Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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Mahonri
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by Mahonri »

mattctr wrote:
LukeAir2008 wrote:You have to remember that most of what Joseph Smith and his immediate successors taught is no longer authorized to be taught in Church. About 75% of what I believe, all of which was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith, I wouldn't dream of discussing or even mentioning at Church. Where's it all going to end? Now that's food for thought!
Sunday block meetings help us "meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls" (Moroni 6:5). They are a good thing, and I look forward to attending church meetings with the ward. I try to not only learn from the spoken sermons but detect and hear the numerous UNSPOKEN sermons that abound. HOWEVER, for the most part, I believe that while the mainstream, correlated, sanctioned, and approved materials are excellent at providing global consistency and helping to avoid tendencies of teachers to rely on their own angles and introduce the philosophies of men, it is mostly milk and honey. We hear the simple and sweet things of the Kingdom, and I assume this is by design.
I don't believe the Lord wants to discourage you from growing into the meat of the gospel, but the 3 hour block, general conferences, and other public forums are not necessarily the right forums for it yet. The problem has more to do with apathy among the membership who remain content in only drinking the milk and tasting the honey. I believe church meetings are a broader gateway that consistently point us toward the pathway of scriptures, prayer, service, the temple, etc. (the primary answers), and if we can learn to do those things, the results will bring greater understanding; our minds might be opened and the glorious mysteries of the kingdom unfolded before us--line upon line. Suddenly, we get an appetite for meat and begin studying more--no longer content with only the milk. However, just because we have come to love the meat, doesn't mean it would be properly digested :ymsick: by those who are still on the bottle, and in some principles, I am among "those" on the bottle. :-$
I just re-read what I wrote and realize how ridiculous it must sound. Forgive me, but I'm too lazy to fix it.
It's not that mad Matt ;)

I agree with you in concept. We had in several Wards I have been in people trying to use not only unauthorized material, but material put out by televangelists, self-help guru's etc for the lone source in their Home Teaching. NOT good.

I thin the original intent was good in helping people know what was "official" and what wasn't. Unfortunately though with many, it has been turned into a way to stunt spiritual growth.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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We had our Stake High Council visitor today. He stated that until we apply the basic principles taught by our modern prophets we will not be able to progress to the higher concepts and principles.

He rehearsed one particular admonition from each modern President of the Church from Harold B. Lee to the present. He then touched upon one main principle taught by each Apostle from April 2011 General Conference. One of the most compelling points - to me - was from David A. Bednar's address, The Spirit of Revelation:
The spirit of revelation is available to every person who receives by proper priesthood authority the saving ordinances of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost—and who is acting in faith to fulfill the priesthood injunction to “receive the Holy Ghost.” This blessing is not restricted to the presiding authorities of the Church; rather, it belongs to and should be operative in the life of every man, woman, and child who reaches the age of accountability and enters into sacred covenants. Sincere desire and worthiness invite the spirit of revelation into our lives.
Hebrews 5
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
It appears to me that the general Body of the Church is NOT living up to the Lord's standard of Spiritual Maturity. Sad and frightening, really!

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Zowieink
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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After reading all the posts, I gotta chime in.....OK stir the pot a little.

For me, I think that the Sunday School classes really don't give us much meat. History is important, I suppose, but every four years you come around and are taught the same thing again (the lessons don't get changed very much, if at all). So here's my solution:

Don't teach the old and new testiment. Concentrate on the Book of Mormon (ancient scripture) and the Doctrine and Covenants/Pearl of Great Price (new scripture). When I was a teenager, I visited many different churches, mostly protestant and Catholic but got some visits to the Jehova Witnesses, and some of the more flamboyant evangelical "spiritually manifest" types. I came to one great conclusion...the bible is interpreted to many ways.

Now as a member for over 40 years, I still think that the bible is too interpretive. The Book of Mormon is so much clearer than anything in the bible. Didn't Joseph Smith say that no other book is as perfect as the BofM? and that a man could come closest to God by abiding its principals than through any other book of scripture, or something like that. So bag the bible, and concentrate on more "perfect" scripture and the words of modern day prophets.

Better yet, can Sunday School and go to a 2 hour 15 min block and make more room for other wards. We wouldn't have to build so many buildings and use those sacred funds for humanitarian projects or whatever. B-) As an example look at what the Bible says about faith, vs what Alma and the BofM says about faith. Or better yet, baptism of little children and the age of accountability.

So, all you Bible thumpers out there, what can be learned from the Bible that can't be learned from (excepting the life of Christ & his ministry): a. The words of modern day prophets and apostles. b: The D & C/PoGP/JST c: The Book of Mormon. :D

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Mahonri
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by Mahonri »

Zowieink wrote:
So, all you Bible thumpers out there, what can be learned from the Bible that can't be learned from (excepting the life of Christ & his ministry): a. The words of modern day prophets and apostles. b: The D & C/PoGP/JST c: The Book of Mormon. :D
ummm.. you know a good chunk of the PoGP is from the JST of the Bible right?

if you don't know the answer to the above question, I'd seriously suggest picking up a full JST and doing some serious studying.

Not to degrade the other books of scripture, but I don't think we can just throw out any of the standard works and still have a complete picture

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Zowieink
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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Yes, and I have a copy of the full JST. And, don't misunderstand me, all scripture is good. My only point is on interpretation. The Bible is just too loose (think about how many ways the protestant churches baptize...pour of the head, sprinkle, immersion, and "you really don't need actual baptism because its a "spiritual" thing. Now, with the Holy Ghost we can understand and read between the lines. But really, the Bible was put together in 325? at the Council of Nicea. Most of the books were put in through negotiation, not revelation. There are many good things to learn in the Old and New Testaments. But, my point is that the REALLY good stuff that is PLAINLY written and understandable is in the BofM, D&C, PofGP, and modern prophets.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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just tell him, the next "restoration" is right around the cornor, right?

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Mahonri
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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sbsion wrote:just tell him, the next "restoration" is right around the cornor, right?
:-o

umm "restored for the LAST time"

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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he he.......got an answer from you......ok, "restored" in my statement would be the second coming, when Zion's laws will be practiced after the cleansing..........restored?......well, I'll go with you on the church..stan

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Gideon
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by Gideon »

LukeAir2008 wrote: About 75% of what I believe, all of which was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith, I wouldn't dream of discussing or even mentioning at Church.
This is probably true of the General Authorities as well. We have to distinguish between private study and public teaching. In General Conference, and in our Sunday meetings, there is a variety of people at different levels. For example, I teach Gospel Doctrine class, and I usually have about 50 - 60 people in attendance. They range in age from early 20's to 80's, and some are relatively new in the church. If I were to discuss the King Follet discourse with this group, some would love it, some would be confused, and some might report me to the bishop.

Keep in mind that we are also constantly encouraged to go to the temple often. As we do this, and learn and keep the covenants, we will become sanctified. That is when we will have the greater things manifest to us, that is when we will have our calling and election made sure. That is when we will see what the brother of Jared saw.

So, milk for the general church public, until the general church public is more Zion like.



I think that the following verses might apply to the original post for this thread:

And let them journey from thence preaching the word by the way, saying none other things than that which the prophets and apostles have written, and that which is taught them by the Comforter through the prayer of faith.
(D&C 52:9)

7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people.

8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken—behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.
(3 Nephi 19:7-8)

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
(John 12:49)

buffalo_girl
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by buffalo_girl »

So, all you Bible thumpers out there, what can be learned from the Bible that can't be learned from (excepting the life of Christ & his ministry): a. The words of modern day prophets and apostles. b: The D & C/PoGP/JST c: The Book of Mormon.

I have received specific answers from the Old Testament to questions I've taken to the Lord regarding current issues which are of serious concern to me. The Temple Ceremony is found in the Old Testament.

In one verse, I am able to 'witness' through Abraham's eyes the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah and the coming consumption by fire of the telestial world.

Genesis 19
27¶And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:

28And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

What did the Resurrected Christ say to the People of this Land about Isaiah?

3 Nephi 23
1And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

I love ALL the scriptures. I cannot imagine being without the Old Testament family stories which reveal a very personal relationship with God, a type of relationship we might each strive to imitate. or...the Proverbs in nearly Haiku form speak a volume of wisdom and insight:

Proverbs 16
7 When a man’s ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Proverbs 11
22 As a jewel of gold in a swine’s snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion.


...or the Apostolic testimonies of those who lived during the time of the Ancient Church. How could we know how much Jesus was loved by his mortal brothers without the witness of James and Jude? How would we know how Peter and Paul's lives were transfigured by the Baptism of Fire which could only have occurred after the Resurrection?

I'm ok with the Bible.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by freedomforall »

Are there any points of doctrine found in the Bible that do not exist in the Book of Mormon?

I would think the Bible is essential for doctrines like, Baptism for the dead, Three degrees of glory, Celestial marriage, the Sticks of Judea and Joseph...and Temple ordinances, to name some. Maybe this is why the two Sticks should be "one" in our hand.

Food for thought

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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Are there any points of doctrine found in the Bible that do not exist in the Book of Mormon?

Jehovah's in the Old Testament and Christ's in the New Testament of His one-on-one personal regard for and blessing of women.

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LukeAir2008
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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We could actually survive doctrinally on just the Book of Mormon, D&C and PofGP. The Bible doesnt give us anything unique. It does provide a historical perspective on the organisation of the ancient church and touches on some of the doctrines taught.

Doctrines found in the Book of Mormon but not the Bible. Mmmmm...how about the true doctrine of the Atonement. Alma 34. Christ didn't pay for our sins - nobody pays for anybody else's sins. Christ took upon himself our sins and suffered so horrifically that mercy could then be activated throughout all of the intelligences in the Universe which then overpowers the demands of justice. Christ achieved this in the Garden of Gethsemane before he even got to Calvary. :)

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paper face
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by paper face »

The principle of "opposition in all things" is more clearly stated in the Book of Mormon than any other scripture. Which is important when you realize that it is the answer to our generation's refrain of "If God exists then why is there all this suffering in the world?"

But you can't diminish the importance of the gospels, Isaiah and Genesis. The Bible is as important to the Book of Mormon as visa versa because they are intended to relate to each other.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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paper face wrote:The principle of "opposition in all things" is more clearly stated in the Book of Mormon than any other scripture. Which is important when you realize that it is the answer to our generation's refrain of "If God exists then why is there all this suffering in the world?"
But you can't diminish the importance of the gospels, Isaiah and Genesis. The Bible is as important to the Book of Mormon as visa versa because they are intended to relate to each other.
and, don't forget...."....asfar as translated correctly...", so how does this affect the JST?..well, no matter what, we must seek the spirit to KNOW the truth

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SpeedRacer
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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Easy there folk. The section in the handbook is talking about what you can teach from, not what you can study from. Study anything obscure or out there until you are blue in the face, but remember, there are still a lot of people choking on milk at church.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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teach at church, or to anyone elsewhere?

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people?

Thank you so much, for that reminder, BrentL!

My then non-LDS husband & I were married 30-some years ago by a Rabbi in a private ceremony in the Rabbi's home. That dear Man of God was blind, but his Spiritual vision spanned the Ancient History of Israel and brought it all to that quiet room in his home. He told us that there were many more present with us than those of our small company.

We are indeed in their debt for 'bringing forth salvation unto [us]'!

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Roark
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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kinda surprised that no one has yet mentioned this talk
i think it hits right to the heart of the matter.
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=660

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TheProfessor
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by TheProfessor »

Epic dig there by Roark. Has been one of my all-time favorite McConkie talks for a long time.

Right after they were married, Bruce and Amelia started reading the KJV together along with a copy of the Inspired Version. They would compare each verse in the KJV with the IV and pour over the changes together. They went through the entire Bible that way. Joseph Fielding McConkie said that experience laid the foundation for his dad's work on the committee that reworked the LDS scriptures and incorporated Joseph Smith's revisions into our current Bible.

I'm pretty sure that in BRM's Doctrinal NT Commentary he uses verses from the IV that are not currently in our JST to enhance his commentary and shed additional light.

Heck, the BYU Bookstore sells the IV; that's where I got mine :p

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AussieOi
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by AussieOi »

tribrac wrote: I would be bored out of my mind if I could only study the officially sanctioned stuff, buton the other hand it would be nice to hear a talk in Sacrament that didn't quote Brother Bytheway or Brother Franklin Covey, or Elder Dave Ramsay, or President Millet's allegory of the Bicycle.

ELDER Covey, get your facts right

;-)

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SpeedRacer
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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Roark wrote:kinda surprised that no one has yet mentioned this talk
i think it hits right to the heart of the matter.
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=660
Great talk. Never heard of it before. I am going to have to get an IV Bible. Now as far as teaching from the entire work...

We know we can teach from the portion that Eldre McConkie helped integrate into our current versions of the scriptures. However the portions that are not there I cannot seem to get a grip on whether or not they should be referenced. Anyone have the exact words of the latest handbook?

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TheProfessor
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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

Post by TheProfessor »

The handbook essentially just says to use the LDS version of the Bible. From what I've heard, there is no discrepancy between the original Bible Joseph used to work on the JST and the printed Inspired Version. However, I also understand that the LDS Church only requested those sections which were lengthy or doctrinally significant.

I have referenced scriptures from other biblical translations in talks before, in order to shed a little different light on a particular teaching, and I wasn't struck by lightning :p. I don't see why it would be problematic to reference a verse a verse or two from the Inspired Version if it served the same purpose. I think it would be problematic if someone was consistently seeking out obscure IV passages and building talks/lessons around them. Then you're just yanking the presiding authority's chain.

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Re: Unauthorized/Unofficial JST

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paper face wrote:IMO, it's one of the reasons why we lose some of the younger generation to inactivity. For lots of teens our current KJV is a confusing cross-referenced & foot-noted nightmare. Hundreds of verses have a "caveat": the JST of the verse. Which, if you're lucky, resides down below in the footnotes. But if you're reading in Matthew or Genesis there is an appendix with dozens of verses that change the game in a confusing and often confounding way and/or cause you to have to switch back and forth between the main text and the appendix.

I understand that the translation was never completed, but the portions that were completed/added are beautiful. Why don't we have a cheap, all inclusive, unapologetic version of the Joseph Smith Translation available for regular people to read straight through without having to refer to footnotes and appendices? Isn't it antithetical to hand a Quad over to our 12-year-olds and expect them not to be overwhelmed by Talmages countless cross references? Why can't we just start them out with the plain text and reserve the current version for when they have progressed in their learning?

I think the main reason is our continuing desperation to be accepted by the greater evangelical Christian world. As long as we utilize the KJV we can claim we use the same Bible that they use. I'm obedient in what I use to teach, but I think we'd be better off abandoning the KJV for the JST. Our missionaries would also be better off preaching from the Book of Mormon alone with only passing references to the Bible.

I ended up ordering a JST from Amazon that was published by the RLDS (Herald Publishing). There are zero footnotes. It is beautiful to be able to read the Bible that Smith spent years preparing for us.

With all our footnotes, it's no wonder other churches claim we use a different bible. They could misconstrue the real purpose for them and wonder if our members are too lame to understand scripture.

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