LDS Freedom Forum

Referring to what I said above......Consecrating our bodies, and subsequently our fertility to the Lord.....it would certainly be a stark contrast to the worldly view taken that it's "my body and I'll do what I want with it".....especially when it comes to abortion.

katers wrote:Referring to what I said above......Consecrating our bodies, and subsequently our fertility to the Lord.....it would certainly be a stark contrast to the worldly view taken that it's "my body and I'll do what I want with it".....especially when it comes to abortion.

Brings new meaning to 1 Cor 6:19-20

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

"....glorify God in your body...." Seems like that would go hand in hand with Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Looking at those two scriptures together, what better way do we have as women to glorify God than by bringing spirits into the world?

In regards to consecration. I think it's entirely possible to consecrate your body to the Lord AND still get the answer to use birth control from time to time. More often than not I believe consecrating ourselves requires action.

Let me put it another way - rather in the reverse. Both my kids required work - lots of it. If I passively turned myself over to the Lord but never acted, we'd have neither of our children. Consecrating ourselves can indeed require action, and I believe in many cases birth control is a tool for good.

We are expected to use our power to procreate in wisdom. For some people that will mean turning it over to the Lord and having as many children as He blesses you with. For others that will mean actively going through fertility treatments. For others it will be adopting. Still others will have periods of time where they will use birth control for a myriad of personal reasons.

No one here denies that there are exceptions to the rule. I 100% agree that application of this principle will look different in every family. And I for one don't find it a passive effort to simply not use birth control. It's a prayerful decision that is on my mind probably more than it is for women who DO use it. You tend to use the pill, and forget about things....at least that's how I was.

To put it more plainly....I don't think this thread was to say that birth control is generally evil, but rather the general use of birth control is evil. Using it simply because that's what the culture dictates. Does that make you feel better? Because I know that is why I used it, along with every one of my friends when we were all first married. The first advice we all received from all sides when we were newly engaged was to make that Dr.'s appointment first thing and get a prescription right away! And why almost no one understands when I say that I no longer use it. In fact, I only have 1 friend.....1 in all of my acquaintance who actually knows how I REALLY feel about this subject. And while she doesn't feel exactly the same way, she's the only one who knows, because she can respect it, and disagree with it without feeling threatened by it, and defensive of her own way of doing things....and the same goes for me in return. We discuss it always on friendly terms, and never feel judged by one another.

In fact, I think that the understanding that the application of this principle will look different for many families is the key to the difference between a vote for option #1, and a vote for option #3 in the poll. A vote for option #3 allows that while there is truth in the words of the prophets, the scriptures, and the current policy and that none negate the others, that every circumstance can't possibly be written out and defined for everyone to see. As long as we know that we are truly giving heed to the counsel given, and that "the Lord looketh on the heart" we're good. Which is why I feel it is perfectly okay to discuss this topic and not feel as though I'm judging anyone else.

We are expected to use our power to procreate in wisdom. For some people that will mean turning it over to the Lord and having as many children as He blesses you with. For others that will mean actively going through fertility treatments. For others it will be adopting. Still others will have periods of time where they will use birth control for a myriad of personal reasons.

Thank you very much...this is a very concise summation We all have different situations. everyone needs to take it to the Lord in fasting and prayer - and it is no one else's business.

My sister and her husband were castigated by various moms in my homeward in San Diego 25 years ago...she had to stop at 3 kids because of gestational diabetes which nearly killed her the last 2 times. At that time we had some 5-7 families in the ward with 6-10 kids...the woman I remember most that sneered at my sister..she only had 2 kids, but a nice house with a pool and 2 spoiled kids...then her husband divorced her...

HeirofNumenor wrote:

Fiannan wrote:

The reasons for later marriage is that men become addicted to pornography and they either feel to ashamed to pursue a good woman to marriage or they become so deeply involved with pornography and associated immoral behavior that they do not desire marriage.

This is a valid point and while maybe not the main or only reason, likely is a big part of a high percentage of situations. Porn or any other immorality - in either sex.

Gotta call for a reference on that. I have heard that many LDS men delay marriage because many young LDS gals want a lifestyle (big house, big car, etc.) when they are 22 even though it took their parents years to get the lifestyle these spoiled princesses grew up in. I have heard more than one LDS young male say that this is the reason LDS males often gravitate to non-members is that the non-member may come into the marriage with the assumption that if she wants the great lifestyle she is willing to work as well. Of course, the typical active LDS male hopes to convert the non-member.

I don't know how many women have told me that I am "perfect in every-way, but You don't have a great career/job/income, and I want to stay home with the kids, / my standard of living better not drop, you are nothing if by age 30 you do not have a nice house and making $100,000/year, etc..."

THAT is why it took me to age 40 to find someone to marry me...

I think these are all valid topics to be discussed... and I think we have a serious problem growing in the church because of these things. There are a lot of wonderful women and men in the church who are all imperfect and have their own struggles and burdens to bare but I think we do have a big problem with pornography and wanting life styles better then what is possible. I think really it all boils down to consecration and sacrifice and forgetting what we are all here to do. I feel for the young men who have to deal with princesses with high expectations and want all the things their parents have right away but I think there are problems on the other side as well because of pornography and some other things. I am a convert and not to bash anyone but one thing I have sometimes notices with Raised LDS woman is that some of these families have this notion that we have our roles and we stick to them. I myself have ALWAYS been very old fashioned and this is where I felt very at home in the church right away because I already felt like families are best served when husbands and wives work together in their perspective roles in the family and that there is nothing wrong with being dependent upon each other. But sometimes, In my own personal opinion I think this goes to far. For example in my husbands own family his mother works tirelessly in the home while the men just sit around and wait to be served. I always get this feeling that his dad thinks ok Ive been at work all day now its time to sit on the computer or watch some tv. Well we women work all day too weather at home or not but that doesn't seem to matter. Again, Im not trying to bash anyone but point out some serious things I think are a problem. I think part of the problem is also when moms do everything for their sons and then their sons have no idea how to do anything for themselves and they have this expectation that all women are alive to do is to serve everyone and that we love spending all of our time cleaning up and doing things for people. I have seen this a lot in homes but not all of them. In my house growing up regardless of weather you work outside the home or not EVERYONE pitches in at home and it made it a much nicer place to be. My dad was a fantastic cook and often helped with meals when my mom couldn't or was just plain exhausted. My mom also did some "men type" duties when it was needed. Personally with my kids boy or girl they are going to learn the basics of cooking and doing their own laundry and being self sufficient at home as well as in a career. I have seen men who would wait until their wives get home from various things or doing other things and say "Whats for dinner?" REALLY? You didn't eat ALL day long and waited for you wife to come in the door and ask whats for dinner? And the kids are all starving too? These are the kinds of stereotypes that can ruin family responsibilities and relationships. Also, Ive noticed that a lot of the men get so focussed on living a bachelor life style and they dont plan and prepare for families like a lot of the women do. They put off schooling and all sorts of things so that when they do get married so much is expected of their wives with little gratitude or appreciation. I grew up poor and working from a young age and I know what sacrifice is all about but I think some of the men can be just as bad in this area and visa versa. I know what its like to work and go to school full time and to be stressed every month not knowing how you are going to pay all the bills or what you are going to eat or how you are going to get from place to place and some men and woman dont even get what its like to live like that so they are very delusional about how hard it really is. Because they grew up so comfortably. Woman cant do all of the household chores, take care of the children, go out to work and worry about supporting her family while her husband is in school all at the same time and stay a sane stable person and the family and children suffer when too much or too little is expected of either parent. Wow, that was really long so I digress.... But clearly there are unrealistic expectations on both sides before people get married I think.

simple............if we counsel Father when and where He can send His children, is that evil?

sbsion wrote:simple............if we counsel Father when and where He can send His children, is that evil?

"Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works." (Jacob 4:10)

I think counseling with our Father in Heaven is great, as long as we make sure we're on the receiving end of the counsel and not the giving end. Too often I've found in my own life that I continue "counselling" long after an answer has been received if it is not the answer I was looking for. You know, kind of second guessing.

If we are sincerely seeking to understand and then comply with our Father's will, then we are on the right track. If we are seeking validation for our own wishes we can end up on shaky ground.

thebestsun: I agree with you.....to a point. Of course as mothers we need to teach our children to pitch in, help out and be responsible. To value hard work. From the Family Proclamation, "Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities." BUT I think that feminism has done us no favors in that it's taught women to always think "me, me, me!" When we're thinking of how tired we are, or that some lazy husband is sitting on his rear waiting to be served dinner, are we also thinking about what kind of day he may have had at work? Or what church responsibilities he may have to look forward to that evening? Every time I think about the fact that man....my husband will never have to clean a toilet again, and isn't that unfair? I turn around and think that on the flip side, man....I never have to work another day in my life again! Isn't that great?! Our responsibilities are different. The role of a mother is physically exhausting and demanding, but so can the husband's role be of providing. And again...we tend to think, oh he went to work today. Chalk up one point. But I did the dishes, the laundry, made dinner, and cleaned up. And let's see....that all adds up to fifty points. We don't tend to give them the benefit of itemizing out every detail of "went to work". We also don't often consider church callings, and the things our husbands do when at home. Yardwork, heavy lifting, etc.

My husband doesn't change a lot of diapers, and he almost never cooks, does the cleaning, etc. BUT, he is always willing to help out when asked. Another big thing. I think often we sit back and complain about not getting any help when we're not willing to ask for it. I think often we just need to be willing to be more like the Savior. More worried about what we personally can do better, than what someone else needs to be doing for us. I know I'm a happier person when I focus my thoughts that way.

I agree with you Katers on those points Wholeheartedly. Focusing on someone else never helps us grow. And its all about sacrifice, consecration, selflessness. I just felt the need to point out that its not just spoiled LDS woman that keep young men from getting married and that these things go both ways. And for your daughter in laws sakes you have to teach your boys some basics around the house. I have no problem mowing the lawn, taking our the trash, or taking the car in to be fixed and all sort of other things that are normally categorized as men jobs. And I have done plenty of it. There is a part in the Joseph Smith movie that always makes me laugh. Its where someone goes up to Joseph Smith and tells him he shouldn't be seen doing womens work and menial house chores. And Joseph sets him straight. I didnt mean to go on a men bashing parade either. Though I think perhaps I may have gotten a little carried away because some of these things hit a little to close to home for me. As I have witnessed a lot of double standards within and outside of the church for that matter. I am in no way shape or form a feminist. Never have been and never will be. I just am big on equality so I always have to present the other side of the coin. I have worked outside the home and gone to school and supported myself so in that respect I feel like I have an advantage over some in knowing how stressful it can be at work. But when I did those things I still came home to cook the dinner and do the house chores. In the beginning of my marriage I was the primary support for us while my husband went to school part time and worked a few hours a week. At one point I almost took up a second job because we didnt have enough money coming in and I did it until I was about 6 months pregnant. Now my husband is in school again part time and working full time now so I can be at home with our children. He knows how grateful I am for his sacrifices because I tell him everyday. I count myself as VERY blessed to be at home with the children and to have a husband who is willing to step up and make sacrifices and be responsible for his family. Its difficult for both of us. I dont like to talk too much about personal things and circumstances between my husband and I specifically and I would never bash him but he would also be the first to come right out and admit that he wasted a lot of years being addicted to playing computer games and other things and now regrets it more than he can say. I made the comittment to not try to force him to quit but to just let it run its coarse and so after getting placed on academic suspension and getting kicked out of school and other things he finally decided on his own that it was a problem. He kids around that he is on the ten year plan for his bachelors degree and we laugh about it but the truth is every choice we make effects not just ourselves but our families weather present or future. Over the past five years my husband and I both have learned and grown together and it has taken lots of love and patients on both sides. He is amazing and I cant imagine being with anyone but him and nor do I want to. But we have had to learn things the hard way sometimes. And the birth control issue is personal and I condemn no one for using it or not using it, but only thinking about ourselves is I think they key lesson here that the birth control issue brings up. And the issue which you Katers pointed out. :ymapplause:

if birth control is evil
so is timing it

so is abstinence too

maybe if we didn't encourage boys to go on missions, and sisters too, theyde be getting married more quickly

what if we spent t ome of the $300m spent on a better conference centre on subsidized child care in SLC......might that help some families struggling with money who desire to have more children

the comments on porn stopping families are beyond classic imo. I'm still waiting for the research.

basically ANY biologically capable sister having sex or not who is not married and pushing out babies is evil if one wants to apply a strict interpretation, which is what this and then 10 same threads that preceded this are telling us.

would all who said yes please answer this one


how many of the quorum of the 12, are biologically capable of having more children but re not and did not. i note Brigham Young and others in the past had no difficulty finding biologically capable women in years gone by, i though the commandment is quite clear, it so i am told here by many.

sec132 suggests multiple wives are a heavenly thing no. men can have multiple temple wives in this day no?

is someone going to tell me that a healthy widower LDS GA is not able to find a new partner that is still able to have children, if he wanted? or is he making a lifestyle choice?

so is it only evil if a biologically capable_woman_makes lifestyle choices to refuse an opportunity for gods spirits to enter a mortal tabernacle? or men under 40?

if birth control is a black and white lifestyle decision to limit children, how is a 70 year old man NOT looking to find a partner to near a child any less of an equally evil act?.

this is a slippery slope for finger waggers. and any less than 15 kids and in the main they must be hypocrites too.

AussieOi, I personally dont think that the use of birth control is in and of itself evil and I honestly dont care how other people choose to do it...none of my beeswax.. I know you were not talking to me directly or saying I believe one way or another I just felt like making my stance clear on that one. I do think that DOING or NOT DOING ANYTHING for SELFISH REASONS AND PURPOSES which we are probably all guilty of IS evil. That being said, I am curious as to why you dont think pornography has anything to do with young men not getting married or bad marriages? Or in your own words that you dont think porn stops families? Stops families in what way? Families from getting together, from procreating, from success? You will have to clarify that one a little more for be but I am curious as to why you dont see it as a deterrent? Especially when the Prophets and apostles have come out and stated that it is a destroyer of homes and families.

If this couple can raise 4 kids why can't any healthy LDS young couple?

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12/Le ... 50x300.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay, now let's see...why is the church against masturbation? It is never condemned in the Bible, nor do I think Joseph Smith or Brigham Young ever mentioned it. So why, may one ask, is it condemned nowadays? Obviously we know that there are no negative health consequences, in fact the opposite, so could it be because it distracts reproductive energies away from procreation? Perhaps if it were accepted then people would neglect marriage, or when marriage occured might engage in far fewer sexual activities with their partner and thus send the birth rate down?

On the average a woman in her 20s having sex three to four times a week without contraception will only wind up pregnant 20% of the time. If a woman gets artificial insemination during ovulation it will generally take 6 attempts (6 months) for her to conceive. So humans are not the most fertile of mammals. So if people, even married, were to settle on masturbation that cut their interpersonal encounters by half their lifetime reproductive rate could drop.

Aussie asks an interesting question about older men who are single (widowers) not trying to find a wife and get married. I have thought of that myself. When I was in my 20s I knew a lot of women in their late 20s who could not find a husband. When my former bishop's wife died of cancer he was in his early 50s (but looked a lot younger). Since he and his wife could only have one child I assumed he would marry a younger woman and have some more kids but he wound up marrying someone his age who was divorced with a lot of grown children. Seemed a waste to me, but hey, that's just me. Yet one wonders if he had married some 27 year old, who might have had 4 or 5 kids, what those offspring could have contributed to the Church. And as for older men my grandfather remarried after he became a widower at 63 (fathered 3 kids too). It could be assumed, however, that younger-looking men could get younger women -- probably for the best anyway since younger looking guys in old age have been shown to live longer than older-looking men of the same age cohort.

As for porn I think it is safe to say that for every "movie night" a couple might have -- despite their religion -- that results in a pregnancy, there is probably as many that don't conceive because of the reasons cited above in regards to masturbation. There is also a serious danger that you will see many more couples like the one I linked the picture to as porn entices more and more young women into same-sex experimentation that can lead to romantic pairing with someone of the same gender. And while many lesbians are having kids they generally only have two, which means usually only one woman gets AI and has the babies. Yet isn't it weird that when birth control came out and became mainstream in our western culture that is when doctors came up with more ways (perhaps through inspiration from God?) to help people get pregnant? Maybe it is so vital for spirits to come down that God is willing to see His spirits go into same-sex marriages than to have to wait around for LDS couples to decide if they are willing to sacrifice having a nicer home in order to have an extra baby or two.

thebestsun: I always get a chuckle over that part in the Joseph Smith movie as well. And hearing your story hits home for me as well.....I won't tell you all which parts, seeing as how my husband is also part of this forum, and many know who he is. To be fair, we both had our struggles, and once I picked up my end of the slack he did as well. I guess I just had to learn you catch more flies with honey. Funny how that works, huh?

Another thing I've noticed.....since we've accepted our "traditional" roles, we're both so much happier. There's a very good reason that things work so well that way. I think they help men and women feel more fulfilled in the ways they need than trying to do things the other way around.

And I certainly agree that if one is TRULY not being selfish, and truly trying to consecrate themselves to the Lord that they will be in harmony with the counsel given by the prophets, and the current policy....no matter how that looks on the outside.

I've heard it mentioned here that Heavenly Father is sending his spirits to gay couples because LDSs refuse to have them.

Well, don't you think if that were the reason, he'd instead choose to heal the thousands of couples who march through the doors of LDS Family Services every year hoping to adopt?

I think it's simply that we live in a Telestial world. It's no more complicated than that. Fertility treatments can benefit anyone who is willing to pay for the service. We have lots of tools here for our benefit which will be used for the purposes of those who use them... those purposes being good and evil depending on the person.

Hasn't it always been between the couple and the Lord? Who else would it be between? I trust God has a plan for the billions upon billions of children who have been born upon this earth to non-mormon families.

Hasn't it always been between the couple and the Lord? Who else would it be between?

The suggestion or implication is that the Church, and Church leaders should get involved, and give direction and tell people what they should do in this regard.

This much I know, the laws of nature and nature's God apply. With respect to procreation, we have complete liberty and free agency. What I have learned is that in terms of the Lord's Will, his highest priority is that His children will have and exercise their free agency regardless of the outcome and consequences. Free agency is the bedrock and foundation of the Plan of Salvation. And 99.9% of the time, the Lord does not intervene, and simply let's nature take its course.

The other thing to remember is that the Church has made a black and white policy statement that between legally and lawfully married couples, sexual intercourse is not only for the purpose of procreation. Based on that statement alone, a lot of conclusions can be drawn. If it were otherwise, the Lord and the Church would say the only time legally and lawfully wedded couples should engage in sexual intercourse is for the purpose of procreation. But since that isn't the case, as Aussie Oi says, anything and everything else that is done to avoid pregnancy despite having sexual intercourse, from timing to pills to condoms, is a form of birth control -- all tools that can be used for good or ill.

Even in terms of the whole concept of consecrating one's body, and fertility and health to the Lord for him to do with as He will, the general, blanket, one-size-fits-all statement that "birth control is generally evil" flies in the face of reason. Again, for the most part, the Lord's will is that his children will exercise their free agency to use all the tools and technology available as they feel guided by the Spirit, and let nature take its course. If that were not the case, then we could say the same sorts of things about our bodies and health generally -- "Let's just consecrate them to the Lord, and completely forget doctors, medicine, preventative and otherwise, along with everything else, and just leave it all to the Lord." Again, even if we consecrate ourselves, our time, our talents, bodies, and everything with which the Lord has blessed us, or may bless us, to the building up of His kingdom on earth, He still expects us to take action, make decisions, and do something. What we do is between us and the Lord.

ChelC wrote:I've heard it mentioned here that Heavenly Father is sending his spirits to gay couples because LDSs refuse to have them.

Well, don't you think if that were the reason, he'd instead choose to heal the thousands of couples who march through the doors of LDS Family Services every year hoping to adopt?

I think it's simply that we live in a Telestial world. It's no more complicated than that. Fertility treatments can benefit anyone who is willing to pay for the service. We have lots of tools here for our benefit which will be used for the purposes of those who use them... those purposes being good and evil depending on the person.

Well, when Brigham Young said that we should have as many children as we could (if healthy enough) he did make it clear that it was better for a spirit to be raised in a devout LDS family than in a more worldly situation.

Also, nobody catches the irony that in the 19th Century men were willing to stand up to the might of the US government so they could have 6 wives but today many LDS men are unwilling to strive to have six kids?

As for infertility that's a tough one. However, technology exists today that a woman unable to conceive can get a healthy and fertile woman to donate eggs to her. It is less expensive than adoption. If they guy is sterile then one can get insemination. I do not believe this technology is wrong in the least.

wolfman wrote:Hasn't it always been between the couple and the Lord? Who else would it be between? I trust God has a plan for the billions upon billions of children who have been born upon this earth to non-mormon families.

First, I love your picture wolfman. Im kind of a Space nerd. hehe. Ok not kind of. I am! And I agree with your statement as I was raised outside of an LDS home and I know it was no accident. I think we are all put in different families for different purposes to teach us different things and I really feel like I picked my family. I love them so much and I feel they are perfect for me. And also, I think Heavenly Father and I both knew that it didnt matter what family I went to LDS or non because I would find the Gospel. In my blessing it mentions something like this. And my husband always says that had he not grown up in the church he doesnt think he ever would have accepted it. Or found it for himself. We cant know for sure but I do know there are so many different reasons why we go were we go. I trust Him and His plan. He knows what He is doing without a doubt.

The first commandment ever given to man was to "multiply and replenish the earth". Being accurate, correct and informed on this issue is fundamental. If you are interested in an organized compilation on what the Lord has said on this subject please see this link: http://josephsmithforum.org/faqs/curren ... artlang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Thank you,
Joseph Smith Forum Editor

I think you aren't very familiar with infertility, Fiannan. It's true donor eggs can be bought, but it's also true that the majority of infertile couples are dealing with hormonal issues, not egg quality issues.

I'll use our case as an example. I don't ovulate, but it isn't because I don't have eggs or that the egg quality is an issue. My hormones are out of balance for reasons unexplained. You don't just pop in someone else's egg and have a baby. You have to balance your hormone's to a certain degree artificially to make it take. Usually a woman is just as well off trying to artificially trigger and harvest her own eggs. It's a very expensive process to purchase all the injectible medications necessary to trigger ovulation. They typically over stimulate your ovaries on purpose to harvest the most eggs. You have to have an endocrinologist harvest them and perform the in vitro procedure. It can cost thousands of dollars per cycle. Back when we looked into it the success rate was only about 10%. I imagine it's better now, but that's a huge financial sacrifice with no guarantees.

I remember reading about some of the hormone's they use having a possible eventual side effect if blindness. I'm already at risk for ovarian cancer because of the length of time they tried stimulating my ovaries.

That's a very simplified overview, but trust me, if it was as easy as you make it sound, we'd have more kids. I plead with Heavenly Father daily to open a door for us to have more be it through adoption, healing, or more treatments. So far the Spirit has us sitting tight!

Here's the most current estimate I could find. This doesn't appear to include donor costs.

"The average cost for one cycle of in vitro fertilization is around $12,400. Typically, this includes lab screenings for both parents, your ultrasound and other lab work, egg recovery, and embryo transfer.

Ovulation drugs and other medications may be extra. Also, if you opt to freeze some of your unused embryos for future use there is additional cost for freezing and storing. Sperm freezing and storage is also an additional fee.

Because there are so many possible fees involved, it is essential to get a breakdown of costs before electing this procedure so you don't have any surprises. Check with your insurance to see what fees they will cover, if any. The remaining costs may be financed by the clinic or other financing companies."

It looks like success rates reported are more like 30-35% these days. Most insurance does NOT cover infertility. Ours covered some, but because of the way they bill, it actually would cost MORE to run it through the insurance.

For comparison, our adoption from Guatemala cost $15,000. That was when the church had an international program. I'd say an average adoption is about $25,000.

Times that by the eight kids we're supposed to have and you've bought a second house!