you'll find that many of the statements included aren't as old as you might think. Raise of hands for those who remember the Proclamation on the family being read for the first time? Seems pretty recent to me. Also, I think that document is one that most church members would agree to be "official church doctrine".

I personally would never go around telling anyone how to live their lives, (nor do I think that is the intent of this post) but I do think it makes for an interesting gospel discussion. I don't see anything wrong with that anymore than a discussion on whether or not one should vaccinate their children.

I also find it interesting, as one whose current family situation is a bit out of the social norm, (yes even in Utah) that most people find it perfectly okay to comment to me on my personal fertility choices. Everyone from family members, to strangers at Walmart have no problem telling me what they think about my soon to be 5 children, 5 and under. But they would be horrendously offended if I ever dared turned the cards the other way. I for one appreciate having a place that I feel comfortable discussing this topic.

I agree 100percent people or couples in this instances must make a informed choice about any form of birth control and that is their right >as too it being Evil? well only God knows the "Hearts of man" , I am pretty sure society has always tried too play God with eugenics and still does > my wife and I laughed when someone mention birth control to us" I can concieve when I want" I believe that too be a True Disciple of Christ one knows who has the "Real Control" of conception

just my thoughts cheers sorry if I offended anyone

At least some of our attitude about birth control comes from Catholic Church. Remember that it is Satan's game to take things to the extreme either one way or the other. Also Gen 38:8-10.

One example of going to the extremes is Usury. Yes, usury is prohibited in the OT, but the Catholic Church interpreted usury include simple interest or even collecting any type of loan origination fee. The consequence of this extreme-interpretation was that it wasn't profitable to lend. Therefore, very few could afford to do it, and consequently the economies of Europe were starved of credit and liquidity which was a major contributer to the Dark Ages.

Another consequence of this over-interpretation of Usury, was that it opened up the door for Satan to control the credit and banking "black" market. The first European banks were called Lombards, which were simply the earliest Pawn and Title Loan Shops. Since the Bible said it was okay to collect usury from strangers, Jews were set up as the early Pawn Shop owners. However, Jesuits, Knights Templars (templar houses), and Knights Hospitalers were also involved early on in upper management.

In the same way, I think the our feelings on birth control could be a bit over-interpreted. Birth control can't be all bad because God created a bit of natural birth control in many women who breast feed. He also limits the days of a women's fertility during the month and during her lifetime.

LDS know that "the act of marriage" is the sacrament of the marriage covenant and not just for procreation. Also, medical science recognizes that there can be wisdom in healthy spacing of children. Again, I agree that choosing when and how many children to have is a personal issue between and married couple and God. Married couples ideally should want to have children, but that continual righteous desire doesn't mean that couples should necessarily disregard the health issues. There is a balance between faith, unselfishness, and wisdom. Where that balance is, should be a personally inspired decision.

generally

Mahonri wrote:http://www.mormonchronicle.com/happy-is ... and-woman/


I though this could cause some good discussion. After reading the article, what do you think?

I was clearly wrong. It is clear that most are too immature and despising of Gospel truths to have a grown up discussion.

I just read this beautiful post and thought I would share it here: http://womeninthescriptures.blogspot.co ... i-had.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I didn't read the whole article yet Mahonri. Was it talking about birth control being a form of abortion? That is an interesting topic and I know LDS doctors that refuse to provide certain types because of that.

But I'm responding because just as with many doctrines in the church, it becomes irksome to me when I hear the justifications for breaking the Lord's commands over and over again as if they are the norm and not the exception to the rule (mothers working outside the home is another glaring example), so I feel the need to respond.

davedan wrote:At least some of our attitude about birth control comes from Catholic Church.

The above cannot be used as a reason for disregarding the words of Prophets. I cannot agree that the stance they have stated comes from the Catholic church, but believe it comes from the Lord. Perhaps some of the membership's views do, if that is what you meant (we should always try to look to the correct source of doctrine and not just opinions of others), but when you look at the membership of the church as a whole we are so far on the other extreme (few kids and/or delaying childbirth) that it also disproves the above if you are taking the Catholic stance to mean a strict avoidance of birth control and encouragement of large families.

I disagree with the usury analysis, but that is another topic entirely.

davedan wrote:There is a balance between faith, unselfishness, and wisdom. Where that balance is, should be a personally inspired decision.

I disagree with the premise that "Faith, Unselfishness, and Wisdom" must somehow give in to each other or make room for each other to create balance. I hope that wasn't what was meant. When any of the above qualities is had in correct form, they promote and inspire the others to increasingly greater levels. You can be full of faith while being full of wisdom and selflessness at the same time; the Savior surely was.

It sounds as though the wisdom being promoted is that of medical science, and yes, as it is accepted today it would require a drop in faith (A glass of wine a day is good for the heart!). I witness that there can be no compromising or "balance" with falsehood and evil --evil will always win. Do we know that our specific case requires us to allow further healing than is naturally provided by the Lord or is it medical science telling us we should wait an arbitrary amount of time? Many don't even bother to ask the Lord because it is just a given in our society that you should wait...and for years...without question. Does the Lord mean for us to wait till we are perfectly healthy before having children? I don't think that is the case either.

We know that the current leadership states simply that it is between the couple and the Lord, but they have never negated all of the council from past Prophets and Apostles who have given the Lord's standard...and they have been very clear that the only times it is considerable is for maternal and infant well-being. And just as in the exceptions to the Lord's laws on abortion, being a possible exception doesn't mean it is automatically the "right" choice, just that you need to seek the Lord's council in making the decision. In all other instances there is no decision to be made because abortion is wrong. As with abortion, I believe they were speaking of serious concerns and not simply the general "get well" postpartum period. As stated by Davedan, the Lord has already provided natural means for that time of healing. Are we trusting Him or are we trusting in the arm of flesh and its pharmacology?

I am reminded of Elder Oaks' CES talk "The Dedication of a Lifetime" when he said:

I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught this same thing in another way. When he was asked how he governed such a diverse group of Saints, he said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves” (in John Taylor, “The Organization of the Church,”
Millennial Star, Nov. 15, 1851, 339). In what I have just said, I am simply teaching correct principles and
inviting each one of you to act upon these principles by governing yourself.

http://lds.org/broadcast/ces/Oaks_000_2005.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the Lord has once again not left us without guidance and has given us a principled standard. It is up to us to figure out, through prayer, fasting, study and personal revelation, how to apply those principles to our own lives and in all circumstances. My fear is that as I look around my own ward and others I have lived in, that as a people this is yet another command we have failed to follow and that by our collective choices, the Lord's chosen have been restrained from preaching directly against such actions any longer (as with wanting a king in times past, government school in the early church, government and freedom in the last 50-100 years, etc).

I can admit openly that this is a doctrine that hit me hard when I first read in-depth about it. I was angry and offended! Can you imagine? How awful, really...And I had not even gone against these teachings (that I hadn't known anyway) but still it took me a good week to accept and later learn to love the truths contained therein. I continue to struggle with knowing how to apply these principles to my situation as I do have various complications in my pregnancies and even postpartum, but I have found that while there are difficult struggles and great hardships, they are for my "profit and learning." God is a God of miracles.

As I look at the families in our ward that have just a few kids and could still have more, only a small handful deal with circumstances beyond their control such as age at marriage, fertility issues, complicated pregnancies or inherited genetic illnesses. I know most of them well enough to not be judging them, they'll openly say "I only wanted 2 kids." If with all my complications and issues I don't fall into the exception to the rule, surely the majority of our ward, without those complications, don't either.

It seems like I just wrote this on the forum within the week, but here it is again: What is one of the main blessings of exaltation? That of eternal increase...more children. Do we think we can refuse that blessing in this life and yet be worthy of it in the eternities? Whether we act against that doctrine because of being misled by the world or because of open rebellion, the end results are the same; we lose our exaltation.

C Brown

I was clearly wrong. It is clear that most are too immature and despising of Gospel truths to have a grown up discussion.

Mahonri, first of all, I want to thank you for the thread. At first, when I read your post immediately above, I was very put off by it, and frankly I still am, but I want to thank you for starting the thread, and for all the other thoughts that have been expressed in the discussion.

This is subject that I have some experience with, and actually discussed at some length when I was a newcomer to the forum over three years ago. The way this forum cycles, as new people come and go, and often discuss things that have been thoroughly discussed earlier by their predecessors is something I have commented on before. Some people seem to wonder why people quit participating on the forum, but from my experience it seems like it often is kind of a maturing process, where discussing topics with others is helpful to sort out one's own views, etc. At first, many can't seem to get enough of it, but as time passes, and things change, they become more selective, etc., especially when they see new discussions of things that have been discussed many times before.

Birth control fits in that category. But I am thankful for the new discussion, and thoughts, and posts, etc., because they have helped bring further clarity to me and my own situation. I especially appreciated the link to the very thoughtful and thought-provoking post from the women in the scriptures blog. That was really good.

Without going into any significant detail, let me just say that 20-25 years ago, when we were young and newly married, etc., my wife and I followed the worldly conventional wisdom to practice birth control and wait to have children. At the time and in the circles we turned it, frankly not only was it the norm, but considered the responsible thing to do. Again, I have discussed this at length before, and remember a very good discussion with ChelC at the time.

As I have matured in the gospel since then in my personal journey through life, though, that decision has become one of my biggest regrets in life. It is something that I do think we will be held accountable for. Very thankful for the principles of repentance and forgiveness. There's lots of good food for thought here. I wish I had seen and been involved in a discussion like this 25 years ago, but I probably wouldn't have been ready for it at that time.

katers wrote:I just read this beautiful post and thought I would share it here: http://womeninthescriptures.blogspot.co ... i-had.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you so much for sharing this katers!!! :ymhug:

My personal preference is to avoid birth control altogether, but I will say there is a big difference between using birth control to postpone or limit the size of your family (so that you can enjoy that better house, car, annual vacation, lifestyle, career, degree, more free time, etc) - and using birth control to create healthy spacing between children, according to the preferences of the mother. Some pregnancies are harder on some than others... I remember having this conversation with my fairly orthodox mother; she used birth control inbetween children to create what she felt was a healthy gap (for her physical and mental state). She had eight children in all. She always wanted a large family, and I believe she did a good job in fulfilling the spirit and letter of the law, yet she used birth control. I would say using BC for the first reason is selfish and ungodly, but the second reason (why my mother used) isn't ungodly and selfish. Quite a few of the references to BC by our prophets usually had to do with postponing or limiting the size of your family. But, I definitely see the argument that it should only be used in the exceptions as listed in the article. I'm not sure, to be honest.

While I can agree that there are likely many members who are putting off and preventing children without just cause, I'm really turned off by how much judgment is happening. I have personally known several families who've struggled with infertility privately, and been judged unrighteously during that time... many actually. My husband and I sometimes joked with people who seemed more nosey than caring that we just wanted a nice house or were saving for a boat.

Some of the same people on the forum who believe in the many pollutants in our food and environment which cause health issues, it seems would prefer to believe couples are worldly instead of experiencing problems.

I have also known people who've silently dealt with health problems such as molar pregnancies which require a long wait to conceive again to avoid cancer. I've known people whose husbands refused more children even though they desired them. I've known women forced to work by their husbands, or those simply having marital problems for whom the stress of a new baby would be a nail in the coffin.

But back to infertility... you simply don't always know. Because I walk that road and am open about it, I've had many people come to me privately and counsel with me about treatment and just vent their emotions. I would say most of them have mentioned being judged harshly by members of the church who rather than mind their own business, would prefer to assume the worst about people in their self righteousness.

I think that is why the church has declared it's between a couple and the Lord, not because they've capitulated. See my siggy, it applies.

If you are simply using birth control because it's what the world tells you, or for other selfish reason, repent. If you're doing your part, continue.

Let's lift and encourage and refrain from tearing down those who walk in innocence down a painful road some of are lucky enough never to taste the bitterness of.

This isn't about condemning anyone. This isn't about judging anyone that doesn't have kids. It is about principles of right and wrong. I can't tell if anyone, nor do I personally care, is obeying the law or not.

Many people cannot have kids. Not my business.

However, that has nothing to do with the topic.

It totally has to do with the topic. Does anyone here disagree that the counsel is have kids? I have seen no dissension. It seems you will not be happy until someone assures you that most people are sinners.

I'll make you happy.

ALL people are sinners.

ChelC wrote:It totally has to do with the topic. Does anyone here disagree that the counsel is have kids? I have seen no dissension. It seems you will not be happy until someone assures you that most people are sinners.

I'll make you happy.

ALL people are sinners.

With all due respect ChelC, I think you're taking Mahonri's comments the wrong way. This discussion is just like any other on the forum, in that some of us like to discuss it to help form our own views. I really don't give a hoot, nor do I think about what others do personally....and I think it a bit unfair for you to assume that anyone is doing so. I for one am VERY careful not to pry into other's situations when they don't have children, or a certain number, because I know how it feels in reverse. Honestly, EVERYWHERE I go, I get comments about the number of children I have. It seems that there is an accepted number of children in our society and everything below AND above that becomes conversational fodder for anyone who cares to express their opinion. We have even had to endure comments and criticism from our own family members, and are often the butt of many jokes.

I think that for some they choose to look at those of us who discuss this topic as judging because the very topic makes them uncomfortable. Those who feel so are free to avoid the thread....but that doesn't make it bad for the rest of us to discuss it. Also, as has been pointed out, sometimes discussion helps us to reach ideas and conclusions we might not have on our own. Count me in on that group from this discussion in times past. I for one am grateful that this topic has been discussed as it has forever changed my life in ways that bring me the most joy.

CBrown, thanks for your post. It was very well written.

Perhaps I am premature in my disgust. I've participated in many similar threads over the years. I dislike it when I hear people commenting on fellow ward members. I have seen it a lot on the board here. Maybe I'm like an old dog who took a while to get riled up, but now when I see the kid coming down the street with the stick it gets my hair on end.

I've seen people judging frequently here, and I've judged frequently here, myself. Most of us could stand to repent in this regard including myself. I'm not opposed to discussing what the Lord through his servants has said. But to apply our interpretations to others is unfair. We don't know what the percentages are and we shouldn't pretend to. When we start off our comments with "members of my ward" or something similar we are indeed making judgments, and since I doubt anyone here knows the life story of all the ward members and it's unlikely that we have stewardship, it's an unrighteous judgment.

If we can stick to what prophets have said and what the official policy is and why, that's good enough.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

I agree with ChelC. We are judged and held accountable to the Lord, based on what we know. There are many in the Church who haven't considered everything the prophets have said on this subject. A young married couple may hear that its between them and the Lord. The bishop in their college ward may reiterate that, and suggest that it won't hurt for them to wait a little while, and get their feet under them, etc., to have kids. It happens. What are they going to be inclined to do?

Been there, done that, and seen and experienced every possible side of this discussion. The general admonition is to multiply and replenish the earth, and it is between every married couple and the Lord how they go about that. The bottom line it is a private matter, that is really no one else's business. What goes on in the marital bedroom, including BC, is between the parties and the Lord. Like ChelC says, it's not for us to judge. Most of the discussions I have seen on this subject over the years have been very judgmental, and it has seemed like the primary motivation has been to cast guilt.

Well, I have felt the guilt, and long before seeing these discussions, where the subject is sometimes discussed ad nauseum, but there's not much I can do about it now, other than ask for forgiveness. But again, that forgiveness is likewise a private matter, between me, my wife, and the Lord. I agree with ChelC, that if the tone is to encourage, uplift, and embrace, that's all good. If it's a condescending, condemning, judgmental tone, I don't see anything good or positive come of it.

I chose option 3.

I don't know if the article necessarily covers every situation where birth control may be justifiable, but I believe that it is generally evil, or rather our reasons for using it as a society are generally evil.

Also, I don't believe the statement declaring the decision to use birth control to be "between the couple and the Lord" contradicts past statements given by prophets. To focus exclusively on that quote, without considering the greater context of prophetic counsel is to put our blinders on.....and put our exaltation in jeopardy.

I'm sorry if anyone is offended or feels judged by my comments. It is my intent to discuss general principles here, and not your individual circumstances.

Lol, I don't see anything judgmental in those comments, patriotsaint.

I do think that when a person is seeking the standard, they may initially search out the official position. Just as with many gospel principles there are degrees of the law given and our judgment can be based on what we've been given, and our individual circumstances.

We should be careful with judging others according to our standard. I take the scriptures seriously which state that we will be judged by the measure in which we judge. I know I need a lot of forgiveness.

I'll use my children as an example. They are very different and my husband and I apply the "law" to them differently. We know that for our older son, life in general is more of a challenge. We overlook in him things we would not overlook in the younger of our sons. An outsider would unrighteously judge my child according to their standard.

All of us when measured against our Father's standard fall very short. The counsel of our current prophet and leaders of a couple may indeed by enough and the right counsel for certain couples.

This is the standard advice given at LDS.org:

Birth Control

Children are one of the greatest blessings in life, and their birth into loving and nurturing families is central to God’s purposes for humanity. When husband and wife are physically able, they have the privilege and responsibility to bring children into the world and to nurture them. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.

Since we know the Lord wants us to have children and that generally speaking birth control is neither good or evil because it's just a tool, maybe we can change the topic-
What about the faithless morons that have to have a doctor deliver their children in a hospital?? My ward is full of these evil arm of the flesh worshippers. =;

to "entertain" the thot of birth control, is "generally" wrong, EVEN with incest and rape...consider, Father won't send a child anywhere he doesn't want it

sbsion wrote:to "entertain" the thot of birth control, is "generally" wrong, EVEN with incest and rape...consider, Father won't send a child anywhere he doesn't want it

The official position doesn't appear to agree with you.