LDS Freedom Forum

This Article was serialized in 20 segments which appeared on the editorial page (page 4) of The Deseret News, 19 March 1945 through 10 April 1945.

Chapter Titles:
1. The Unknown Constitution
2. The Convention Which Framed It
3. The Men Who Made It
4. The People Who Adopted It
5. The People Rule
6. Democracy Attempts Suicide
7. These Inalienable Rights Belong To All Mankind
8. Americans Have Their Rights
9. You Have The Right To Work
10. Shall It Be Jehovah Or Baal
11. "Privilege Of Speech Is Granted"
12. The People Create A Government of Laws
13. America Chooses A Successor To George III
14. 'When The Wicked Rule The People Mourn'
15. Thus Saith The Supreme Court: It Shall Not Stand
16. The Congress Shall Have Power
17. Bureaucracy Comes of Age
18.Has Congress Failed Us?
19. The People Change Their Government
20. It Is A Rising Sun

http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/tal ... const.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems members of the Church need to learn the Gosopel of Jesus Christ first, before we can understand our Constitution as it was intended to be understood.

lundbaek wrote:It seems members of the Church need to learn the Gosopel of Jesus Christ first, before we can understand our Constitution as it was intended to be understood.

Good point. And to add just a little, if I may; by understanding the rights and liberties and freedoms contained therein, people would see that preserving our rights is essential...and in line with "befriending the constitution." And you're correct; one needs to know the gospel in order to value these freedoms provided us by our Father in heaven.

I read a talk about how it is important to teach our children the elements of the constitution for their learning and understanding so they would value and defend it later in life. And another section dealing with training our children to communicate with God.

This is an exerpt from that talk.
Elder Joseph L. Wirthlin
Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric
October, 1939

Greatness Of The Constitution To Be Taught
There is another great love, not only love of God and love of one's neighbor—and might I say that love of one's neighbor is best exhibited in the service that we render to those who are around us—but there should be love of country, that which has been so impressed upon us here during this Conference. I wonder how often, as parents, we take dusty copies of the Constitution of the United States from our book cases or our libraries, spread them out on the table, and then invite our boys and girls to come and go over the articles of that sacred document, one by one. I wonder, if an examination were given to the citizens of the United States today, relevant to the Constitution of the United States, how many of us would pass it successfully? There rests upon us most definitely the obligation of acquainting our boys and girls with this great document; teach it to them article by article, that they might understand the principles involved therein, principles that make for liberty, freedom, and personal initiative and of worshiping God according to the dictates of one's conscience.

Our boys and girls should know and understand that the Constitution made it possible for the organization of a government under which the Church of Jesus Christ could again be restored to the earth.. Do we ever read to our boys and girls the sentiments expressed by prophets of God in connection with this great document, such as the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard. It is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner. It is, to all of those who are privileged with the sweets of its liberty, like the cooling shade and refreshing water of a great rock in a dreary and thirsty land. It is like a great tree, under whose banners men from every clime can be sheltered from the burning rays of the sun."

These words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, relative to this great document of liberty and freedom, should be so ingrained in the hearts of our boys and girls that they will feel we not only have standard Church works, such as the Bible and the Book of Mormon, etc., but that we also have standard government works, the first of which is the Constitution of the United States.

Do we ever give our boys and girls any practical lessons in teaching them the true greatness of the Constitution? How often do we pass some great industrial plant, and notice hundreds of automobiles around it? Some of us may think that those automobiles belong to the owners of the plant, or to the management, but such is not the case. Those automobiles belong to the men who work in the plant. You can see that sight only in America. You can't see it in Europe, because it is not there. These men own automobiles because of the rights that they have under the Constitution of the United States to earn and pay for those things that are within the buying and purchasing power of all of these people.

We speak of Hitler and his ingenuity in accomplishing great things mechanically—and might I say he has—but there is one thing that he has not given his people, although he has endeavored over a period of years to provide an automobile that would be within their purchasing power. But here in America we not only enjoy automobiles, some of the comforts of fine homes, and fine homes themselves, but practically every blessing that even the rich and elect of far-off Europe enjoy. All of these things are possible individually because we live in a country where personal initiative is not restricted, where each and every man can have anything he wants, if he will work for it.

Fundamentals In The Training Of Children
In training the heart, we will all agree that this great organ, which vitalizes the body and keeps it alive, is also the seat of all emotions, and the greatest emotion to be cultivated and stimulated is that of love. The first and great commandment is to love God the Eternal Father with all of one's heart and soul and mind; and the second one is like unto it, to love one's neighbor as one's self.

In teaching our children to love God, what is the first lesson? I would suggest that the first lesson is the lesson of prayer, to take the child, although he may be barely able to walk, to the family altar of prayer. Teach him the necessity of communicating with God, his Eternal Father, from whose presence his spirit has but recently come. If we can establish that bond, between God the Eternal Father and our children, through prayer, we are inculcating into their hearts respect for, faith in, and love for their Eternal Father.

We are anxious that our children should understand the principles of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We should encourage them to study these principles. Obedience to the principles should be taught. We will find that through prayer, obedience, and study comes understanding; and with understanding comes testimony, a testimony that God lives, that Jesus was the Christ, and that in the meridian of time the Gospel was restored through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Yesterday in church I was treated to a lecture about how we need/should not push the topics of freedom and Constitution on each other now because members need to focus on the issues currently being stressed by the Prophet and First Presidency, and "when the time is right" LDSs will be inspired to study and apply the principles of freedom and Constitution in our government. The speaker also made it sound like members who spend time on these subjects of Constitution and freedon would make better use of their time, energy, and resources if they would "follow the counsel of the Prophet". The speaker made it sound very convincing and I did not feel like discussing or arguing about it afterwards with anybody. The thought I have now is that in church these topics are not just on a back burner, but off the stove altogether. I still feel driven to do what I can to impress other members with the importance of these subjects now, and I know others do as well. But it seems that our efforts are generally ignored and seldom reinforced by members in leadership callings. So I ask those of you who are trying to impress other members with the importance of the principles of the Constitution and freedom: do you encounter the same or similar frustrations as I have discussed here, and what keeps you going ?

lundbaek wrote:Yesterday in church I was treated to a lecture about how we need/should not push the topics of freedom and Constitution on each other now because members need to focus on the issues currently being stressed by the Prophet and First Presidency, and "when the time is right" LDSs will be inspired to study and apply the principles of freedom and Constitution in our government. The speaker also made it sound like members who spend time on these subjects of Constitution and freedon would make better use of their time, energy, and resources if they would "follow the counsel of the Prophet". The speaker made it sound very convincing and I did not feel like discussing or arguing about it afterwards with anybody. The thought I have now is that in church these topics are not just on a back burner, but off the stove altogether. I still feel driven to do what I can to impress other members with the importance of these subjects now, and I know others do as well. But it seems that our efforts are generally ignored and seldom reinforced by members in leadership callings. So I ask those of you who are trying to impress other members with the importance of the principles of the Constitution and freedom: do you encounter the same or similar frustrations as I have discussed here, and what keeps you going ?

In the first place, do the admonitions and counsel given in the past by church leaders a lot higher than that speaker get thrown out and deemed void?

Secondly, just as we do now in the church by studying the gospel so we will be more prepared to meet God, I think we need to learn and study, as much as we are able, the constitution and its offerings so we will be prepared to do something about it. How else can we "befriend it" as directed by God? I think He has more clout. Besides, if someone is telling us to do something opposite of what scriptures teach, which are official church doctrine, then that alone is problematic. One has to ask if that was direct revelation or just someones own agenda being pushed on others. And why would one Prophets words supersede anothers? That speaker needs to have a lot of talks given by previous Prophets and scriptures given him so he will understand the enormity of the situation. God doesn't work from an empty cup, so why should we?

Just my thoughts.

"members need to focus on the issues currently being stressed by the Prophet and First Presidency." What current issues?

It is my observation that the admonitions and counsel given in the past by prophets and apostles Re. freedom and constitutional principles are off the stove for now. The issues currently being stressed by the Prophet and First Presidency were presented in Conference. I believe i and others here understand at least some of the reasons why freedom and constitutional principles are off the stove for now. And a pity it has to be so, really.

lundbaek wrote: The speaker also made it sound like members who spend time on these subjects of Constitution and freedon would make better use of their time, energy, and resources if they would "follow the counsel of the Prophet".

Was the speaker a general authority? Who was the speaker if you don't mind telling us?

The person who spoke about how we need/should not push the topics of freedom and Constitution is one of the "pillars" in the ward.

lundbaek wrote:The person who spoke about how we need/should not push the topics of freedom and Constitution is one of the "pillars" in the ward.

Maybe you could order a bundle of these: http://www.nccsstore.com/Pocket-Constit ... ctinfo/PC/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and pass them around in the ward.

Or you could give him this on paper:

The last neutralizer that the devil uses most effectively is simply this: 'Don't do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution.' This brings us right back to the scripture about the slothful servants who will not do anything until they are 'compelled in all things' (D&C 58:26). Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if He set one up at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps He does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe (D&C 86:5-7).
Ezra Taft Benson CR, April 1965

Keep up the good word Lundbaek. And everyone else involved that are not "slothful servants."

lundbaek wrote:Yesterday in church I was treated to a lecture about how we need/should not push the topics of freedom and Constitution on each other now because members need to focus on the issues currently being stressed by the Prophet and First Presidency, and "when the time is right" LDSs will be inspired to study and apply the principles of freedom and Constitution in our government. The speaker also made it sound like members who spend time on these subjects of Constitution and freedon would make better use of their time, energy, and resources if they would "follow the counsel of the Prophet". The speaker made it sound very convincing and I did not feel like discussing or arguing about it afterwards with anybody. The thought I have now is that in church these topics are not just on a back burner, but off the stove altogether. I still feel driven to do what I can to impress other members with the importance of these subjects now, and I know others do as well. But it seems that our efforts are generally ignored and seldom reinforced by members in leadership callings. So I ask those of you who are trying to impress other members with the importance of the principles of the Constitution and freedom: do you encounter the same or similar frustrations as I have discussed here, and what keeps you going ?

I came across this:
http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-importanc ... -part-one/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and http://www.ldsliberty.org/the-importanc ... -part-two/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


This is not the only excuse we must combat within ourselves. In his April 1965 Conference talk, President Benson outlines 7 common excuses church members use for not getting involved in the fight for freedom.

First: “We really haven’t received much instruction about freedom” the devil says.
Second: “You’re too involved in other church work,” says the devil.
Third: “You want to be loved by everyone,” says the devil, “and this freedom battle is so controversial you might be accused of engaging in politics.”
Fourth: “Wait until it becomes popular to do so,” says the devil, “or, at least until everybody in the Church agrees on what should be done.”
Fifth: “It might hurt your business or your family,” says the devil, “and besides why not let the Gentiles save the country? They aren’t as busy as you are.”
Sixth: “Don’t worry,” says the devil “the Lord will protect you, and besides the world is so corrupt and heading toward destruction at such a pace that you can’t stop it, so why try?”
Seventh: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own specific program to save the Constitution.”

Because of these excuses and others, we are neglecting the commandments of our prophets on this issue, and many of us are completely unaware of the importance of freedom and the constitution. This is a serious oversight. We stood for freedom in the pre-mortal war in heaven, and we must continue to do so now. David O. McKay said, “There are two contending forces. Those forces are known and have been designated by different terms throughout the ages. In the Beginning they were known as Satan on the one hand, and Christ on the other… in these days, they are called domination by the state on one hand, personal liberty, on the other.”

“Next to being one in worshiping God,” says President McKay, “there is nothing in this world upon which this church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States!.” (President David O. McKay, 1956, The Instructor 91:34; quoted in Newquist, op. cit., p. 101.)

Thought you might like this, Lunbaek.

Much of the above would be considered false doctrine if spoken of by members now.

Just a thought...

Maybe the reason that the GAs are not preaching as much about defending the constitution from the pulpit these days, may not be so much because of the unwillingness of members today to accept such counsel as to the fact that the Church is more of a worldwide church than it was back in the days of David O McKay and others.

Conference talks present ideas to be used by the Church as a whole and not so much for one specific region. When the church presented its opinion about what the members in California should do regarding Proposition 8, it passed this information to congregations in California, not in General Conference.


Maybe what isn't being considered here is that now the US based Church is just a bigger California?

Regards,

George Clay

Lundbaek: FWIW, Your posts exactly express my concerns. Since agency was THE issue in the Premortal Counsel and the one which caused 1/3 rd of God's children to fall, I see agency on the very front burner ALWAYS, not just sometimes as it seems some ar arguing. The Constitution is God's political document to preserve and defend ageny. He raised the founders to wrire it. If the Constitution falls, will agendy fall? I think YES. What will that do for the soread of the Gosple and oiur ability to pracice our faith here in the USA? Increase it, remain the same, or decrease it. You choose but I say greatly decrease it.

The Constitution provides agency for all peoples of the world at least accroding to the D+C. Thus, all explanations that the reason we don't hear much in GC is because many Saints live in different countires, IMO goes against the D+C.

Those reasons suggested by George probably would fly with most members, but not with members who understand the principles of the US Constitution and the reasons the Lord gave us those principles by which He intended us to govern ourselves politically.

Lundbaek: Ignore the Georges of the world becasue they don't understand that without agency God's plan would be stopped. Feel great sorrow for the georges of the world.

Isn't the terms "America" and "Promised Land" synonymous? The Constitution is for this land. When someone comes into this land and sets up residency, they should learn to abide by the Constitution and what it offers.
Church members outside of this country are not under the Constitutional blanket. However, by living the gospel as it is layed out, they are living their lives in conformity with what the Constitution is based on...which is righteous living. They just don't have all the Constitutional rights and freedoms provided in its pages.

I think George has a viable thought, in that church members in this country could be instructed by their local leaders...sent down from SLC...to take a stand. This can be done simply by seeking honest, wise and good candidates for office. It can be done by talking to our local Congressman. It can be done by watching and challenging our elected officials in their inappropriate actions. But once our freedoms are gone, it will take bloodshed to get them back.

The problem is, like me, I didn't know the gravity of the situation. I had no idea what was in the Constitution and other writings. Church members all over this land are in the same boat; it is up and until they realize the damage they are doing, and that they need oars to navigate, they will ignorantly help in the chipping away of our freedoms. This is very sad, to say the least. As members and other concerned Americans wake up and realize they are about to be swallowed up in a NWO, we stand a better chance of survival.

I believe the very first line of defense should be the preservation of our right to keep and bear arms. Once we lose this right, they will have their fingers in our nose to lead us wherever they want us, to do with us whatever they will, and to demean us till we see life as a bug does in a spiders cacoon, all wrapped up nice and neat unable to resist. As a society, most Americans will be permeated with sorrow and regret; a good share of them will know they let God down. And themselves.

Am I close?

Freedom Fighter: Much of the blame for lack of understanding the Constitution and Liberty is do to the public education system. In my opinion, this has been by design.

I rememebr that BY strongly argued against the use of public education for many IMO sound reasons. The Church over the years IMO has strayed from his wise counsel. Yes, se have the Seminary and Institutute prorgams to try to offset public education BUT... neither program has classes on the Constitution and liberty. IMO, there should be.

For newcomers to the forum, or onlookers, this thread may provide some insights.

gclayjr wrote:Just a thought...

Maybe the reason that the GAs are not preaching as much about defending the constitution from the pulpit these days, may not be so much because of the unwillingness of members today to accept such counsel as to the fact that the Church is more of a worldwide church than it was back in the days of David O McKay and others.

Conference talks present ideas to be used by the Church as a whole and not so much for one specific region. When the church presented its opinion about what the members in California should do regarding Proposition 8, it passed this information to congregations in California, not in General Conference.


Maybe what isn't being considered here is that now the US based Church is just a bigger California?

Regards,

George Clay

Prop 8 was about a law that specifically affected Californians, so this is different. Constitutional laws affect everyone all over the world, according to the scriptures:

And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me. (D&C 98:5)

freedomfighter wrote:This Article was serialized in 20 segments which appeared on the editorial page (page 4) of The Deseret News, 19 March 1945 through 10 April 1945.

Chapter Titles:
1. The Unknown Constitution
2. The Convention Which Framed It
3. The Men Who Made It
4. The People Who Adopted It
5. The People Rule
6. Democracy Attempts Suicide
7. These Inalienable Rights Belong To All Mankind
8. Americans Have Their Rights
9. You Have The Right To Work
10. Shall It Be Jehovah Or Baal
11. "Privilege Of Speech Is Granted"
12. The People Create A Government of Laws
13. America Chooses A Successor To George III
14. 'When The Wicked Rule The People Mourn'
15. Thus Saith The Supreme Court: It Shall Not Stand
16. The Congress Shall Have Power
17. Bureaucracy Comes of Age
18.Has Congress Failed Us?
19. The People Change Their Government
20. It Is A Rising Sun

http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/tal ... const.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New and improved post. This Is in similitude of hearing the same scriptural topic in church every four years, only with closer intervals and just as needful.

freedomforall wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:This Article was serialized in 20 segments which appeared on the editorial page (page 4) of The Deseret News, 19 March 1945 through 10 April 1945.

Chapter Titles:
1. The Unknown Constitution
2. The Convention Which Framed It
3. The Men Who Made It
4. The People Who Adopted It
5. The People Rule
6. Democracy Attempts Suicide
7. These Inalienable Rights Belong To All Mankind
8. Americans Have Their Rights
9. You Have The Right To Work
10. Shall It Be Jehovah Or Baal
11. "Privilege Of Speech Is Granted"
12. The People Create A Government of Laws
13. America Chooses A Successor To George III
14. 'When The Wicked Rule The People Mourn'
15. Thus Saith The Supreme Court: It Shall Not Stand
16. The Congress Shall Have Power
17. Bureaucracy Comes of Age
18.Has Congress Failed Us?
19. The People Change Their Government
20. It Is A Rising Sun

http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/tal ... const.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New and improved post. This Is in similitude of hearing the same scriptural topic in church every four years, only with closer intervals and just as needful.

Has anyone checked these out?

From Segment 18 of subject article: 18. Has Congress Failed Us? "The fault lies with the Congress, or perhaps ultimately with the people, for sending to Congress men who will vote for social and economic measures which usurp the powers of states over their internal and domestic matters."

lundbaek wrote:From Segment 18 of subject article: 18. Has Congress Failed Us? "The fault lies with the Congress, or perhaps ultimately with the people, for sending to Congress men who will vote for social and economic measures which usurp the powers of states over their internal and domestic matters."

This thread may help rectify the problem: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32515" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;