LDS Freedom Forum

Jim Bob and Michell Duggar talk about their use of birth control, faith and life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjET8ToF8vI

tmac wrote:The bottom line it is a private matter, that is really no one else's business. What goes on in the marital bedroom, including BC, is between the parties and the Lord. Like ChelC says, it's not for us to judge.

Every sin we commit (other than very grievous ones that need priesthood assistance) is between us and the Lord. It's a private matter. It's no one else's business. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss what the prophets have said and determine the eternal principle involved, with every issue. This thread isn't about being holier than thou (though some can make it that way). It isn't to determine who uses BC and who doesn't, not to judge others, but to be judges ourselves, to interpret, in our opinion, what has been said on the topic. You can make the same argument (it's a private matter, no one else's business) about every other principle. We have what the Lord has said on such and such principle, and we have your own personal choices - and our own personal choices are between us and the Lord. We will all judged according the light we have, and the light that has been communicated. This discussion is more about interpreting "the light that has been communicated," in my opinion, and is therefore worthy of discussion, so that we may all be enlightened on determining what the Lord means. As long as we keep it in that Spirit and not point fingers at other's shortcomings.

I do find it interesting that the majority is choosing "No, the policy that says it is between the couple and the Lord trumps past statements," though not really, because to be honest, many I've spoken to about this have this position - because the prophets spoke out a lot about Birth Control, then just stopped and said it was between the couple and the Lord. It's not like they said, 40 years ago, it was evil, today it is okay. They just stopped talking about it and said, figure it out on your own. Since when does silence trump past statements? There is no contradiction, really. They were specific then, they just stopped being specific today. But those past statements are still there, they still stand. What has changed? I would say: the members, the world has changed, not the principle.

Not to dismiss this topic in any way because it is an important topic. Because so many choose selfishness over sacrifice and consecration and that is with MYSELF INCLUDED. I have my days when I think I am never having another child again and the next day might be different. I have to struggle with selfishness probably above anything else. But that being said, Im not really too concerned with how other people do this particular thing because its not my business. But as far as I myself goes... I dont really know exactly what the right answer is. I dont know all of the reasons why certain things happen and I am learning lately that there are lots of things that are not how I thought they were. Sometimes things happen to teach us lessons and help us grow and that includes so many different circumstances. There are many purposes and reasons for things and what is right for one person might very vastly for someone else.

ChelC wrote:Lol, I don't see anything judgmental in those comments, patriotsaint.

Just making sure I'm not misunderstood. This can be a super sensitive topic for many.

mattctr wrote:Jim Bob and Michell Duggar talk about their use of birth control, faith and life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjET8ToF8vI

They are fabulous, and very blessed.

ChelC wrote:

mattctr wrote:Jim Bob and Michell Duggar talk about their use of birth control, faith and life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjET8ToF8vI

They are fabulous, and very blessed.

I agree! I am impressed with Michelle's humility and faith.

ChelC wrote:It totally has to do with the topic. Does anyone here disagree that the counsel is have kids? I have seen no dissension. It seems you will not be happy until someone assures you that most people are sinners.

I'll make you happy.

ALL people are sinners.

your constant attempts to make yourself holier than everyone else is really getting tiresome.

these are totally different subjects no matter what your emotionalism tries to tell you

number of kids can be caused by any number of things and clearly health has been listed as an important factor.

this takes nothing away from the principle of right and wrong.

this is about principles not nimbers or exceptions

Mahonri wrote: your constant attempts to make yourself holier than everyone else is really getting tiresome.

these are totally different subjects no matter what your emotionalism tries to tell you

number of kids can be caused by any number of things and clearly health has been listed as an important factor.

this takes nothing away from the principle of right and wrong.

this is about principles not nimbers or exceptions

I'm very sorry you feel that way, Mahonri.

First society opened up Pandora's box when Christian leaders began to say divorce was okay. Then birth control was legalized in the early 1960s due to the modern interpretation of a "right to privacy." Then homosexuality was legalized under this same so-called right. Now alternative lifestyles are making their appearance and why not? Romans 1 clearly states that societies first reject God, then they reject family and then the people burn in lust to members of the same gender. If we divorce reproduction from sex your children will see sex as recreation...your grandchildren will extend that recreation to friends of both genders. Could this be why we are seeing an increase in the visibility of LDS young people declaring themselves gay nowadays?

Spencer W. Kimball: "The False Gods We Worship."

The Brethren constantly cry out against that which is intolerable in the sight of the Lord: against pollution of mind, body, and our surroundings; against vulgarity, stealing, lying, pride, and blasphemy; against fornication, adultery, homosexuality, and all other abuses of the sacred power to create; against murder and all that is like unto it; against all manner of desecration.

Notice that he says about "...all other abuses of the sacred power to create..." He lumps that in with adultery and homosexuality. One might interpret this to mean that artificial birth control is an attack on a God-given opportunity to bring forth blessings like unto Abraham. I hate to ask it in this way but I know lesbians who intend on someday getting artificial insemination and raising families. I know heterosexual women who have absolutely no intention to have kids. So which are following God's laws the most if we interpret something in the GHI as saying its all up to couples to choose?

Fiannan, I appreciate your discussion of Romans 1...will have to go read that.

Making an observation of what is said and done is not unrighteous judgement. Nor do I believe it is unrighteous judgement to look at a group as a whole and see that any command is not being followed as it should be. I did not say I knew the statistics, but even an outsider can look at the ward and easily see that the vast majority haven't followed that commandment simply by sheer numbers alone. I know there are some, perhaps many, who have no choice in the matter, but it is also not judgemental to realize that it isn't likely that that many are the exception to the rule. While many cannot have more than 1 or 4 and are living the commandment, going by averages, if the majority were trying to live this commandment there would be at least ONE 7 or 9 kid family, but as it sits there are only about 4 families with 5 kids (including mine, and some of those families old enough that the children are having their own families now) and our biggest family has 6. Perhaps my ward is worse than most, but I doubt it, and it isn't the only ward I've lived in. I haven't condemned those that would have more children if they could, nor have I judged each couple's situation or righteousness.

I also know, much like Katers, that WE are constantly judged and mocked because we have 5 children. In a community where less than 5% are members of the church, I've received maybe two or three comments from outside the church but hundreds from within --and it started when I had my THIRD child, not my 5th. It has been much worse than just a few rude comments but a full description of my "persecution" by members doesn't belong in this discussion. Many openly brag about using the reasoning and justifications we've specifically been told are wrong and then directly mock us for having more than 2-3 kids, then they are utterly disgusted that we might have more than the 5 we currently have. And these are generally the more prominent, temple-going, "good" members of our ward.

I personally know many, even leadership, that tell me they don't want to learn about these doctrines because then they might have to live them. We are judged by what we know, yes, but we are also commanded to learn and seek and follow the guidance of the spirit. We don't know exactly where and how that judgement will fall.

I don't know the circumstances of all individually and didn't say I did, but the vast majority of what I know of myself and the statistics, even without knowing the numbers, suggest that we as a people are not following this commandment and not only because we truly cannot. If you re-read what I said about that, I wasn't condemning people individually but stated that I thought it, like other doctrines in times past, was another example of the Brethren now being required to preach more in parables and by reference than by direct hellfire and damnation like they used to. I do not believe the doctrine has changed, but that our willingness to obey it has; That was my point.

CBrown

Thanks CBrown. Why won't anyone ever bug me about my 8 kids? I have always wanted to act like a moron, have them try to explain birth control to me, and then fire back with vengeance! Nobody says anything though.

ChelC wrote:

sbsion wrote:to "entertain" the thot of birth control, is "generally" wrong, EVEN with incest and rape...consider, Father won't send a child anywhere he doesn't want it

The official position doesn't appear to agree with you.

just because it's "official"...doesn't mean it is the Celestial answer

I wish I had that problem, Fiannan...count yourself lucky!

bbrown wrote: I don't know the circumstances of all individually and didn't say I did, but the vast majority of what I know of myself and the statistics, even without knowing the numbers, suggest that we as a people are not following this commandment and not only because we truly cannot. If you re-read what I said about that, I wasn't condemning people individually but stated that I thought it, like other doctrines in times past, was another example of the Brethren now being required to preach more in parables and by reference than by direct hellfire and damnation like they used to. I do not believe the doctrine has changed, but that our willingness to obey it has; That was my point.

CBrown

:ymblushing:
I didn't mean to single you out, though I guess I kind of did. I do take issue with that portion of your quote earlier, though I generally agree with what you're saying. I think sometimes we (and I include myself) learn about something and it's beautiful doctrine and we want to share it, and we tend to think too much in generalities and risk alienating a lot of people in the process. I'd say that currently I'm likely hypersensitive to it happening on the forum.

I've never participated in group discussion anywhere where I've seen as much judgment as here on this forum. I happen to be a part of the minority category frequently, so I find generalizations a bit loathsome. You don't absolutely believe the government orchestrated 911? You're IGNORANT, a FENCE SITTER, DECEIVED, EVIL, a TROLL. You've relied on prescription meds? You LACK FAITH, are LAZY, UNINFORMED. You include Santa Claus in your Christmas celebrations? You are a LIAR. You pay income tax? You are a COMMIE PIG. We have a lot of extremism and a lot of judgment happening here.

To the original point - is birth control generally evil? Well, since it simply is, my answer is no. Is the USE of birth control generally evil? Well, since the USE of it can be good or bad, again, my answer is no. If the question were changed to something more appropriate such as, is preventing pregnancy evil when the Lord has not approved it? Then you'd get a different answer from me.

I actually think that just because the current policy is to leave it between the Lord and the couple does not mean that it is anymore right than it has ever been, rather that it is very divisive and therefore not wisdom to judge/command each other in it.

just like eating meat?

Eh, I think people worry to much. My wife of necessity must take birth control for medical reasons, so we have to kind of plan when to have children. We plan on having as many kids as heavenly father will give to us and we aren't putting it off we are just in a unique situation. So I am confident in my ability to face my Savior on judgement day and happily respond to any questions regarding my reproductive activities. If you are doing the right thing don't worry about it.

Silas wrote:Eh, I think people worry to much.

) I don't know that they worry too much or just try to be involved in other people's business so they can find fault with them. I wonder what some people did to make themselves feel good about themselves before internet forums...

bbrown, I have heard it more than once that the only people who get really mean towards LDS families who have lots of kids are fellow LDS members. My social circle is, due to my work, quite left-leaning (not counting church members). I have been fortunate that in the last two wards i have been in I have not had any problems with anyone mocking my family size, but still, I have a theory about those who do attack members who strive to bring spirits into the world.

It may be Freudian, but there are concepts known as projection and reaction formation. The first involves feeling better by attacking someone else for doing something that the persecutor knows they do, or should do. the second involves believing something or being something but repressing that desire and attacking those who do express it. The members who know how they should be living, especially as it would require sacrifice, develop a hostility to those who do it. Few LDS have not been exposed to scriptures or statements by prophets condemning family limitation, so they become incredibly hostile to the ones who are doing something they know they should strive to do as well. I am sure there were members who mocked the members who left their homes behind in Nauvoo and went west.

Kinda a strange time period we are in. In the 80s the USA stood for freedom and Russia was a totalitarian state. That is reversed now.

And now that we have entered the 21st. Century gays want to get married and lesbians want to be mothers while Mormon men are avoiding marriage and Mormon couples are trying to find ways to avoid having kids and rationalize their decisions.

I really believe that if investigated closely we would find pornography to be one of the biggest reasons latter-day saints are marrying late, and possibly why children are being put off also. I am sure there are many other valid reasons and wanting to be "established" first is part of it. But I also feel like we don't understand just how pervasive pornography is among church members. I can certainly sympathize with a woman who is scared to bear children when her husband is addicted to pornography. Sexual immorality destroys families and I think a lot more of that is happening now that we often acknowledge.

Silas wrote:I really believe that if investigated closely we would find pornography to be one of the biggest reasons latter-day saints are marrying late, and possibly why children are being put off also. I am sure there are many other valid reasons and wanting to be "established" first is part of it. But I also feel like we don't understand just how pervasive pornography is among church members. I can certainly sympathize with a woman who is scared to bear children when her husband is addicted to pornography. Sexual immorality destroys families and I think a lot more of that is happening now that we often acknowledge.

There is a lot we can blame on pornography (i.e. women wanting their men to remove all their body hair, the whole female bi-sexual trend and more experimentation into weird stuff by couples) but less desire among LDS people to have large families anymore????

Not to defend porn but a few years ago a representative of the Christian party in Sweden wanted the stations that get funding from the state to play non-stop porn on Saturdays so as to get the birth rate up. My first thought was that it would have the opposite effect, but her contention was that it would put normally stressed out Swedes more into romantic moods. Also, testosterone levels for both sexes goes up upon viewing this stuff and that is positively associated with male and female fertility.

No, porn is not the reason for lower birth rates -- it is the ethic of materialism coupled with many members feeling out-of-place if they stick out in a crowd. Face it, sometimes we do not promote individual thought and actions enough, so we cause many of our young to grow up with a conformist attitude on life. That of course is positive towards fertility if you live in a heavily LDS area where everyone still tends to have large families (social norm) but if you are in what Utah people call "the mission field" then your area of reference will be white-bread middle-class America.

The reasons for later marriage is that men become addicted to pornography and they either feel to ashamed to pursue a good woman to marriage or they become so deeply involved with pornography and associated immoral behavior that they do not desire marriage. There are a great deal of addicted men who marry thinking that if they marry a beautiful girl and they are able to have sex often then they won't want to look at pornography. Those men are usually very disappointed and always return to their addictions. I would expect this to be at the neglect of their wife. Eventually the woman finds out what is happening and why should we expect her to want to procreate with such a man?

We are talking about latter day saints here not swedes. Pornography is not going to inspire a romantic evening, I have no doubt that it will create much less of those. And even if these couples are still having relations fairly regularly a lds girl is going to find birth control much more appealing when she can't trust her husband to be faithful to her. I don't care what people do with their body hair or weird bedroom stuff. That isn't the danger of pornography. The danger of pornography is that it destroys souls and it destroys families. I do believe that it is a major contributor to why LDS people are not marrying as early and often and why many are delaying children. Certainly it is part of why many are having unhappy marriages which contributes to not wanting children.

I have no doubt that there are many other contributing factors but I believe it would be unwise to ignore this. Materialism? yeah absolutely. Not wanting to be different from their neighbors? Yeah thats part of it too. But Pornography is causing much more damage than we are admitting.

ChelC wrote:While I can agree that there are likely many members who are putting off and preventing children without just cause, I'm really turned off by how much judgment is happening. I have personally known several families who've struggled with infertility privately, and been judged unrighteously during that time... many actually. My husband and I sometimes joked with people who seemed more nosey than caring that we just wanted a nice house or were saving for a boat.

Some of the same people on the forum who believe in the many pollutants in our food and environment which cause health issues, it seems would prefer to believe couples are worldly instead of experiencing problems.

I have also known people who've silently dealt with health problems such as molar pregnancies which require a long wait to conceive again to avoid cancer. I've known people whose husbands refused more children even though they desired them. I've known women forced to work by their husbands, or those simply having marital problems for whom the stress of a new baby would be a nail in the coffin.

But back to infertility... you simply don't always know. Because I walk that road and am open about it, I've had many people come to me privately and counsel with me about treatment and just vent their emotions. I would say most of them have mentioned being judged harshly by members of the church who rather than mind their own business, would prefer to assume the worst about people in their self righteousness.

I think that is why the church has declared it's between a couple and the Lord, not because they've capitulated. See my siggy, it applies.

If you are simply using birth control because it's what the world tells you, or for other selfish reason, repent. If you're doing your part, continue.

Let's lift and encourage and refrain from tearing down those who walk in innocence down a painful road some of are lucky enough never to taste the bitterness of.

Good job, Chel! :ymhug: I wouldn't want to be in your shoes and you probably wouldn't love being in mine. Both are very
hard and heartbreaking. We need to lift each other, not scrutinize and condemn. I honestly cannot stand this topic.