LDS Freedom Forum

Yesterday after Sacrament meeting, we had a special meeting that was called by our Bishop after he proceeded to close the meeting with a hymn and benediction. He asked if all adult members would remain afterwards in the chapel for a few minutes because they had some important and serious information to disclose to the members of our ward. As you might imagine, speculation began immediately about what it might be. So we had the closing hymn and prayer and immediately, one of our high council reps got up and dismissed all the children, youth and youth instructors to their classes, but asked that all adults remain. He even asked that the overflow doors be shut and advised everyone to come to the front of the chapel because he was not going to use the microphone to say what he had to say. At this point, we were all pretty nervous, wondering what the heck this was all about.

Once all the doors were closed and we were all seated up front, this high councilman proceeded to announce that person X (I don’t know if he was in a position of high leadership or not) had been ex-communicated for conduct detrimental to the church. He asked that no speculation occur about it and that the decision had been made unanimously by a church court. After that, he dismissed everyone. This seemed peculiar to me since I had never heard of a person’s name being disclosed publicly like that regarding an ex-communication, especially considering the manner in which the announcement was made. Has anyone else had an experience like this in their ward because it sure took us by surprise? Isn’t an ex-communication between the person being ex’d, their family, the Bishop, Stake Presidency, First Presidency and the Lord?

depends.

if the person is well known as a member or the action looked like it was done in an official capacity, if that information was not known that it could damage the Church and things along those lines.

Usually it is not known though like you said. When I was in a Bishopric, we didn't tell anyone but the mans quorum president so that the individual would not be called on in meetings.

In the Catholic Church the Priest says it from the pulpit to ALL the members. And he doesn't do it quietly. It gives a whole new meaning to the "fear of God", doesn't it?

For us, knowing so-and-so is no longer able to say prayers publicly, take the sacrament, give talks in church, etc. is important, so as not to create embarrassing moments for both parties.

It also allows "the rest of us" the opportunity to help that individual through the process of repentance and eventual re-baptism. That person becomes a "prospective member", assuming he/she is willing to go through the necessary steps to get back on the straight-and-narrow.

Also for us, it is a wake-up call as to Saint-Sifting. A sobering example and object lesson was established. Never fear, more will come.

In answer to your question, this has occurred at the end of Opening Exercises for the Priesthood sessions in church - after the Aaronic Priesthood is dismissed - quite frequently over the years.

I still wear a silk tie given to me from a 70 who lost his membership in the church and towards the end of my first mission, he was rebaptized. It is a constant reminder that the repentance process is real and nobody is immune to temptation and we must constantly be on our guard. Lucifer knows our Achilles heel and he is always trying to shoot us down.

I guess it really does depend on the circumstances, and the reasons for the excommunication. A few years ago when our bishop was released suddenly for unknown reasons (he wasn't even at the sacrament when he was officially released), the new bishop did take a moment in ward council to explain that the old bishop had been excommunicated although no details were offered as to why. I'm sure he did this after instruction from the stake presidency. In this case it was appropriate for there to be some understanding in the ward concerning his status, and it was appropriately explained to the leadership in the ward.

I saw the same thing happen with my stake president as a youth (sent me on a mission). He was released, even spoke, and then was quietly excommunicated--it wasn't announced, but he lived next door to us.

As I understand it, if they are in a position to take advantage of people if they do not know of the excommunication, the membership is informed to protect them from the persons potential mischief.

JulesGP wrote:It is my understanding that in the early days of the church, they used to announce it in the meetings. Sorry I have no reference for that, correct me if I'm wrong Mahonri....?

=)) How old is Mahonri?

I have seen this done in the past but it is rare now.

When the conduct in question effects more than a few members of the Church,

Example: such as a member stealing or scamming from more than one person or conduct to involve breaking a law such as becoming a pedofile or a serious criminal offense to where the public is made aware.

A public announcement is made to ward members so that all effected parties are informed that The Church has done what is needed.

When a public Transgression happens a public excommunication is at times needed.

When a private Transgression happens a private excommunication is needed.

I have never seen it , but I have heard of it being done in cases where the one excommunicated is trying to lead others astray in the gospel, or actively seeking to teach false doctorine in an attepte to have others join with him in leaving the church. It is to warn others that this person is not in an offical church capacity to "preach", or "teach", or to be given any adherance.

Mazal wrote:

JulesGP wrote:It is my understanding that in the early days of the church, they used to announce it in the meetings. Sorry I have no reference for that, correct me if I'm wrong Mahonri....?

=)) How old is Mahonri?

If you only knew

JulesGP wrote:It is my understanding that in the early days of the church, they used to announce it in the meetings. Sorry I have no reference for that, correct me if I'm wrong Mahonri....?

In all seriousness... Mahonri usually has a lot of good info on church history. So I thought I'd ask the resident "expert" [/quote]

I am no expert and have nothing to back it up, other than I've heard it from time to time, that it was common practice for excommunications to be announced from the pulpit.

Yes, excommunications were very public in the early days. There were a lot of crazy rumors and speculation detrimental to the Church, so they always took opportunities make examples of people and do what was possible to correct any rumors, etc. I was just reading last night in the book I'm reading now (In Sacred Loneliness), where they sometimes would have public hearings at General Conference where someone would explain their case, the Prophet and others would decide if he were to lose fellowship or what have you. Maybe they could implement today? I would pop some popcorn for GC then!

My ward did this quit frequently for about 3 years 20 years or so ago but the practice was stopped. I'm sure it was humiliating for the person involved. This would only be among the Melchizedek Priesthood brethren in a closed priesthood meeting though. I remember thinking every time it occurred that I wish I hadn’t known, it made you feel awkward on how to respond to people afterwards even to those like myself that heard the news but were not involved. I'm glad the practice has stopped.

Back in the 60's, 70's, and part of the 80's, excommunications were announced at the end of Priesthood Meeting, with the Aaronic Priesthood being excused from those announcements. I remember several of those, one in particular was a very good friend of our family. As has been stated, in the last few years this is not done unless the excommunication has had some type of ramification on the Ward or Stake. As I recall part of the announcement was the plea by the Bishop to still be friendly and make the individual feel welcomed and loved to help them come back into the fold.

Why its not done today on a regular basis is due to privacy and most people do not need to know unless you were involved in the situation. If your under Church Probation or Excommunication an announcement is made in private meetings with the AP, Elders, HP leader and or RS President so the individual is not called on inadvertently for a calling, prayer or to bear testimony until such time as they are off probation or re-baptized.

Poltax wrote:Why its not done today on a regular basis is due to...

Well, also, they just don't excommunicate nearly as many members as they used to. Much softer these days.

If your under Church Probation or Excommunication an announcement is made in private meetings with the AP, Elders, HP leader and or RS President so the individual is not called on inadvertently for a calling, prayer or to bear testimony

Would the underlined part apply to non-members, I wonder? Are non-members (whether excommunicated or someone who has never been baptized) "allowed" to speak from the pulpit? Almost every month, we have non-members go up to the pulpit on Fast Sunday and talk about all manner of things. Last month, a whole family (mother with her four adult children) got up at the same time and confessed their sins for 15+ minutes - the women were very scantily clad and it was most interesting. The Bishop was sitting three feet away from them, smiling, and did nothing, said nothing - so maybe it's fine for non-members to speak from the pulpit?

This type of thing happens very frequently in our ward, so I've always assumed it was fine for non-members to speak to the congregation from the pulpit. If a never-been-baptized person can do it with the Bishop's obvious blessing, why can't an excommunicated member do it? Honest question!

That's a new one on me. I've never heard of non-members speaking in sacrament meeting. Huh?

GeeR wrote:That's a new one on me. I've never heard of non-members speaking in sacrament meeting. Huh?

It's always during Fast and Testimony meeting. They haven't been asked or assigned to speak - they just see people coming up to the pulpit from the congregation, so I guess they figure they can too. This happens a LOT in our ward though, and some very embarrassing and awful things have been said from the pulpit by non-members (and some members too, actually...). I don't know what the answer is. We're supposed to welcome and love everyone, right? Even if they're telling us about their illicit sex lives and drug use from the pulpit on the Sabbath - right? Is there a line to be drawn or what? I'm sincerely seeking here... :-\

My stake president was ex-communicated when I was growing up and he spoke and made a public apology to the stake. (I will never forget how sickly white he looked). If ever I am tempted to sin I cant help but remember his face.

There were very false rumors about why at the time. Not only until recently did I learn why. He has since been rebaptized and was a presiding high councilman over a Stake I used to lived in. The color in his face looked much better the last time I saw him.

If someone is ex-communicated for preaching apostate ideas and leading others astray, then I think these ex-communications are made public to warn any followers that they should beware of whatever false doctrine they may have bought into.

Col. Flagg wrote: He asked that no speculation occur about it and that the decision had been made unanimously by a church court. After that, he dismissed everyone.

With that he virtually gauranteed that everyone will be speculating, even those who would normally not be interested.....I don't know why they don't just go ahead an announce exactly why he was ex-ed for and curb the gossiping. But I also don't understand why callings, reorganizing wards, or welfare help from the bishop needs to be kept a 'secret'.

Back to the question, Imany years ago I lived in a community where an appostate group saw amazing growth. When members of the LDS church left and joined the others their names were read in our sacrament meetings. As the appostate growth slowed down, they stopped reading names.

90And if thy brother or sister offend many, he or she shall be chastened before many.

91And if any one offend openly, he or she shall be rebuked openly, that he or she may be ashamed. And if he or she confess not, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of God.

92If any shall offend in secret, he or she shall be rebuked in secret, that he or she may have opportunity to confess in secret to him or her whom he or she has offended, and to God, that the church may not speak reproachfully of him or her.

93And thus shall ye conduct in all things.

D&c 42.

I clerked many "ex's", they were all treated that way, now a days, it seems only if they "want the word out"?

Stella Solaris wrote:

If your under Church Probation or Excommunication an announcement is made in private meetings with the AP, Elders, HP leader and or RS President so the individual is not called on inadvertently for a calling, prayer or to bear testimony

Would the underlined part apply to non-members, I wonder? Are non-members (whether excommunicated or someone who has never been baptized) "allowed" to speak from the pulpit? Almost every month, we have non-members go up to the pulpit on Fast Sunday and talk about all manner of things. Last month, a whole family (mother with her four adult children) got up at the same time and confessed their sins for 15+ minutes - the women were very scantily clad and it was most interesting. The Bishop was sitting three feet away from them, smiling, and did nothing, said nothing - so maybe it's fine for non-members to speak from the pulpit?

This type of thing happens very frequently in our ward, so I've always assumed it was fine for non-members to speak to the congregation from the pulpit. If a never-been-baptized person can do it with the Bishop's obvious blessing, why can't an excommunicated member do it? Honest question!

IF I recall correctly - No one is supposed to speak from the pulpit unless they are a member, or else at the Presiding officer's invitation. What you quote happening is the Bishop not knowing how to stop it without offense, nor if they are less actives returning to the fold. As teenager in San Diego, in my ward we occasionally had people come up and start ranting and chastising...at some point the Bishop turned the mike off and invited the person to take their seat again. They went down and left in a huff. Didn't have much problem after that.