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The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 28th, 2011, 11:47 pm
by AshleyB
So, this topic was brought up on another thread and I thought we could talk about it more in a more appropriate place. But it was brought up that for example: Being hard on yourself and beating yourself up all the time is just another form of Pride or False Humility. And this just happens to be the BIGGEST thing I struggle with. And surprise! It stems from the root of all evil which is Pride.

We know that the most important thing we can do in this life to grow closer to God and rend the veil is to strip ourselves of Pride. But I discovered that Pride is a cunning thing. And so much so that it disguises itself so well that it can be hard to recognize. I never would have thought to link being hard on myself and impatient with Pride. But it makes soo much sense. So there in lies the purpose of this thread. To help us understand this further and recognize it even when it is carefully disguised. Please add anything you would like on this subject and any experiences that might enlighten. Thanks ahead of time... :)

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 12:01 am
by Original_Intent
Pride is a sin that you can't really monitor yourself on - as soon as you feel like you are gaining mastery over it...you lose!

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 12:04 am
by NoGreaterLove
The problem with having pride is that one can not see the pride within ones self because of pride. Thank goodness for the Holy Ghost who bears witness of the truth of all things!

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:11 am
by gclayjr
I always tell people that my greatest trait is my humility :)

But seriously this is a tough one because it is often hidden in our souls where we least expect to see it.

We seem content to think that bombastic people who overtly show disdain for their fellow men are the proud ones while we are not. It is too easy to be piously proud.

Regards,

George CLay

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:16 am
by Like
This is my favorite talk on pride:


Beware of Pride

President Ezra Taft Benson


My beloved brethren and sisters, I rejoice to be with you in another glorious general conference of the Church. How grateful I am for the love, prayers, and service of the devoted members of the Church throughout the world.

May I commend you faithful Saints who are striving to flood the earth and your lives with the Book of Mormon. Not only must we move forward in a monumental manner more copies of the Book of Mormon, but we must move boldly forward into our own lives and throughout the earth more of its marvelous messages.

This sacred volume was written for us—for our day. Its scriptures are to be likened unto ourselves. (See 1 Ne. 19:23.)

The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that the Book of Mormon is the “record of a fallen people.” (D&C 20:9.) Why did they fall? This is one of the major messages of the Book of Mormon. Mormon gives the answer in the closing chapters of the book in these words: “Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction.” (Moro. 8:27.) And then, lest we miss that momentous Book of Mormon message from that fallen people, the Lord warns us in the Doctrine and Covenants, “Beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites of old.” (D&C 38:39.)
I earnestly seek an interest in your faith and prayers as I strive to bring forth light on this Book of Mormon message—the sin of pride. This message has been weighing heavily on my soul for some time. I know the Lord wants this message delivered now.

In the premortal council, it was pride that felled Lucifer, “a son of the morning.” (2 Ne. 24:12–15; see also D&C 76:25–27; Moses 4:3.) At the end of this world, when God cleanses the earth by fire, the proud will be burned as stubble and the meek shall inherit the earth. (See 3 Ne. 12:5, 3 Ne. 25:1; D&C 29:9; JS—H 1:37; Mal. 4:1.)

Three times in the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord uses the phrase “beware of pride,” including a warning to the second elder of the Church, Oliver Cowdery, and to Emma Smith, the wife of the Prophet. (D&C 23:1; see also D&C 25:14; D&C 38:39.)

Pride is a very misunderstood sin, and many are sinning in ignorance. (See Mosiah 3:11; 3 Ne. 6:18.) In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin. Therefore, no matter how the world uses the term, we must understand how God uses the term so we can understand the language of holy writ and profit thereby. (See 2 Ne. 4:15; Mosiah 1:3–7; Alma 5:61.)

Most of us think of pride as self-centeredness, conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, or haughtiness. All of these are elements of the sin, but the heart, or core, is still missing.

The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means “hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.” It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of “my will and not thine be done.” As Paul said, they “seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.” (Philip. 2:21.)

Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled. (See Alma 38:12; 3 Ne. 12:30.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. (See Hel. 12:6.) They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers. The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren’t interested in changing their opinions to agree with God’s.

Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)

In the pre-earthly council, Lucifer placed his proposal in competition with the Father’s plan as advocated by Jesus Christ. (See Moses 4:1–3.) He wished to be honored above all others. (See 2 Ne. 24:13.) In short, his prideful desire was to dethrone God. (See D&C 29:36; D&C 76:28.)

The scriptures abound with evidences of the severe consequences of the sin of pride to individuals, groups, cities, and nations. “Pride goeth before destruction.” (Prov. 16:18.) It destroyed the Nephite nation and the city of Sodom. (See Moro. 8:27; Ezek. 16:49–50.)

It was through pride that Christ was crucified. The Pharisees were wroth because Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, which was a threat to their position, and so they plotted His death. (See John 11:53.)

Saul became an enemy to David through pride. He was jealous because the crowds of Israelite women were singing that “Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.” (1 Sam. 18:6–8.)

The proud stand more in fear of men’s judgment than of God’s judgment. (See D&C 3:6–7; D&C 30:1–2; D&C 60:2.) “What will men think of me?” weighs heavier than “What will God think of me?”

King Noah was about to free the prophet Abinadi, but an appeal to his pride by his wicked priests sent Abinadi to the flames. (See Mosiah 17:11–12.) Herod sorrowed at the request of his wife to behead John the Baptist. But his prideful desire to look good to “them which sat with him at meat” caused him to kill John. (Matt. 14:9; see also Mark 6:26.)

Fear of men’s judgment manifests itself in competition for men’s approval. The proud love “the praise of men more than the praise of God.” (John 12:42–43.) Our motives for the things we do are where the sin is manifest. Jesus said He did “always those things” that pleased God. (John 8:29.) Would we not do well to have the pleasing of God as our motive rather than to try to elevate ourselves above our brother and outdo another?

Some prideful people are not so concerned as to whether their wages meet their needs as they are that their wages are more than someone else’s. Their reward is being a cut above the rest. This is the enmity of pride.

When pride has a hold on our hearts, we lose our independence of the world and deliver our freedoms to the bondage of men’s judgment. The world shouts louder than the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. The reasoning of men overrides the revelations of God, and the proud let go of the iron rod. (See 1 Ne. 8:19–28; 1 Ne. 11:25; 1 Ne. 15:23–24.)

Pride is a sin that can readily be seen in others but is rarely admitted in ourselves. Most of us consider pride to be a sin of those on the top, such as the rich and the learned, looking down at the rest of us. (See 2 Ne. 9:42.) There is, however, a far more common ailment among us—and that is pride from the bottom looking up. It is manifest in so many ways, such as faultfinding, gossiping, backbiting, murmuring, living beyond our means, envying, coveting, withholding gratitude and praise that might lift another, and being unforgiving and jealous.

Disobedience is essentially a prideful power struggle against someone in authority over us. It can be a parent, a priesthood leader, a teacher, or ultimately God. A proud person hates the fact that someone is above him. He thinks this lowers his position.

Selfishness is one of the more common faces of pride. “How everything affects me” is the center of all that matters—self-conceit, self-pity, worldly self-fulfillment, self-gratification, and self-seeking.

Pride results in secret combinations which are built up to get power, gain, and glory of the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22–23; Moses 5:31.) This fruit of the sin of pride, namely secret combinations, brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations and has been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See Ether 8:18–25.)

Another face of pride is contention. Arguments, fights, unrighteous dominion, generation gaps, divorces, spouse abuse, riots, and disturbances all fall into this category of pride.

Contention in our families drives the Spirit of the Lord away. It also drives many of our family members away. Contention ranges from a hostile spoken word to worldwide conflicts. The scriptures tell us that “only by pride cometh contention.” (Prov. 13:10; see also Prov. 28:25.)

The scriptures testify that the proud are easily offended and hold grudges. (See 1 Ne. 16:1–3.) They withhold forgiveness to keep another in their debt and to justify their injured feelings.

The proud do not receive counsel or correction easily. (See Prov. 15:10; Amos 5:10.) Defensiveness is used by them to justify and rationalize their frailties and failures. (See Matt. 3:9; John 6:30–59.)

The proud depend upon the world to tell them whether they have value or not. Their self-esteem is determined by where they are judged to be on the ladders of worldly success. They feel worthwhile as individuals if the numbers beneath them in achievement, talent, beauty, or intellect are large enough. Pride is ugly. It says, “If you succeed, I am a failure.”

If we love God, do His will, and fear His judgment more than men’s, we will have self-esteem.

Pride is a damning sin in the true sense of that word. It limits or stops progression. (See Alma 12:10–11.) The proud are not easily taught. (See 1 Ne. 15:3, 7–11.) They won’t change their minds to accept truths, because to do so implies they have been wrong.

Pride adversely affects all our relationships—our relationship with God and His servants, between husband and wife, parent and child, employer and employee, teacher and student, and all mankind. Our degree of pride determines how we treat our God and our brothers and sisters. Christ wants to lift us to where He is. Do we desire to do the same for others?

Pride fades our feelings of sonship to God and brotherhood to man. It separates and divides us by “ranks,” according to our “riches” and our “chances for learning.” (3 Ne. 6:12.) Unity is impossible for a proud people, and unless we are one we are not the Lord’s. (See Mosiah 18:21; D&C 38:27; D&C 105:2–4; Moses 7:18.)

Think of what pride has cost us in the past and what it is now costing us in our own lives, our families, and the Church.

Think of the repentance that could take place with lives changed, marriages preserved, and homes strengthened, if pride did not keep us from confessing our sins and forsaking them. (See D&C 58:43.)

Think of the many who are less active members of the Church because they were offended and their pride will not allow them to forgive or fully sup at the Lord’s table.

Think of the tens of thousands of additional young men and couples who could be on missions except for the pride that keeps them from yielding their hearts unto God. (See Alma 10:6; Hel. 3:34–35.)

Think how temple work would increase if the time spent in this godly service were more important than the many prideful pursuits that compete for our time.

Pride affects all of us at various times and in various degrees. Now you can see why the building in Lehi’s dream that represents the pride of the world was large and spacious and great was the multitude that did enter into it. (See 1 Ne. 8:26, 33; 1 Ne. 11:35–36.)

Pride is the universal sin, the great vice. Yes, pride is the universal sin, the great vice.

The antidote for pride is humility—meekness, submissiveness. (See Alma 7:23.) It is the broken heart and contrite spirit. (See 3 Ne. 9:20; 3 Ne. 12:19; D&C 20:37; D&C 59:8; Ps. 34:18; Isa. 57:15; Isa. 66:2.) As Rudyard Kipling put it so well:

The tumult and the shouting dies;
The captains and the kings depart.
Still stands thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget.
(Hymns, 1985, no. 80.)

God will have a humble people. Either we can choose to be humble or we can be compelled to be humble. Alma said, “Blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble.” (Alma 32:16.)

Let us choose to be humble.

We can choose to humble ourselves by conquering enmity toward our brothers and sisters, esteeming them as ourselves, and lifting them as high or higher than we are. (See D&C 38:24; D&C 81:5; D&C 84:106.)

We can choose to humble ourselves by receiving counsel and chastisement. (See Jacob 4:10; Hel. 15:3; D&C 63:55; D&C 101:4–5; D&C 108:1; D&C 124:61, 84; D&C 136:31; Prov. 9:8.)

We can choose to humble ourselves by forgiving those who have offended us. (See 3 Ne. 13:11, 14; D&C 64:10.)

We can choose to humble ourselves by rendering selfless service. (See Mosiah 2:16–17.)

We can choose to humble ourselves by going on missions and preaching the word that can humble others. (See Alma 4:19; Alma 31:5; Alma 48:20.)

We can choose to humble ourselves by getting to the temple more frequently.

We can choose to humble ourselves by confessing and forsaking our sins and being born of God. (See D&C 58:43; Mosiah 27:25–26; Alma 5:7–14, 49.)
We can choose to humble ourselves by loving God, submitting our will to His, and putting Him first in our lives. (See 3 Ne. 11:11; 3 Ne. 13:33; Moro. 10:32.)

Let us choose to be humble. We can do it. I know we can.

My dear brethren and sisters, we must prepare to redeem Zion. It was essentially the sin of pride that kept us from establishing Zion in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith. It was the same sin of pride that brought consecration to an end among the Nephites. (See 4 Ne. 1:24–25.)

Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion.

We must cleanse the inner vessel by conquering pride. (See Alma 6:2–4; Matt. 23:25–26.)

We must yield “to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” put off the prideful “natural man,” become “a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord,” and become “as a child, submissive, meek, humble.” (Mosiah 3:19; see also Alma 13:28.)

That we may do so and go on to fulfill our divine destiny is my fervent prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:20 am
by mattctr
The scriptures can teach us a lot about pride and humility, and I also recommend C. Terry Warner's Bonds That Make Us Free. It has some great concepts on how we can recognize pride within ourselves. Warner's thoughts were quoted by Elder Maxwell in various BYU devotionals over the years.

In our culture, we tend to marginalize our ability to recognize humility within ourselves by making it seem ever-elusive like a slippery bar of soap, and I still feel there is some truth to that common axiom. However, I think we can learn how to recognize humility within ourselves without instantly surrendering it. Christ said, "For I am meek and lowly in heart" without suddenly becoming less so. This gives me hope that we can improve our humility quotient, recognize it, and continue humbly moving forward with a gratitude for that blessed state. Will we be perfect in this? Probably not during mortality, but I think we can come pretty close. I've met people who were humble and knew it without losing it. They did not brag or boast of themselves, but they did express gratitude and glory in their God.
Can you look back on your life and recognize a pattern of growing humility, notwithstanding areas of pride that may still exist?
How have you grown humility in the past?
What sacrifices helped you to humble yourself?
What might you do to further humble yourself and overcome areas where pride still lingers?

I think the study of humility is essential in order to obey the command to humble ourselves that we need not be humbled by the Lord. Focusing on humility: how to recognize it, obtain it, grow it, and possess it as a gift and powerful antidote to pride is not a bad idea. Obviously, we need to set little "warning flags" to alert us to pride, but can we also strive to reach a point where we can be like Christ and be okay with saying to ourselves "I am meek and lowly in heart" without it being a false statement or complaint? I hope so.

Okay, I've been rambling here... I'm not sure I agree with everything I just typed, so feel free to disagree or pick it apart. It was just something that I've stewed on a little because I've always been in the "once you have it you lose it" camp, but I might've been wrong to assert that as doctrine.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:25 am
by Like
Another goody:

Pride and the Priesthood

Dieter F. Uchtdorf



My dear brothers, thank you for assembling all around the world for this priesthood session of general conference. Your presence shows your commitment to stand, wherever you are, with your brothers who bear the holy priesthood and serve and honor your Lord and Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Often we mark the span of our lives by events that leave imprints on our minds and hearts. There are many such events in my life, one of which happened in 1989 when I heard a timeless sermon by President Ezra Taft Benson, “Beware of Pride.” In the introduction it was noted that this topic had been weighing heavily on President Benson’s soul for some time.

I have felt a similar burden during the past months. The promptings of the Holy Spirit have urged me to add my voice as another witness to President Benson’s message delivered 21 years ago.

Every mortal has at least a casual if not intimate relationship with the sin of pride. No one has avoided it; few overcome it. When I told my wife that this would be the topic of my talk, she smiled and said, “It is so good that you talk about things you know so much about.”

Other Meanings of Pride

I also remember one interesting side effect of President Benson’s influential talk. For a while it almost became taboo among Church members to say that they were “proud” of their children or their country or that they took “pride” in their work. The very word pride seemed to become an outcast in our vocabulary.

In the scriptures we find plenty of examples of good and righteous people who rejoice in righteousness and at the same time glory in the goodness of God. Our Heavenly Father Himself introduced His Beloved Son with the words “in whom I am well pleased.”

Alma gloried in the thought that he might “be an instrument in the hands of God.” The Apostle Paul gloried in the faithfulness of members of the Church. The great missionary Ammon gloried in the success he and his brothers had experienced as missionaries.

I believe there is a difference between being proud of certain things and being prideful. I am proud of many things. I am proud of my wife. I am proud of our children and grandchildren.

I am proud of the youth of the Church, and I rejoice in their goodness. I am proud of you, my dear and faithful brethren. I am proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you as a bearer of the holy priesthood of God.

Pride Is the Sin of Self-Elevation

So what is the difference between this kind of feeling and the pride that President Benson called “the universal sin”? Pride is sinful, as President Benson so memorably taught, because it breeds hatred or hostility and places us in opposition to God and our fellowmen. At its core, pride is a sin of comparison, for though it usually begins with “Look how wonderful I am and what great things I have done,” it always seems to end with “Therefore, I am better than you.”

When our hearts are filled with pride, we commit a grave sin, for we violate the two great commandments. Instead of worshipping God and loving our neighbor, we reveal the real object of our worship and love—the image we see in the mirror.

Pride is the great sin of self-elevation. It is for so many a personal Rameumptom, a holy stand that justifies envy, greed, and vanity. In a sense, pride is the original sin, for before the foundations of this earth, pride felled Lucifer, a son of the morning “who was in authority in the presence of God.” If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well?

Pride Has Many Faces

Pride is a deadly cancer. It is a gateway sin that leads to a host of other human weaknesses. In fact, it could be said that every other sin is, in essence, a manifestation of pride.

This sin has many faces. It leads some to revel in their own perceived self-worth, accomplishments, talents, wealth, or position. They count these blessings as evidence of being “chosen,” “superior,” or “more righteous” than others. This is the sin of “Thank God I am more special than you.” At its core is the desire to be admired or envied. It is the sin of self-glorification.

For others, pride turns to envy: they look bitterly at those who have better positions, more talents, or greater possessions than they do. They seek to hurt, diminish, and tear down others in a misguided and unworthy attempt at self-elevation. When those they envy stumble or suffer, they secretly cheer.

The Laboratory of Sports

Perhaps there is no better laboratory to observe the sin of pride than the world of sports. I have always loved participating in and attending sporting events. But I confess there are times when the lack of civility in sports is embarrassing. How is it that normally kind and compassionate human beings can be so intolerant and filled with hatred toward an opposing team and its fans?

I have watched sports fans vilify and demonize their rivals. They look for any flaw and magnify it. They justify their hatred with broad generalizations and apply them to everyone associated with the other team. When ill fortune afflicts their rival, they rejoice.

Brethren, unfortunately we see today too often the same kind of attitude and behavior spill over into the public discourse of politics, ethnicity, and religion.

My dear brethren of the priesthood, my beloved fellow disciples of the gentle Christ, should we not hold ourselves to a higher standard? As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children.

We Must Not Inhale

When I was called as a General Authority, I was blessed to be tutored by many of the senior Brethren in the Church. One day I had the opportunity to drive President James E. Faust to a stake conference. During the hours we spent in the car, President Faust took the time to teach me some important principles about my assignment. He explained also how gracious the members of the Church are, especially to General Authorities. He said, “They will treat you very kindly. They will say nice things about you.” He laughed a little and then said, “Dieter, be thankful for this. But don’t you ever inhale it.”

That is a good lesson for us all, brethren, in any calling or life situation. We can be grateful for our health, wealth, possessions, or positions, but when we begin to inhale it—when we become obsessed with our status; when we focus on our own importance, power, or reputation; when we dwell upon our public image and believe our own press clippings—that’s when the trouble begins; that’s when pride begins to corrupt.

There are plenty of warnings about pride in the scriptures: “Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.”

The Apostle Peter warned that “God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.” 11 Mormon explained, “None is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart.” 12 And by design, the Lord chooses “the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.” The Lord does this to show that His hand is in His work, lest we “trust in the arm of flesh.”

We are servants of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We are not given the priesthood so that we can take our bows and bask in praise. We are here to roll up our sleeves and go to work. We are enlisted in no ordinary task. We are called to prepare the world for the coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We seek not our own honor but give praise and glory to God. We know that the contribution we can make by ourselves is small; nevertheless, as we exercise the power of the priesthood in righteousness, God can cause a great and marvelous work to come forth through our efforts. We must learn, as Moses did, that “man is nothing” by himself but that “with God all things are possible.”

Jesus Christ Is the Perfect Example of Humility

In this, as in all things, Jesus Christ is our perfect example. Whereas Lucifer tried to change the Father’s plan of salvation and obtain honor for himself, the Savior said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” 17 Despite His magnificent abilities and accomplishments, the Savior was always meek and humble.

Brethren, we hold “the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God.” It is the power God has granted to men on earth to act for Him. In order to exercise His power, we must strive to be like the Savior. This means that in all things we seek to do the will of the Father, just as the Savior did. It means that we give all glory to the Father, just as the Savior did. It means that we lose ourselves in the service of others, just as the Savior did.

Pride is a switch that turns off priesthood power. Humility is a switch that turns it on.

Be Humble and Full of Love

So how do we conquer this sin of pride that is so prevalent and so damaging? How do we become more humble?

It is almost impossible to be lifted up in pride when our hearts are filled with charity. “No one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love.” When we see the world around us through the lens of the pure love of Christ, we begin to understand humility.

Some suppose that humility is about beating ourselves up. Humility does not mean convincing ourselves that we are worthless, meaningless, or of little value. Nor does it mean denying or withholding the talents God has given us.
We don’t discover humility by thinking less of ourselves; we discover humility by thinking less about ourselves. It comes as we go about our work with an attitude of serving God and our fellowman.

Humility directs our attention and love toward others and to Heavenly Father’s purposes. Pride does the opposite. Pride draws its energy and strength from the deep wells of selfishness. The moment we stop obsessing with ourselves and lose ourselves in service, our pride diminishes and begins to die.

My dear brethren, there are so many people in need whom we could be thinking about instead of ourselves. And please don’t ever forget your own family, your own wife. There are so many ways we could be serving. We have no time to become absorbed in ourselves.

I once owned a pen that I loved to use during my career as an airline captain. By simply turning the shaft, I could choose one of four colors. The pen did not complain when I wanted to use red ink instead of blue. It did not say to me, “I would rather not write after 10:00 p.m., in heavy fog, or at high altitudes.” The pen did not say, “Use me only for important documents, not for the daily mundane tasks.” With greatest reliability it performed every task I needed, no matter how important or insignificant. It was always ready to serve.

In a similar way we are tools in the hands of God. When our heart is in the right place, we do not complain that our assigned task is unworthy of our abilities. We gladly serve wherever we are asked. When we do this, the Lord can use us in ways beyond our understanding to accomplish His work.

Let me conclude with words from President Ezra Taft Benson’s inspired message of 21 years ago:

“Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion.

“We must cleanse the inner vessel by conquering pride. …

“We must yield ‘to the enticings of the Holy Spirit,’ put off the prideful ‘natural man,’ become ‘a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord,’ and become ‘as a child, submissive, meek, humble.’ …

“God will have a humble people. … ‘Blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble.’ …

“Let us choose to be humble. We can do it. I know we can.”

My beloved brethren, let us follow the example of our Savior and reach out to serve rather than seeking the praise and honor of men. It is my prayer that we will recognize and root out unrighteous pride in our hearts and that we will replace it with “righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, [and] meekness.”
In the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:30 am
by Like
I have enjoyed reading this piece from time to time:
“If Any Man Offend Not”

By Denise Turner


The giving or taking of offense can be avoided if we exercise charity in our relationships with others.When my sister was in the Young Women program, she, like many girls then and now, enjoyed talking with her friends and being silly whenever she had a chance. On one occasion a teacher finally got fed up and told her, “Leave the class and don’t come back until you can behave.” My sister left and never did come back. That was 30 years ago.

As Proverbs 18:19 [Prov. 18:19] reminds us, “A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city.” It is so easy to offend someone—and so dangerous! The Apostle Paul, knowing how a thoughtless action or comment could affect a member’s attitude about the Church, urged us to give “no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed” (2 Cor. 6:3).

It often seems difficult to offer suggestions or opinions without being pushy, even insulting to an extent. When I was a young mother, someone recommended a gospel-oriented music tape to me. Her words were, “If you love your children, you’ll get them this tape.” I interpreted this to mean that, in her opinion, if I chose not to get it, I must not be a good mother. This was insulting to me, and I deliberately and spitefully avoided getting the tape, which I later found to be quite good.

Some years ago a college student who was an acquaintance of mine joined the Church over the objections of her parents. They had threatened to disown her, but she was patient and loving and continued in the family tradition of wearing a small cross necklace. When a Church member sternly corrected her for wearing it, the comments brought her to tears.

Counsel can be given with gentleness and tact. Phrases such as “I have found that … ,” “I believe that … ,” or “Some people find it helpful to …” may be useful or appropriate. Contrast these phrases with expressions such as “Anyone with any sense knows …” or “Good Latter-day Saints always do it this way.” How true is Proverbs 21:23 [Prov. 21:23]: “Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles”!

James expressed it well when he wrote, “For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body” (James 3:2). We may all nod our heads at his insight, but what are we to do? Even though we may try our best, we are not perfect, and from time to time we may offend someone, despite our well-intentioned efforts. Because of this, I am so grateful for repentance. Through it the Lord will forgive us for our mistakes, and we can ask for forgiveness from others as well.

This leads us to the other side of the issue: we have a responsibility to avoid taking offense and to freely forgive, even when we have not been asked to do so. One of the most frequently reported reasons for Church inactivity is “Someone offended me.” We need to exercise patience with others. If we allow ourselves to be offended, any excuse will do. This calls to mind the Lord’s words, “They … make a man an offender for a word” (2 Ne. 27:32).

Even though most of us do not look for offenses, we are likely to get our feelings hurt at some time. I recall a painful incident many years ago when I had two of my children, one a toddler and the other an infant, with me during Relief Society. At one point in the meeting my baby needed my attention, and the toddler, too young for nursery, became jealous. He started pestering and then hitting me. I felt frustrated but tried to deal with him quietly.

A few days later the bishop spoke with me privately. One of the sisters in Relief Society had come to him, concerned because I wasn’t controlling my children properly, and had cited the previous incident.

My face turned red, and my heart pounded. How dare she! I thought. What right does she have to judge me? If she didn’t like what was going on, why didn’t she offer to help? Mentally I went on and on. I didn’t know who the complainer was, but my mind searched for someone to blame. I pictured various people who might have been the cause of my embarrassment and then concluded, If that’s how they feel, I just won’t go to Relief Society.

I soon recognized Satan’s tool for what it was and remembered a statement I myself had repeated to others: “The Church is true, even if the members sometimes make mistakes.” Although my embarrassment and resentment lingered for a few weeks, I didn’t miss any Relief Society meetings.

If you feel offended by another’s words or actions, you might try to see the situation from the other person’s point of view. Did he or she really mean to hurt, or was it a mistake with innocent motives? Forgiving the other person at this point will save much pain and worry. I have adopted the philosophy that usually people try to do what is right. They should be given credit for their intentions, not for the unintended outcome.

Regrettably, there are times when others’ motives are not entirely innocent. This may particularly cause pain and confusion when the offender’s actions seem to contradict the religion he or she espouses; yet even in these difficult situations we are not justified in nursing our anger or turning away from the Church. President Stephen L Richards, First Counselor to President David O. McKay, said, “Does one offense wipe out another? Does weakness in one, even one who has been given a testimony of the truth, justify transgression of the law or failure to listen to its precepts?” (“Encouragement for Repenters,” Improvement Era, June 1956, 398). Our testimonies must be based on Jesus Christ, not on imperfect and fallible individuals.

In the scriptures the Lord provides counsel on the subject: “And if thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone; and if he or she confess thou shalt be reconciled” (D&C 42:88).

Because we live in a mortal world, not every situation may be resolved satisfactorily, even after we have done all we can. Perfect justice is not always to be found in this life, yet it will be found in the next. In his Sermon on the Mount the Savior instructed, “And him who taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. For it is better that thou suffer thine enemy to take these things, than to contend with him. Verily I say unto you, Your heavenly Father who seeth in secret, shall bring that wicked one into judgment”(JST, Luke 6:29–30). This counsel does not absolve us of our responsibility to take appropriate action when action is needed, but it assures us that the Lord is perfectly aware of every situation and that ultimately justice lies in his hands.

Certainly the Lord does not wish us to harbor grudges. The unforgiving soul suffers more mentally, spiritually, and even physically than the offender and is unable to progress in these circumstances.

I found myself in this situation one day several years ago. My attempts to see the other person’s point of view had not succeeded, and I was still feeling bitter hours later as I went to bed. I did not feel like praying or reading the scriptures and decided to go right to sleep. But even though I was tired and the hour was late, my mind would not slow down, and I kept reviewing my injury. I also felt guilty for not reading and praying, so I decided to open the Book of Mormon at random and read a scripture. My eyes went automatically to verses 46–48 of Moroni 7, which I had previously shaded with a red pencil. There was the answer to my problem:

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

“But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.”

I had to say “Amen” with Moroni. I understood his message to me, and the problem was resolved. I was then able to sincerely pray for charity, give thanks for the scriptures, and forgive the offender.

I know from my own experience that it is easy to give and take offense, despite good intentions. But when such offenses occur, we need not let them stay. Kindness, repentance, forgiveness, and charity can help us over the rough places in our relationships with our brothers and sisters.




Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:33 am
by AshleyB
I agree.... Not all that long ago I used to tell myself that "at least Im not Prideful." :)) I think one good hint might be when you think you arent? lol I mean I think there are definitely periods in our lives when we dont have it so much but for me its hard to stay that way for long. I guess the only way to really strip ourselves of it Is to pray and read the scriptures. Being obedient also never hurts.

For example: A while ago my hubby and I started to have sort of an argument. We are still newly weds. We will be married four years in June. So we are still learning lots about each other. But, we started to have some argument about something. I sometimes get upset when hes got a bad attitude about scripture study and things like that. Most the time I just try to be patient, but of course my Pride gets in the way other times. Suddenly in the middle of our conversation I became really angry and at that point I knew I just needed to walk away so that I didnt say anything more to hurt Him then I already had. I went up stairs to our room and felt the prompting to pray. At that moment prayer was the last thing I "felt" like doing but I knew that was all the more reason that I needed to do it. So I did. I even remember repenting and telling the Lord I was sorry for not being more heart felt during my prayer but that I was having a hard time feeling anything good. During the prayer I asked the Lord to forgive me and help me to have charity towards my husband and to be patient with him. I remember as soon as I said it, its like I felt all the anger and bad feelings melt away and suddenly I was happy and ashamed too that I had lost my patience. So I went down stairs....slowly...lol... and went to apologize and as soon as I looked at him I started laughing and so did he. I was embarrassed because I knew I had acted badly. So I asked for his forgiveness and tried to explain where the hurt feelings came from so he could understand. And he did! It was good.

Early in our marriage I probably would have just sat in our room and stayed angry for a while and thought poor me, why dont I have a husband who cares about the gospel? So it was another growing experience and I realized that its easy to just blame the other person sometimes and then we lose out on an opportunity to examine ourselves. I was not raised a member and come from a family where people never tried to filter things they said, so since joining the church Ive had to fight against old taught behaviors a lot. Ive come pretty far but I discovered I still have a long way to go until Ive overcome it. Im so grateful to have a husband who is such a good example of patience and a Heavenly Father who is willing to help me look at myself.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 9:55 am
by AshleyB
Those are extremely good points. Studying Humility and how a humble person acts is definitely a good way to counter Pride. Amazing talks! Thanks for posting them ...

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 11:11 am
by Rand
Pride is indeed a perverse state of mind. Here are a few thoughts I have had on pride through the years.
Humility asks questions. Pride states opinions.

Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need.
Kahlil Gibran

President Grant once said something that rather startled me. He said he had heard of men who declared that they had had a personal visitation from the Lord. And then President Grant added, "Some of those who had that experience lost their testimonies. It seemed that they became puffed up in the pride of their hearts, perhaps thinking that they were more special to the Lord than others who had not received the same experience." Be Loyal to the Royal Within You HAROLD B. LEE

Our desire to heal must be centered on building the kingdom of God, which means perfecting ourselves, not on ending our suffering. When our focus is on ending our suffering, we are prideful in our approach. The key to unresolved Healing is either faithfully seeking God’s will or repentance.

If we struggle against our weaknesses, they will keep humbling us. When we begin to struggle against our pride, our weak things will become strong. Ether 12:27

All stress is the result of expectation unmet. Expectations are the result of pride. Pride leads to wickedness.

Our talents are given for the benefit of others, not ourselves. We can benefit our families, our neighbors, Zion, our enemies or the stranger; but as soon as we set out to reap the benefits of our talents personally, we start to live under the shadow of pride, and our trial of adversity is set in stone.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 11:21 am
by Like
Here is another favorite of mine:
Agency and Anger

Lynn G. Robbins

“I have a family here on earth. They are so good to me.” This is the hope of every child expressed in the words of one of our hymns (“Families Can Be Together Forever,” Hymns, no. 300; emphasis added).

We learn in the proclamation on the family that “the family is central to the Creator’s plan” and that “husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other” and a “sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).

The family is also Satan’s primary target. He is waging war on the family. One of his schemes is the subtle and cunning way he has of sneaking behind enemy lines and entering our very homes and lives.

He damages and often destroys families within the walls of their own homes. His strategy is to stir up anger between family members. Satan is the “father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another” (3 Ne. 11:29; emphasis added). The verb stir sounds like a recipe for disaster: Put tempers on medium heat, stir in a few choice words, and bring to a boil; continue stirring until thick; cool off; let feelings chill for several days; serve cold; lots of leftovers.

A cunning part of his strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control. We hear, “I lost my temper.” Losing one’s temper is an interesting choice of words that has become a widely used idiom. To “lose something” implies “not meaning to,” “accidental,” “involuntary,” “not responsible”—careless perhaps but “not responsible.”

“He made me mad.” This is another phrase we hear, also implying lack of control or agency. This is a myth that must be debunked. No one makes us mad. Others don’t make us angry. There is no force involved. Becoming angry is a conscious choice, a decision; therefore, we can make the choice not to become angry. We choose!
To those who say, “But I can’t help myself,” author William Wilbanks responds: “Nonsense.”

“Aggression, … suppressing the anger, talking about it, screaming and yelling,” are all learned strategies in dealing with anger. “We choose the one that has proved effective for us in the past. Ever notice how seldom we lose control when frustrated by our boss, but how often we do when annoyed by friends or family?” (“The New Obscenity,” Reader’s Digest, Dec. 1988, 24; emphasis added).

In his sophomore year Wilbanks tried out for the high school basketball team and made it. On the first day of practice his coach had him play one-on-one while the team observed. When he missed an easy shot, he became angry and stomped and whined. The coach walked over to him and said, “You pull a stunt like that again and you’ll never play for my team” (23). For the next three years he never lost control again. Years later, as he reflected back on this incident, he realized that the coach had taught him a life-changing principle that day: anger can be controlled.

In the Joseph Smith Translation of Ephesians 4:26 [Eph. 4:26], Paul asks the question, “Can ye be angry, and not sin?” The Lord is very clear on this issue: “He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

“Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away” (3 Ne. 11:29–30).

This doctrine or command from the Lord presupposes agency and is an appeal to the conscious mind to make a decision. The Lord expects us to make the choice not to become angry.

Nor can becoming angry be justified. In Matthew 5, verse 22, the Lord says: “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment” (emphasis added). How interesting that the phrase “without a cause” is not found in the inspired Joseph Smith Translation (see Matt. 5:24), nor in the 3 Nephi 12:22 [3 Ne. 12:22] version. When the Lord eliminates the phrase “without a cause,” He leaves us without an excuse. “But this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away” (3 Ne. 11:30). We can “do away” with anger, for He has so taught and commanded us.

Anger is a yielding to Satan’s influence by surrendering our self-control. It is the thought-sin that leads to hostile feelings or behavior. It is the detonator of road rage on the freeway, flare-ups in the sports arena, and domestic violence in homes.

Unchecked, anger can quickly trigger an explosion of cruel words and other forms of emotional abuse that can scar a tender heart. It is “that which cometh out of the mouth,” the Savior said; “this defileth a man” (Matt. 15:11). David O. McKay said,

“Let husband and wife never speak in loud tones to each other, ‘unless the house is on fire’” (Stepping Stones to an Abundant Life, comp. Llewelyn R. McKay [1971], 294).

Physical abuse is anger gone berserk and is never justified and always unrighteous.

Anger is an uncivil attempt to make another feel guilty or a cruel way of trying to correct them. It is often mislabeled as discipline but is almost always counterproductive. Therefore the scriptural warning: “Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them,” and “fathers provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged” (Col. 3:19, 21).

Choice and accountability are inseparable principles. Because anger is a choice, there is a strong warning in the proclamation “that individuals … who abuse spouse or offspring, … will one day stand accountable before God.”

Understanding the connection between agency and anger is the first step in eliminating it from our lives. We can choose not to become angry. And we can make that choice today, right now: “I will never become angry again.” Ponder this resolution.

The 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants is one of our best sources to learn correct leadership principles. Perhaps the most important application of section 121 is to spouses and parents. We are to lead our families by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness, kindness, and meekness, and by love unfeigned (see D&C 121:41–42).

May each child’s dream of having a family here on earth that is good to them come true. This is my prayer and my testimony in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.



Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 1:57 pm
by AshleyB
Wow! This is all very eye opening and helpful. Rand, your comments made a lot of sense but the one specifically about putting ending our own suffering above that of building God's Kingdom being Prideful. Wow. I have thought that so many times. Poor me, poor me. I dont care about progression right now. Just take me away from this place. Life is too hard and Im too weak. I just wanna give up. Its pride all along thats my biggest problem. Amazing. Im so grateful to you all and to Heavenly Father for helping me see myself more clearly. :ymapplause:

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 5:21 pm
by fps.sledge
mattctr wrote: Okay, I've been rambling here... I'm not sure I agree with everything I just typed
I don't have authority to validate exactly everything that was said, but I do appreciate what you've said as I think it balanced out some previous comments. Thank you!

One thing I want to point out is, yes, we all have pride within ourselves. I do think it's unfair to ourselves to assume that we can't recognize or point out pride in another individual without remembering the pride in ourselves. Perhaps a better way to clarify, remembering the pride within ourselves is appropriate, but it SHOULDN'T hold us back from recognizing it elsewhere.

Sure, there are some prideful statements made by everyone now and again. I don't think it's an act of pride to point out someone elses pride. Just because one person can point out the pride in someone else, doesn't automatically mean they're acting in a prideful manner that very instance.

I think that comes down to the topic of judging people. Judging righteously is ok. But many times we are judging unrighteously. It depends on our intent on how we recognized the pride, how we perceived it, how we reacted to it, etc.

This is a very good topic as every sin stems from pride.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 5:36 pm
by fps.sledge
Rand wrote:President Grant once said something that rather startled me. He said he had heard of men who declared that they had had a personal visitation from the Lord. And then President Grant added, "Some of those who had that experience lost their testimonies. It seemed that they became puffed up in the pride of their hearts, perhaps thinking that they were more special to the Lord than others who had not received the same experience." Be Loyal to the Royal Within You HAROLD B. LEE
This would explain an experience I had. While on my mission I had a chance to meet with an apostle. While talking with some fellow missionaries, we tossed around different questions that would be interesting to ask an Apostle. I was set on asking a question relating to whether they had personally been visited by Christ. During the drive to the visit I felt like I had been very spiritually rebuked and tamed and felt it would be inappropriate to provoke such responses from an apostle.

We need to be praying for them more, not tempting them.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 6:31 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Pride is a sin that you can't really monitor yourself on - as soon as you feel like you are gaining mastery over it...you lose!
No offense, but this fallacy isn't doctrinal and is one of my pet peaves. So Christ can't know himself? Job can't know himself? Rubbish!

The lie is that pride and debasement are opposite ends of a balance. In reality humility isn't on that beam at all. Humility is based on honesty. When man sees himself as God sees him, he realizes that he's a weenie. I have known humble people and they all knew where they stood, they didn't revel in their humility, but they simply knew they weren't so much as all that. Debasement relies on that fact and acknowledgment and then goes one step farther and meets out punishment and correction that isn't founded in truth and doesn't help (therein is the disconnect, the lie). The truth is that we aren't so much and the "what to do about it" has been laid out by the Father as the Great Plan of Happiness/Salvation. No addendum needed.

Humility is self honesty, no more, no less.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 10:04 pm
by AshleyB
The truth is that we aren't so much and the "what to do about it" has been laid out by the Father as the Great Plan of Happiness/Salvation. No addendum needed.

Humility is self honesty, no more, no less.

Im sorry I must be misunderstanding you here? I wont assume anything... But it seems like you are making a statement and then saying..end of story...no need to talk about it? If thats the case why do we bother discussing any of the things we do on this forum because we have the great plan of salvation? I wish I had all my ducks in a row and understood everything like you do and then I wouldn't want/need to share and learn from others. I am hoping that what I "guessed" by your statement is not the case... and if not please enlighten further. I dont want to misunderstand. Also, if you could expand your your explanations on debasement that would be really helpful for me.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 29th, 2011, 10:30 pm
by Original_Intent
SM&P,

If you are going to make such sweeping and knowledgable statements, you should be a little more careful of your choice of words. You mention debasement a couple of times as if it is a positive thing - debasement means to lessen the value to lower than the actual value. such as debasing coins by mixing with a cheaper metal. I do like what you said about just being honest with yourself and not thinking too much of yourself.

I also think you misinterpreted what I said. Or perhaps not. I only meant that humility is not something you can ever feel you have mastered, otherwise, is not the act of self congratulation the rebirth of pride?

But it seems like you have a good handle on the humilty thing. Congratulations.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 5:56 am
by NoGreaterLove
There is a big difference between Christ saying "I am that I am" and one of us saying it. I agree with OI on this one. As soon as we begin to even have the thought that we have mastered pride, the very thought is a prideful one. We do not even have a complete understanding of pride, how could we ever feel like we have mastered something when we can not even fully define it?

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 8:20 am
by mattctr
NoGreaterLove wrote:There is a big difference between Christ saying "I am that I am" and one of us saying it. I agree with OI on this one. As soon as we begin to even have the thought that we have mastered pride, the very thought is a prideful one. We do not even have a complete understanding of pride, how could we ever feel like we have mastered something when we can not even fully define it?
I don't foresee that I will master all pride in this lifetime. However, I do recognize some areas/times where I have been able to humble myself with the Lord's help. Recognizing growing humility doesn't strike me as prideful, simply because it is usually a feeling of gratitude and trust in the Lord vs. the arm of my own flesh. Now, maintaining that humility for any prolonged period has proven difficult, but I think there is something to focusing on submitting our will and becoming more humble (the antidote of pride), learning from and being sympathetic to examples of those in whom humility is present, and striving to overcome pride by taking the next step--making the next sacrifice.

One thing I've noticed about conquering some little area of pride is that each small victory opens my eyes to additional pride I could not have otherwise noticed. It's as if I remove one roadblock only to reveal several more that still lay in the path ahead. I suppose the trick is to be grateful for each roadblock that gets removed--even though it may reveal additional roadblocks of which I was previously, willfully ignorant. I don't think it will ever be enough to say, "I'm done; I've arrived; there is nothing more to do." Though, I see no problem in acknowledging some progress in overcoming a roadblock along the path, so long as I continue onward to the next, as opposed to sitting back content to marvel at that one feat as the end.

You are right that we mortals cannot fully define pride, so it is impossible to declare it "finis" or vanquished in us. Only an all-knowing being can possess an eye discerning enough to make such a final declaration. Gladly, such a being takes a personal interest in each of us and will help unfold to us each next step (and roadblock) along the path--line upon line.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:28 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
On the contrary, I was stating that debasement is also pride and that true humility isn't even on the same balance as those two evils.

Yes I am saying that true humility sees itself and yet remains, and consists of seeing ourselves as the Father sees us, and that is the end of that.

That does not negate the necessity of discussion so that those who do not see it that way will come to see it that way, but that happens to be the truth. I didn't make it true, it has nothing to do with me. Why should I be compelled to state the truth as opinion? If that convention were universally applied we could cancel testimony meeting forever, or turn it into an "no offense but I think" meeting.

Pride also gets it's undies in a bundle and takes offense. Many thought Joseph Smith prideful due to the same fallacies being perpetuated here.

Watch one of my favorite movies "The Big Country" with Gregory Peck, and you'll see a great example of what humility looks like, and get an explanation of some truth to boot.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:48 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
As to defining debasement, in this context it is the act of self flagellation Opus Dei style (or Mormon Masochism as I like to call it) in order to "humble" oneself. It relies on the fallacious assumption that pride and debasement balance each other and moderation in both will save us. In reality we should avoid both and see humility as the completely unrelated virtue it is, which consists of nothing more nor less than seeing ourselves as the Father sees us.

Just for fun I googled that definition and wouldn't you know, "the truth will out."
From a Primary Lesson:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. Ask the children to each write on a piece of paper a few of their talents. Ask if we can be talented and humble at the same time. Explain that each of us has been given talents to develop. Some people want to take credit for their talents, thinking that they did all the work to develop them. Other people belittle themselves, saying they have no talents. True humility is not to belittle or make light of our abilities. It is seeing ourselves as God sees us and recognizing that, as children of God, he has given us all that we have, and that each of us has been blessed with many talents.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 12:52 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Oh, and one more addition: Knowing the truth and refusing to deny it is not pride, it's fidelity.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 4:06 pm
by AshleyB
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Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: April 30th, 2011, 4:42 pm
by gooseguy11
My wife and I were discussing this last night on our way back from the temple. I had been pondering on these things lately so I had a little more to discuss. While I don't believe this to be doctrine it just seems to make sense to me.

Pride is selfishness.
Charity is selflessness.

As we stive to live our lives more perfectly, and try to be full of charity at the last day we can be "purified" through it. Selflessness will push out all pride in our hearts. A service project if done in the right spirit, can push pride(selfishness) away.

45And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.