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Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 1st, 2011, 6:35 am
by tmac
SwissPitch, you and I have had some great exchanges in the past. You have opened my eyes to a lot of things, and I have always appreciated your insights. In this thread, I am very interested in the concept of humility you have presented of seeing ourselves as God sees us. That is a concept that is likewise described in an experience that was posted in the Mighty Change thread, that I'm also going to copy and post below, along with the other great talks about pride that have been shared. Since reading that experience, I have gained a better understanding of the need to do just as you say -- see ourselves as God sees us -- in all our sins and imperfections, etc. In the related experience, however, that appears to have been something that was only made possible though the spirit, by having the spirit open the eyes of one's understanding to have the experience of seeing oneself as God does. From my perspective, that becomes a very important step, almost a first step, along the path to many spiritual blessings that seem to be unlocked only by the key of true humility and a broken heart and contrite spirit. I have been reflecting and pondering a lot about that lately, and so far don't see how my temporal/mortal eyes, even my spiritual eyes, can really fully see myself as God does, without some serious spiritual help in that regard. So that is my question: from your perspective, what can/should a person do to be able to better see themselves as God does? Based on my newfound understanding, I think you've hit on an important principle that I am trying to gain a better understanding of. In addition to having a better theoretical understanding, though, I want to better understand and know how to bridge the gap between theory and reality. I'll be interested in any and all thoughts on the subject. In the meantime, I hope that others will enjoy/appreciate the story/experience related below as much as I have.
From the Book -- Experiencing The Mighty Change

A Personal Testimony of Jesus Christ and the Reality and Power of His Atonement in My Life

In June, 1974 I was baptized and confirmed a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It was a glorious experience and I remember it well.

I never questioned the truthfulness of the gospel or of the Restoration. From the moment I heard the missionaries teach, I knew it was true. There was never even a flicker of doubt. It was like being reunited with an old and dear friend.

The spirit of repentance did not come upon me until the day I was baptized. Before that time I had received a testimony that the Gospel was true and that the Church of Jesus Christ had in fact been restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith. But the question of my sins had not been the object of my serious consideration until the day of my baptism. I was at the time, twenty-seven years of age.

For me, the process of repentance began with my baptismal interview prior to my baptism. The interviewer was kind and considerate although his questions pierced my soul. I wept as I confessed my sins and admitted of my deep sorrow for my past life. My spirit was truly contrite as I entered into the waters of baptism. I wept openly throughout my baptism and confirmation as the spirit of the Lord testified to my heart of the tender mercies of a loving God. I had truly been born again to see the Kingdom of Heaven. I felt the burden of my sins lifted and I rejoiced with all my heart at my membership in Christ's true church.

Through it all I did not know that, although I had received the spirit of repentance prior to my baptism, I had not received the gift of full repentance; that, while I had been born again to "see" the Kingdom of heaven through the receipt of my testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost, yet I had not been born again to "enter" into the Kingdom of God and I had not actually received the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. While I had enjoyed a sanctifying experience that lifted the burden of my sins, yet I had not been sanctified unto a complete and unconditional remission of all my sins, including the effects of those sins. My knowledge of these heavenly truths did not come until later, in July of 1981.

For seven years, from 1974 until 1981 I was actively and zealously engaged in Gospel living In December, 1975 my precious wife and I were married in the Arizona Temple. I was consumed with the desire to live the Gospel fully, to

Serve, teach, testify, study and pray fervently. And I did so continually. I was actively involved in missionary work, temple work and home teaching. I strived to magnify all my church callings and took my membership in Christ's church very seriously, as I do to this day. I absorbed myself in Gospel and scripture study feeling that I couldn't read enough. I indeed hungered and thirsted after righteousness and truth and this hunger and passion has not subsided for even a moment, for even a heart beat.

Through it all I enjoyed many spiritual experiences, sanctifying experiences. I have come now to describe such experiences as "contractions" leading to my spiritual birth. I felt the spirit of the Lord with me many times; I felt His love for me and felt a great love for Him and a desire to know Him. I was privileged to be an instrument in the Lord's hands several times in exercising the Priesthood. Miracles were performed and lives were blessed. It was a wonderful seven years; a time of growth, development and preparation; a time of gestation. Yet through it all I sensed that something was missing.

I could not describe what was missing in my life then, although now it is clear and understandable. Still, describing it to others is very difficult. It's like trying to explain the joy of parenthood to those who have never been parents.

In 1981 my life changed. For seven years the Lord had prepared my mind and my heart. My time was at hand. My Heavenly Father sent to me a son of God, a member of the church who was and is a true disciple of Christ, to draw me unto His Beloved Son. This blessed man carried within his soul the seed of Christ which he planted within my heart. Like all true endowments of the Spirit, only those who have the gift can confer it to others by the power of the Holy Ghost.

What was this seed of Christ? It was the blessed gift of full repentance. This is the endowment that ultimately induced the labor of the second birth.
The Spirit of the Lord bore witness to me that this man knew Christ. As we sat in my home one evening I felt the power of his testimony of the Savior as I had never felt it before. My soul was aflame with the desire to know the Lord as this man did, and I told him so.

The next morning as we were about to depart, my new friend boldly invited me to come to Christ. He urged me to pray more fervently until I received the baptism by fire; he called me to repent until I received a complete remission of my sins. His words were bold but kind and they sunk deeply unto the core of my heart. The seed of Christ had been planted. Little did I know what all of this would mean.

This was a very difficult time in my life. At the time I was serving as the Stake Missionary in my stake. I was immersed in my calling and was
enjoying a good measure of success. But I was self-employed at the time and my consulting practice was very slow. In fact, at the time I had no clients and was financially without means to provide for my family.

It was during this time that I was called to come home to Christ. Shortly after my friend departed I found myself in my office alone and without work. The Spirit called me one day as I sat behind my desk and prompted me to pray. I instructed my secretary that I did not want to be interrupted under any circumstances and then locked myself in my office and began to pour out my heart unto God.

I prayed that day and for two succeeding days. I prayed long and hard and for many things. But the primary intent and focus of my prayers was to know the Lord and to understand and appreciate the personal implications of the Atonement in my life.

On the third day, July 21, 1981, I found myself kneeling again by my chair in fervent prayer to know the Lord. Suddenly I saw myself praying and the presence of the Lord was beside me. As I watched, the Lord spoke to my mind and said, "Look." I looked and for the first time in my life I saw myself as I really was, through the eyes of Christ.

What I saw I cannot fully describe in words. My whole soul was illuminated and I saw with complete clarity and understanding the deepest recesses of my subconscious mind. I saw within the hidden nooks and crannies of my soul the effects of all my sins as well as all my sins of commission and omission which had been repressed into the hidden regions of my mind. I was completely transparent. Everything was now so painfully clear, my sinful motives, intentions and desires, all cleverly disguised and rationalized through years of self-talk. Even the good things I had done for the wrong reasons were flashed before my all-seeing eye. No act, word or deed escaped my view. I saw everything.

As I beheld myself thus, my mind was, to use Alma's words, "racked with torment" and "inexpressible horror." . Several times I tried to shut out the vision but the Lord would not allow it. Each time I tried to turn away the Lord would say, "Look," and I continued to look into my soul. I wept and pleaded for the Lord to stop the vision. When I had finally seen everything the vision ended and there was darkness. I turned to find the Lord but He was no longer beside me.

The scene instantly changed and I found myself behind the brush on the outside of a garden clearing. Again a voice came to my mind and instructed me to look. My eyes turned to the garden clearing and there, in the midst, I saw my beloved Redeemer Suddenly it became clear to me that I was
Witnessing His act of Atonement. But what transpired I was not prepared to see.

How can one explain with mortal words the agony of a God. Anything I say or write somehow diminishes the impact.

Be that as it may, I saw the love and suffering of the Christ and am a personal witness of it. I don't know how it is possible, but I was in Gethsemane on the day of His Agony and I saw in great and terrible detail with my eyes and heard in, awful clarity with my ears that which is too sacred to describe to unprepared ears.

His sobs and His cries pierced my soul and I felt the wrenching of my heart with each audible groan or quivering convulsion of His body. Then came the revelation that broke my heart: "Behold the love of God for you and His suffering for your sins."

It was too much to bear. As I became aware that He was suffering such agony for me. because of my sins, because of His love for me. for a "soul so rebellious and proud as mine", my heart broke and I thought I would die. Never had I sobbed and wept so violently and with such bitterness of soul. I never knew the body could sob as mine did. I never knew a heart could break as mine did. I never knew a broken heart would hurt as much as I hurt. I was in agony as never before. I thought my heart would stop and my head and chest would explode. I cried out and begged the Father to stop the suffering of my Friend and Elder Brother. "Stop it! Stop it! Please stop His suffering!" I wept, I sobbed and my body convulsed in anguish as I attempted to reach through the brush to hold Him, to somehow comfort Him. But His suffering did not stop and there was nothing I could do to help Him.

Finally, resolving myself to this hopeless state and wishing only to die for what I had done to Him, I cried out through my choking sobs, "Please forgive me! Please, dear God, forgive me for what I have done to my Savior. I am sorry, so very, very sorry for hurting Him so. It is enough," I continued, "please stop His suffering. I will never again do anything to hurt Him. Never! Never!"

I continued to sob and plead for forgiveness until I was totally exhausted and lay slumped on the floor weeping hot tears of anguish and pain. My strength was exhausted and I was prepared to die when the vision stopped and the voice of the Lord said unto me, "My son, thy sins are forgiven thee."

When I heard these words from my Savior I was filled with fire, which I later came to know was the endowment of charity. Never had I felt such love, such peace. I was overcome again unto great sobbing, but this time with joy. So intense was the outpouring of God's love through the fire of His Spirit that I felt as though my very life would end and my flesh would be consumed. I came to know by the spirit of revelation that my life was acceptable to the Lord; that I had been completely and unconditionally cleansed of all my sins and the effects of my sins; that I had been made holy, without spot - clean every whit -- by His precious blood. I had been truly born again to enter into the Kingdom of God; I was redeemed from the fall; sanctified by the endowment of His perfect love, even charity. Through this experience I came to understand the meaning of total conversion; of justification and of sanctification; of full repentance.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 1st, 2011, 8:08 am
by Rand
I would add a component to this discussion. Humility is seeing yourself as God sees you. This is a good way to look at it, but it is also seeing ourselves in proper relationship to God. Humility is in essence to trust God. To trust His commandments and living oracles and living according to them as more important than "my way" of living my life. It is a submission to His wisdom as opposed to our will. We must see ourselves as we really are, but that is only completely possible in seeing ourselves in context with God as He really is.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 1st, 2011, 2:02 pm
by KOMYU
I remember Elder Pinnock toured our mission many moons ago. Something he said about humility has always stuck in my mind and I still ponder it often. He simply said that humility will be the last test in life that we go through. I know he meant more to it than that simple statement. Perhaps this is why I think about this often. It has been great reading these posts. Thank you all!

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 1st, 2011, 7:17 pm
by NoGreaterLove
One thing I've noticed about conquering some little area of pride is that each small victory opens my eyes to additional pride I could not have otherwise noticed. It's as if I remove one roadblock only to reveal several more that still lay in the path ahead. I suppose the trick is to be grateful for each roadblock that gets removed--even though it may reveal additional roadblocks of which I was previously, willfully ignorant. I don't think it will ever be enough to say, "I'm done; I've arrived; there is nothing more to do." Though, I see no problem in acknowledging some progress in overcoming a roadblock along the path, so long as I continue onward to the next, as opposed to sitting back content to marvel at that one feat as the end.
Mattctr
I really like this statement. I think it is well put.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 1st, 2011, 10:14 pm
by truthseeker
Pride has been and is a tricky one for me. I imagine it is for all of us since it is the universal sin. Some things I think about when trying to figure out where I stand:

Am I choosing my way over God's way? Am I trusting my own judgment and perceptions over God's wisdom? Do I trust God?
Is it me vs. them or it is about us? Is my spirit devisive and exclusive or is it inclusive and loving?
Do I already know the answers? Do I already have it all figured out? Or am I open to your point of view? Am I teachable?
Am I trying to prove that I am right and you are wrong? Or am I working with you to find where the truth lies while trying to understand our different perspectives?
Am I judgmental of your weaknesses? Or am I compassionate and understanding as we see each others struggles?

This idea that being overly hard or self-critical of oneself is a form of pride is interesting to me because it something that describes me. I would appreciate any thoughts on why this would be considered prideful.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 5:20 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Thanks, Tmac.
I have been reflecting and pondering a lot about that lately, and so far don't see how my temporal/mortal eyes, even my spiritual eyes, can really fully see myself as God does, without some serious spiritual help in that regard. So that is my question: from your perspective, what can/should a person do to be able to better see themselves as God does?
While I agree that it takes a spiritual vision to attain a full understanding of how God sees us (read the end of D&C 76, the vision of the post-earth kingdoms, wherein it is stated that all may receive the vision), what is most important is the basic truth of who we are, and those may be gathered from the revealed doctrine of our place in the Plan and eternity, and we may know them.

I have a hard time separating this issue from the great talk given by Elder F. Enzio Busche Of the Seventy:
http://lds.org/ensign/1993/11/truth-is- ... -the-issue" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 4, we read, “And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.” [D&C 1:4]

This message of warning reminds us that we human beings are spiritual children of a Father in Heaven, who is the author and finisher of all truth, and that we are lost in this earthly, fallen state unless we allow the Light of Christ, or the Spirit of truth, to become our constant and infinite guide.

In the message of the Restoration, we learn that during our mortal life our agency is tested through the inseparable connection of our spirit with the elements of this earth, “the flesh,” or the “natural man” (see D&C 88:15). By this revelation we not only understand the cause of mankind’s misery, but we also receive the keys and power that enable us to end this misery once and for all. As our mind is opened through our study of the plan of salvation, each of us comes to see that our life means that the “real me,” or “the spiritual child of God,” created in innocence and beauty, is engaged in a fight for life or death with the elements of the earth, the “flesh,” which, in its present unredeemed state, is enticed and influenced by the enemy of God.

From the revelations of the Book of Mormon, we know that this enemy fights with all fury and cunningness to make all men miserable like unto himself (see 2 Ne. 2:27). It is Jesus Christ who, through His light, is searching and finding each individual child of God who is yearning and fighting for righteousness and truth and who is crying for help. Without Christ, this war within us is lost. Without Christ’s plan of redemption and His atoning sacrifice, we all would have been lost. We knew that before we came to this earth, and we can sense it again, when through the Light of Christ our minds are quickened with understanding (see D&C 88:11).

The issue is truth, my dear brothers and sisters, and the only way to find truth is through uncompromising self-education toward self-honesty to see the original “real me,” the child of God, in its innocence and potential in contrast to the influence from the other part of me, “the flesh,” with its selfish desires and foolishness. Only in that state of pure honesty are we able to see truth in its complete dimension. Honesty may not be everything, but everything is nothing without honesty. In its final state, honesty is a gift of the Spirit through which the true disciples of Christ feel the force to bear testimony of the truth in such a powerful way that it penetrates the very core of our existence.

One great example of the effect of the preaching of the prophets is recorded in the Book of Mormon. King Benjamin, out of love and concern for the welfare of his people, preaches the truth of the plan of salvation. He does this in such an uncompromising, pure way that the people come to a complete awareness of their nothingness and their worthless and fallen state (see Mosiah 4:5). This last step of awareness of honesty, where we see ourselves in our sinful, mortal existence, causes the people of King Benjamin to cry aloud with one voice, “O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins” (Mosiah 4:2).

Initiated by the hearing of the word of truth, a disciple of Christ is therefore constantly, even in the midst of all regular activities, striving all day long through silent prayer and contemplation to be in the depth of self-awareness to keep him in the state of meekness and lowliness of heart. It is the prophet Moroni who points out that “because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love” (Moro. 8:26).

With this enlightened understanding of the deadly battlefront inside of us, we are painfully aware that we can only ask for and receive the help of the Lord, as the God of truth, under the condition of complete and relentless self-honesty.

This war is a war that has to be fought by all of Heavenly Father’s children, whether they know about it or not. But without a keen knowledge of the plan of salvation, and without the influence of the divine Light of Christ to bring us awareness, this war is being fought subconsciously, and therefore its battlefronts are not even known to us, and we have no chance to win. Wars in the inner self that are fought subconsciously, with unknown battlefronts, lead to defeats which also hurt us subconsciously. These defeats are reflected in our conscious life as expressions of misery, such as a lack of self-confidence, lack of happiness and joy, lack of faith and testimony, or as overreactions of our subconscious self, which we see then as pride, arrogance, or in other forms of misbehavior—even as acts of cruelty and indecency.


No! There is no salvation without Christ, and Christ cannot be with us unless we pay the price of the constant fight for self-honesty.

One of the great tragedies we see in our lives is that the adversary, through the influences of our “flesh,” can cheat us into establishing images of truth or perceptions of truth. Our brain, the great computer where all the facts of life’s memories are held together, can also be programmed by the “flesh,” with its self-centered ideas to deceive the spiritual self. Without the constant striving through prayer and contemplation to reach the ends of self-awareness and honesty, our so-called intellect can, therefore, based on look-alike truths, play many games of reason, to impress, to get gain, to intimidate, or even to manipulate truth with the vain results of deceit.

Of such, the Apostle Paul wrote: “For men shall be lovers of their own selves, … proud, blasphemers, … unholy, …

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: …

“Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim. 3:2, 5, 7).

All learning leads to nothing unless it is centered on finding the roots of truth, which cannot be received without first becoming honest. In such striving, we suddenly know how to pray. Paul says, “For we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us” (Rom. 8:26).

Enlightened by the Spirit of truth, we will then be able to pray for the increased ability to endure truth and not to be made angry by it (see 2 Ne. 28:28). In the depth of such a prayer, we may finally be led to that lonesome place where we suddenly see ourselves naked in all soberness. Gone are all the little lies of self-defense. We see ourselves in our vanities and false hopes for carnal security. We are shocked to see our many deficiencies, our lack of gratitude for the smallest things. We are now at that sacred place that seemingly only a few have courage to enter, because this is that horrible place of unquenchable pain in fire and burning. This is that place where true repentance is born. This is that place where the conversion and the rebirth of the soul are happening. This is the place where the prophets were before they were called to serve. This is the place where converts find themselves before they can have the desire to be baptized for the remission of their sins. This is the place where sanctifications and rededications and renewal of covenants are happening. This is the place where suddenly the atonement of Christ is understood and embraced. This is the place where suddenly, when commitments have solemnly been established, the soul begins to “sing the song of redeeming love” and indestructible faith in Christ is born (Alma 5:26). This is the place where we suddenly see the heavens open as we feel the full impact of the love of our Heavenly Father, which fills us with indescribable joy. With this fulfillment of love in our hearts, we will never be happy anymore just by being ourselves or living our own lives. We will not be satisfied until we have surrendered our lives into the arms of the loving Christ, and until He has become the doer of all our deeds and He has become the speaker of all our words. As He has said,

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing” (John 15:5).

Let us, therefore, listen, my dear brothers and sisters, to the voice of warning. And let us embrace the Spirit of truth that we may stand blameless through the atonement of our Lord. I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
The scriptures and more recent prophets (ergo scripture) teach us a lot about how we are seen, our faults and talents and perspective etc... I cannot say enough about the truth of the above talk!

Personally though, I know my past and like others here was exposed to smut and molested at a very early age and consequently have an extremely difficult time thinking I am any better than anyone else (which is correct, "better" is a judgment reserved for God alone). I remember being in high school with some acquaintances making fun of this weird kid (they were, not me) talking to himself and I remember thinking that there wasn't much difference between him and I. In elementary school I roughed up a kid in my class because he was too much like me and I hated the reminder and thought if I beat him up we couldn't be the same, that I would have to be better then. I regret that act more than I can express, it has haunted me. The principal pulled me in and told me about his mother crying etc... made me feel like dirt. And I remember a moment when the spirit told me unequivocally what would happen if I turned amiss at the crossroads of truth and lies. The event that prompted it was rather inconsequential, but the Spirit let me know that if I lied, I would soon not be able to trust myself, my own judgment (these are the little lies of self defense Elder Busche speaks of). Swiss had to work for years to overcome those as a result of her abusive past and consequential guilt. I made the right choice after that crossroads, though I confess that I haven't always held 100% firm on the honesty front though I confess it's hard to remember any specifics to the contrary. I try to and most often succeed in remembering that the day will come when all will be shouted from the rooftops except that which has been repented of, and that only those thus redeemed will "pass by the angels who stand as sentinels" passing "Go" (the public Judgment bar) and collecting the reward. And I try to act according to that understanding.

And then I also remember little things that have shown me how much God loves me and reasons why He and others are proud of me. I had a bishop disarm me once with sincere compliments that I couldn't deny at a time they were desperately needed.

Likewise I know that I feel comfortable in the temple and that tells me a lot. I know when I feel sheepish there for stupid unresolved things and I then lose my confidence and begin to lose faith (see lectures on faith, man must know the course of life he is pursuing is pleasing to God or he cannot expect God to bless him in it, ergo no faith). I know that separation from my immediate family would be extremely hard and separation from Swiss, the worst conceivable hell. I know of my fidelity, that I hate to be touched and always have. My family wanted to know how that was going to work in marriage, but Swiss is a part of me and you can't be incompatible with yourself. I know that the thought of any other human intimacy (besides Swiss) of a "romantic" kind is repugnant to me. I know how to seperate beauty from sex, hence people and things aren't "sexy" to me. I know what true beauty is and I know what it's counterfeits are and know not to desire them as they drag you down. I know that I pray night and day for Zion to come, for good uplifting associations and society. I know how I feel when I enter the wilderness and how I feel when I come back into fallen society. I know how highly I esteem my brothers and sisters regarding their divine potential, and how I mourn their poor choices and celebrate their successes. I have followed the scriptural admonition to pray for charity and received an overwhelming response on my mission on a rush hour trolley in Philadelphia. I could feel the stress and anguish of every person on the trolley, I could sense how they felt about themselves and how God views them and even now I can't help but tear up thinking of it. I know how I see my wife and surely how God must then view her. I know how precious the virtue of my children is to me and consequently to God. I know how it tears me up to see them quarrel and choose poorly, putting their immediate will over what ultimately brings happiness to them and their siblings. I know enough to honestly acknowledge my weaknesses and have become aware of my strengths.

I have a rough Idea what numbers really mean, I know how long it takes to count to a thousand, a million, a billion, a trillion, a quadrillion etc... I know that daily simple interest on the wealthiest individuals net worth ($74B) is more than I could possibly spend in that same day, maybe even in my life. I can extrapolate those numbers to other things like solar systems and galaxies and stars and planets and I can judge that against Hubbles deep sky field photos and extrapolate "world's without number." I read in National Geographic this morning about how our sun is prototypically perfect for planets and that much larger and much smaller suns have fewer and fewer planets. That tells me that I am a seriously small part of the overall equation. Knowing that our world is likely among the more wicked part of those creations further qualifies me as a very small dot. But when viewed next to the Love and intervention and companions and knowledge and truth that God has shown me, I know that He knows me as well and much better than I know and care for my own children.

Sitting down to answer this makes me aware of just how many things we have that show us how we are perceived. It's just a matter of putting the pieces together in the context of talents and experiences. I am honest enough to acknowledge that I could not have weathered my cousins life, nor some of my friends and acquaintances as well as they. I know talents are not given equally and that we are judged by what we would do in a textbook situation. I have the talents I have and others do not. Some have more and different, some less and different, some the same with vastly different faculties and experiences.

I was fortunate enough to attend an average of one school per year for 17+ years of schooling. We moved a lot. I saw different cultures and met lots of different people. I seldom knew what race my friends were. I saw poeple raised in poverty and abused and people raised amid vast wealth and spoiled. I am quite sure I could not have weathered the latter. I know that I don't know where to begin in judging the worth of a soul and it's merits. I don't even try.

But being honest with myself I don't make excuses for my actions, I know what I could do better and why I didn't do better and vice versa. I always ask myself what I would do and why before concluding that another has chosen poorly. Swiss and I discuss everything all the time. It's like an eternal Gospel Doctrine class and we both demand honesty. We discuss our motives a lot and consequently understand why we do what we do, in all honesty.

I don't know how all this comes off. I sincerely don't write any of this for any purpose other than by way of illustration of how we may see as we are seen without direct revelation. I know who I am and I don't hate or so cherish myself as to place myself above another.

Honesty then is my addition to the list of how to achieve humility and know it.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 9:04 pm
by Rand
And I cherish that honest self evaluation and find so much to emulate in it. Thanks for that sharing and testimony of a life's Gospel centered journey toward Zion.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 10:21 pm
by NoGreaterLove
SMP
Thanks for sharing. It helped me to know you better.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 10:43 pm
by AshleyB
Wonderful Post SM&P :) I can see that you and I have lots in common. :) I liked how you talked a lot about your motives. Its really amazing to me how the Lord is able to move us and teach us line upon line and precept upon precept. Discerning my own motives has become something I try to do constantly now a days. When I look back to my past I can see where and how I lied to myself often. And why. Sometimes, I can still catch myself though I TRY very very hard to recognize it and not do it. Old habbits die hard. And our weaknesses truly cannot be overcome without the Savior. With the way I was raised I struggle with incessant guilt for things. I could have absolutely NOTHING to do with a situation and somehow feel like it is partly my fault. I think much of that is a product of my abuse. My Mom, had a very difficult up bringing and so many traumatic events take place that she started using alcohol as a crutch to deal with such heavy emotions and hard ships that she didnt know how to deal with and is extremely Addicted and really hates herself. I dont know if she can see it like I can. But often times the things we see in others or dislike are things we dislike or see in ourselves. My mom and I dont have much of a relationship to speak of anymore because she pushes us all away. I have to often fight against similar feelings. But luckily for me I was able to turn away from the things my family does and seek a different rout, One that can offer peace. I am grateful fro my weaknesses even though they frustrate me because without them I would lose a never ending battle against my Pride. Being honest with yourself although it can be hard to deal with the things you see and find out about yourself is also the only way to become free. Thanks for your insights. They have helped me a lot. And although we may not agree on every issue I can see a lot of common sense and logic in the things you write. As well as emotion. And as someone told me recently, thats not easy to do. :)

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 11:03 pm
by tmac
SwissPitch, I don't know how I could say it any better than has been said. Thanks for sharing the article, and your own experiences and insights. It really helps broaden my understanding. As a result of a number of things I have experienced recently, I have engaged in some of the most probing introspection I have ever experienced. And one of the conclusions I came to was just how dishonest I have been, both with myself and with others. Over the course of the past year I have experienced some things, including financial reversals and failures that I could have never wished upon myself on anyone else, but I have now come to feel grateful for them because without them I would have undoubtedly continuing going down the road, as a friend of mine described, "fat, dumb and happy." But what I have experienced has humbled me to a degree that I have never experienced before, and doubt I ever would have experienced to the same degree if things had gone differently and my ventures had been successful. Now I pray that I can truly see myself as I really am, and as God sees me so that I can further humble myself, without being further essentially forced to be more humble, and completely repent and make amends for the myriad things that really need to be addressed in my life. It has been a very interesting experience, and is undoubtedly still a work in progress. But now I view these hardships to be a great blessing. Your insights, and those of others who have contributed to the discussion, help me understand all this even better. Thanks.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 2nd, 2011, 11:03 pm
by tmac
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Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 3rd, 2011, 6:33 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
I've just started into the Hyrum Andrus lectures linked here. I started into the Pearl of Great Price "The Creations of God..." Some really cool insights there. I liked the doctrine that this world was the worst of all the creations but yet abides a Celestial law and hence will rise above all others to be second only to Kolob. Very representative of Christ then who descended below all (as a proxy) and yet rose above all. It makes me think that maybe we may do the same (like Enoch who claimed at least a part of it).

For me one key I try to always keep in remembrance is that no matter how much I succeed in adhering my life to true principles, they will never follow me one iota out of course, they are fixed, more firm and immovable than I, and I can succeed only by submission to the laws upon which such success is predicated.

How though can we undo the many years of lying and changing the perception of reality that many have undergone? How can we as friends and acquaintances provide the necessary perspective and reinforcement to allow/encourage them to see the truth?

It's occurred to me a lot lately that we have allowed our enemies to have the ball and make the rules. It sometimes makes me wonder how much longer many members will be able to even proclaim to non-believers that our church is true (without prefacing it with a caveat that we respect their equal claim that they know better)? Many of the things we get angry at each other for we turn around and do with non-members. And yet we must be able to boldly testify of a truth they know not of and hence agree not with. We have to come across as arrogant to many by declaring truths they do not know, a better way than they posses, to greater happiness than they know. If we are examples of such by the way we live, then the elect will find us and the naysayers cannot harm us with their taunts.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 4th, 2011, 8:01 am
by tsc
I memorized this short but powerful poem years ago, and I have tried to keep it close to my heart as a reminder as to the type of man and priesthood holder I should be.

"Men judge their successes in various ways, prestige of the job or how much it pays.
The houses they live in, the titles they've gained, the cars they drive, their fortune and fame.
If these were true measures as frequently hailed, we'd have to conclude that Christ surely failed."

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 4th, 2011, 8:34 am
by tsc
Alma 5:26-28 (chapter 5 in Alma is one of my favorites!)

26 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?

27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?

28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 4th, 2011, 10:06 pm
by bbrown
Why debasing yourself = pride: Just in case the longer, more in-depth explanations are hard to understand I thought it would be good to explain it in simpler terms (at least as I understand it). Judging yourself to be of less value than God does is at the very least not seeking His judgement and at worst, rejecting it. Putting yourself, your judgement in this instance, before God is prideful and leads to disobedience of His commands and a turning from His will. And as spoken of in previous posts, it is lying and deception, even if to yourself.

Catherine

Re: The Clutches of Pride

Posted: May 6th, 2011, 3:43 am
by SempiternalHarbinger
bbrown wrote:Why debasing yourself = pride: Just in case the longer, more in-depth explanations are hard to understand I thought it would be good to explain it in simpler terms (at least as I understand it). Judging yourself to be of less value than God does is at the very least not seeking His judgement and at worst, rejecting it. Putting yourself, your judgement in this instance, before God is prideful and leads to disobedience of His commands and a turning from His will. And as spoken of in previous posts, it is lying and deception, even if to yourself.

Catherine
You are so right! Every time I make a mistake, it's usually when I don't ask the simple question, what would Chist do? Not seeking his judgment, or as you say "reject it." When tough time have come my way I have not always made the right decision, this is when I have questioned my self worth, when I do that I lose faith in God and don't listen.

A couple weeks ago I was at a friends house and they were watching Tiger Woods play golf. Long story short the commentators were discussing his new swing coach and they were debating why the greatest golfer of all-time needed a swing coach. Know one has won more than him, nobody has the experience he has, nobody reads greens like him, and nobody can hit a ball like him. So why does the greatest golfer need a swing coach? They asked his old coach this question and he said, even though nobody knows more than Tiger and he knows exactly what he wants to do, he still needs someone not to correct him but to tell him what he can't see and feel. Tiger might know the perfect swing but sometimes he makes bad shots when he thinks he has made the perfect swing. The coach recalled a swing were Tiger was certain he did everything right but still made a bad shot, his coach was there to tell him, hey you pulled up a second to early. Tiger knew how to correct the problem and didn't make another bad shot. But if he didn't have a coach to tell him what he couldn't see he wouldn't Be able to make the adjustments.

So this got me thinking and decided to ask my mom and girlfriend to evaluate me and tell me what they thought some things I needed to work on. My mom brought up pride. Not what I was expecting, but she had a great example of how i was being prideful. I would share the story but I have said enough. But I never would have known if my mom wouldn't pointed it out. Pride has been on my mind since, I came across this thread and have to say it might be one of my all time favorites on the forum. There is so much great stuff in such a short thread. I am way excited it's been on my mind because I probably would have passed it up. I mean, pride, were talking about pride here, come on now, that's the last thing I need to
work on. :-$ j/k