President Monson's conference talk RE marriage

[Amore Vero]

Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow, Elder Talmage & up to even Pres. Hinckley all taught that parents who were valiant could not only save themselves but likewise their unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom.

Obviously there are ways to save our loved ones to the Celestial kingdom though they didn't merit it. This principle has been taught in my ward many times, in Sunday School & Relief Society lessons, I would think it was taught in every ward at times.

Here are some quotes to start with if you want to study this deeper:

"You parents of the willful & the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours - long before he entrusted them to your care; & you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, & God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fullness of knowledge brings the fullness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, & the everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared - and he never taught a more comforting doctrine - that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, & sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of divine providence reaching out after them & drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; & may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving & forgiving father's heart & home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless & disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God."
"If any of you have a child 'or loved one' in that condition, do not give up. Pray for them & love them & reach out to them & help them."
Pres. Hinckley, Jordon Utah South Regional Conference, Mar. 2, 1997. (Orson R. Whitney, CR Apr. 1920, 110.)

Pres. HInckley went even further by adding 'loved ones' to this promise, not just children.

"Those born under the covenant, through all eternity, are the children of their parents. Nothing except the unpardonable sin or sin unto death, can break this tie. IF children do not sin as John says, "unto death" the parents may still feel after them & eventually bring them back to them again. Let the father & mother take a righteous course, & strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives, if they have 1 child or 100 children...If they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith & prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie & no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang. All children born under the covenant belong to their parents in eternity. But that does not mean that they because of that birthright, will inherit Celestial glory (Exaltation). The faith & faithfulness of father & mother will not save (exalt) disobedient children. Salvation (exaltation) is an individual matter, and if a person who has been born under the covenant rebels & denies the Lord, he will lose the blessings of exaltation. Every soul will be judged according to his works & the wicked cannot inherit eternal life. We cannot force salvation (exaltation) upon those who do not want it. Even our Father's children had their agency before this life & 1/3 of them rebelled. It is the duty of parents to teach their children so that they will walk uprightly & thus obtain the blessings of their birthright. But children born under the covenant, who drift away, are still the children of their parents, & the parents 'have claim upon them', & if the children have not sinned away all their rights, the parents may be able to bring them, through repentance, into the Celestial Kingdom, but not to receive the exaltation."
Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 208.

But Pres. Lorenzo Snow gave further insight than BY did, to the power valiant parents & loved ones will have to save their loved ones:

"God has fulfilled His promises to us, & our prospects are grand & glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives & our sons & daughters... If we do not get them all at once, we will have them sometime...You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons & daughters, if you succeed in passing through these trials & afflictions... You will, by the power of the Priesthood, work & labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons & daughters in the path of Exaltation & glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons & daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory & stand as saviors, & as kings & priests to our God, we will save our posterity."
Lorenzo Snow, The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 195.

"In 1919, at General Conference, Alonzo A. Hinckley, then President of the Deseret Stake of Zion, quoted Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles as follows: "I promise the Saints in the Deseret Stake of Zion, if their lives are such that they can look their sons & daughters in the face, & if any of them have gone astray, that the parents are able to say, "It is contrary to my instruction & my life's example; it is against every effort of love, long suffering, faith, prayer & devotion that that boy or girl has gone." - I promise you, fathers & mothers, that not one of them shall be lost unless they have sinned away the power to repent."
A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent & 'suffer for their sins & pay their debt to justice.'
Balm & hope abound in that counsel. We may not understand exactly how Elder Talmage's counsel will come to pass in this life, but we can understand that there is more to the relationship of righteous parents & their children then we can fully understand in this life & more help available with the problems that arise in that relationship than we grasp with our worldly logic. We are not alone in our struggle to save & preserve the sealing between us & our children."
John J. Carmack, "When Our Children Go Astray," Ensign, Feb. 1997.

"I leave my blessing upon you... may there be a sense of security & peace & love among your children, precious children every one of them, even those who may have strayed. I hope you don't lose patience with them. I hope you go on praying for them, & I don't hesitate to promise that if you do, the Lord will touch their hearts & bring them back to you with love & respect & appreciation."
Pres. Hinckley, Church News, 2 Sept. 1995, 4.

"When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them."
Elder Packer, CR Apr. 1992.

"When a seal is put upon the father & mother, it secures their posterity so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father & mother."
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:530.

"I am convinced that the Lord will force some couples who separate, without justification, after they have been sealed in the House of the Lord, back again to each other, or else they will lose their reward."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation 4:160-161.

"Adam learned that the 'bonds of marriage' are stronger than any other family bond." (Even stronger than the bond & sealing between parents & children)
Elder Perry, CR Apr. 1995, 97.

"Many of you have heavy hearts because a husband or wife has turned from righteousness to pursue evil.. Your life is filled with anguish, pain & at times, despair.....Love with out limitations... Never give up on a loved one, never!"
Elder Scott, CR Apr. 1988.

"Any man who will make his wife's comfort his 1st concern, will stay in love with her throughout their lives & through the eternity yet to come."
Pres. Hinckley, Anchorage Alaska Regional Conference, June 18, 1995. (The same is true if a wife will make her husband's comfort her 1st concern. This is true no matter what our spouse is like or if they do the same for us.)

(God would not command us to stay faithful to & love & never give up on a wicked spouse (& thus stay in love with them forever as Pres. Hinckley said we would) if it was probably for nothing & we couldn't be with them in the next life. For it's rare for them to ever repent in this life. So who would do it if they couldn't be with their errant spouse in eternity, they would just go find someone new now, instead of suffer for nothing with a wicked spouse. Brigham Young tells us why it will be worth it to never give up on an unrighteous spouse:

"If he (your husband) honors his Priesthood, & 'you' are to blame & come short of doing your duty & prove yourself 'unworthy' of Celestial Glory, it will be left to him to do what he pleases with you. You will be very glad to get to him if you find the fault was in yourself & not in him. But if you are not at fault, be not troubled about being joined to him there for no man (or woman) will have the privilege of gathering his wife (or husband) & children around him (or her) there unless he (or she) proves himself (or herself) worthy of them."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"Do you think you have obtained a bill of divorce? No, nor ever can if you have been faithful to the covenants you have made. It takes a higher power than a bill of divorce to take a woman from a man who is good & honors his Priesthood... Else the spouse is 'bound to their spouse & will be forever & ever."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"You can divorce & agree to stay away from each other but it is all foolishness & folly."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"You won't take five cents to heaven with you, not five cents. But, if you are the kind of man you ought to be, you will take her. Maybe it's the other way around, maybe she'll take you."
Pres. Hinckley, Pittsburgh Penn. Regional Conference, Priesthood Leadership Session, Apr. 27, 1996.

"There are three parts to the plan. You are in the second or the middle part, the one in which you will be tested by temptation, by trials, perhaps by tragedy.... Remember this! The line 'And they all lived happily ever after' is never written into the second act of a play. That line belongs in the third act, when the mysteries are solved & everything is put right.. Until you have a broad perspective of the eternal nature of the plan, you won't make much sense out of the inequities in life... Do not suppose that God willfully causes that which, for his own purposes, he permits."
Elder Packer, Satellite broadcast, 7 May, 1995, 1-2.

[Jason]

Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Lorenzo Snow, Elder Talmage & up to even Pres. Hinckley all taught that parents who were valiant could not only save themselves but likewise their unrighteous children to the Celestial Kingdom.

Obviously there are ways to save our loved ones to the Celestial kingdom though they didn't merit it. This principle has been taught in my ward many times, in Sunday School & Relief Society lessons, I would think it was taught in every ward at times.

Here are some quotes to start with if you want to study this deeper:

"You parents of the willful & the wayward! Don't give them up. Don't cast them off. They are not utterly lost. The shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours - long before he entrusted them to your care; & you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, & God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fullness of knowledge brings the fullness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, & the everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared - and he never taught a more comforting doctrine - that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, & sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of divine providence reaching out after them & drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; & may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving & forgiving father's heart & home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless & disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God."
"If any of you have a child 'or loved one' in that condition, do not give up. Pray for them & love them & reach out to them & help them."
Pres. Hinckley, Jordon Utah South Regional Conference, Mar. 2, 1997. (Orson R. Whitney, CR Apr. 1920, 110.)

Pres. HInckley went even further by adding 'loved ones' to this promise, not just children.

"Those born under the covenant, through all eternity, are the children of their parents. Nothing except the unpardonable sin or sin unto death, can break this tie. IF children do not sin as John says, "unto death" the parents may still feel after them & eventually bring them back to them again. Let the father & mother take a righteous course, & strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives, if they have 1 child or 100 children...If they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith & prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie & no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang. All children born under the covenant belong to their parents in eternity. But that does not mean that they because of that birthright, will inherit Celestial glory (Exaltation). The faith & faithfulness of father & mother will not save (exalt) disobedient children. Salvation (exaltation) is an individual matter, and if a person who has been born under the covenant rebels & denies the Lord, he will lose the blessings of exaltation. Every soul will be judged according to his works & the wicked cannot inherit eternal life. We cannot force salvation (exaltation) upon those who do not want it. Even our Father's children had their agency before this life & 1/3 of them rebelled. It is the duty of parents to teach their children so that they will walk uprightly & thus obtain the blessings of their birthright. But children born under the covenant, who drift away, are still the children of their parents, & the parents 'have claim upon them', & if the children have not sinned away all their rights, the parents may be able to bring them, through repentance, into the Celestial Kingdom, but not to receive the exaltation."
Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 208.

But Pres. Lorenzo Snow gave further insight than BY did, to the power valiant parents & loved ones will have to save their loved ones:

"God has fulfilled His promises to us, & our prospects are grand & glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives & our sons & daughters... If we do not get them all at once, we will have them sometime...You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons & daughters, if you succeed in passing through these trials & afflictions... You will, by the power of the Priesthood, work & labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons & daughters in the path of Exaltation & glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons & daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory & stand as saviors, & as kings & priests to our God, we will save our posterity."
Lorenzo Snow, The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 195.

"In 1919, at General Conference, Alonzo A. Hinckley, then President of the Deseret Stake of Zion, quoted Elder James E. Talmage of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles as follows: "I promise the Saints in the Deseret Stake of Zion, if their lives are such that they can look their sons & daughters in the face, & if any of them have gone astray, that the parents are able to say, "It is contrary to my instruction & my life's example; it is against every effort of love, long suffering, faith, prayer & devotion that that boy or girl has gone." - I promise you, fathers & mothers, that not one of them shall be lost unless they have sinned away the power to repent."
A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent & 'suffer for their sins & pay their debt to justice.'
Balm & hope abound in that counsel. We may not understand exactly how Elder Talmage's counsel will come to pass in this life, but we can understand that there is more to the relationship of righteous parents & their children then we can fully understand in this life & more help available with the problems that arise in that relationship than we grasp with our worldly logic. We are not alone in our struggle to save & preserve the sealing between us & our children."
John J. Carmack, "When Our Children Go Astray," Ensign, Feb. 1997.

"I leave my blessing upon you... may there be a sense of security & peace & love among your children, precious children every one of them, even those who may have strayed. I hope you don't lose patience with them. I hope you go on praying for them, & I don't hesitate to promise that if you do, the Lord will touch their hearts & bring them back to you with love & respect & appreciation."
Pres. Hinckley, Church News, 2 Sept. 1995, 4.

"When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them."
Elder Packer, CR Apr. 1992.

"When a seal is put upon the father & mother, it secures their posterity so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father & mother."
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:530.

"I am convinced that the Lord will force some couples who separate, without justification, after they have been sealed in the House of the Lord, back again to each other, or else they will lose their reward."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation 4:160-161.

"Adam learned that the 'bonds of marriage' are stronger than any other family bond." (Even stronger than the bond & sealing between parents & children)
Elder Perry, CR Apr. 1995, 97.

"Many of you have heavy hearts because a husband or wife has turned from righteousness to pursue evil.. Your life is filled with anguish, pain & at times, despair.....Love with out limitations... Never give up on a loved one, never!"
Elder Scott, CR Apr. 1988.

(God would not command us to stay faithful to & love & never give up on a wicked spouse if it was probably for nothing & we couldn't be with them in the next life. For it's rare for them to ever repent in this life. So who would do it if they couldn't be with their errant spouse in eternity, they would just go find someone new now, instead of suffer for nothing with a wicked spouse. Brigham Young tells us why it will be worth it to never give up on an unrighteous spouse:

"If he (your husband) honors his Priesthood, & 'you' are to blame & come short of doing your duty & prove yourself 'unworthy' of Celestial Glory, it will be left to him to do what he pleases with you. You will be very glad to get to him if you find the fault was in yourself & not in him. But if you are not at fault, be not troubled about being joined to him there for no man (or woman) will have the privilege of gathering his wife (or husband) & children around him (or her) there unless he (or she) proves himself (or herself) worthy of them."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"Do you think you have obtained a bill of divorce? No, nor ever can if you have been faithful to the covenants you have made. It takes a higher power than a bill of divorce to take a woman from a man who is good & honors his Priesthood... Else the spouse is 'bound to their spouse & will be forever & ever."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"You can divorce & agree to stay away from each other but it is all foolishness & folly."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

"You won't take five cents to heaven with you, not five cents. But, if you are the kind of man you ought to be, you will take her. Maybe it's the other way around, maybe she'll take you."
Pres. Hinckley, Pittsburgh Penn. Regional Conference, Priesthood Leadership Session, Apr. 27, 1996.

"There are three parts to the plan. You are in the second or the middle part, the one in which you will be tested by temptation, by trials, perhaps by tragedy.... Remember this! The line 'And they all lived happily ever after' is never written into the second act of a play. That line belongs in the third act, when the mysteries are solved & everything is put right.. Until you have a broad perspective of the eternal nature of the plan, you won't make much sense out of the inequities in life... Do not suppose that God willfully causes that which, for his own purposes, he permits."
Elder Packer, Satellite broadcast, 7 May, 1995, 1-2.

....sandy ground!!!

...you are mixing salvation and exaltation.....two very different results!

....also ignoring the required repentance which means becoming reconciled to God's commandments - i.e. 100% obedient

Do you rate higher than God? He is perfect yet 1/3 of His children were cast off. What about Adam (Michael) & Eve? Cain is going to be brought back from a Son of Perdition to dwell in the Celestial kingdom with them? Laman and Lemuel who repeatedly conspired in their hearts to kill their brother and their father despite multiple witnesses (angel, voice of God, shocked, calming of the seas, etc)?

[Amore Vero]

....sandy ground!!!

...you are mixing salvation and exaltation.....two very different results!

....also ignoring the required repentance which means becoming reconciled to God's commandments - i.e. 100% obedient

Do you rate higher than God? He is perfect yet 1/3 of His children were cast off. What about Adam (Michael) & Eve? Cain is going to be brought back from a Son of Perdition to dwell in the Celestial kingdom with them? Laman and Lemuel who repeatedly conspired in their hearts to kill their brother and their father despite multiple witnesses (angel, voice of God, shocked, calming of the seas, etc)?

These quotes do not mix salvation & exaltation, they are very clear. Brigham Young was referring to 'salvation' as 'exaltation'.

Yet, Lorenzo Snow added to these teachings & said that unrighteous children, who repent in the next life, can even attain Exaltation.

The quotes explain that all unrighteous loved ones will have to 'repent fully' in Spirit Prison before their valiant parents can help get them to the Celestial Kingdom.

The 1/3 that Heavenly Father lost are a different story for they were not even willing to come down to this earth. This principle is only for those on this earth. The 1/3 did 'sin unto death' even before coming here, so they lost the ability to be saved by righteous parents.

For if you read closer, it says that unrighteous children can still repent in the next life & be saved by valiant parents ONLY IF they did not 'sin unto death' (commit the unpardonable sin).

[Jason]

....sandy ground!!!

...you are mixing salvation and exaltation.....two very different results!

....also ignoring the required repentance which means becoming reconciled to God's commandments - i.e. 100% obedient

Do you rate higher than God? He is perfect yet 1/3 of His children were cast off. What about Adam (Michael) & Eve? Cain is going to be brought back from a Son of Perdition to dwell in the Celestial kingdom with them? Laman and Lemuel who repeatedly conspired in their hearts to kill their brother and their father despite multiple witnesses (angel, voice of God, shocked, calming of the seas, etc)?

These quotes do not mix salvation & exaltation, they are very clear. Brigham Young was referring to 'salvation' as 'exaltation'.

Yet, Lorenzo Snow added to these teachings & said that unrighteous children, who repent in the next life, can even attain Exaltation.

The quotes explain that all unrighteous loved ones will have to 'repent fully' in Spirit Prison before their valiant parents can help get them to the Celestial Kingdom.

The 1/3 that Heavenly Father lost are a different story for they were not even willing to come down to this earth. This principle is only for those on this earth. The 1/3 did 'sin unto death' even before coming here, so they lost the ability to be saved by righteous parents.

For if you read closer, it says that unrighteous children can still repent in the next life & be saved by valiant parents ONLY IF they did not 'sin unto death' (commit the unpardonable sin).

I don't think anyone has stated that they can't be saved if they repent......its if they repent not during their probationary period or prior to the judgment.

The principles remain.....they will not be exalted without repentance and living the laws required for that particular kingdom. You cannot draw one to you in the Celestial Kingdom if that person is not willing to abide Celestial law. Otherwise God would cease to be God.

[HeirofNumenor]

And that is always the red flag whenever one quotes the prophets about being able to save their spouse and children who are not worthy of it...it is so easier to have hope when you read things like "don't give up...love them...they will come back to you..." but always overlooked is the fact they they themselves must CHOOSE to REPENT...and actually do so fully....then live their lives fully worthy of exhaltation...

[Amore Vero]

I don't think anyone has stated that they can't be saved if they repent......its if they repent not during their probationary period or prior to the judgment.

The principles remain.....they will not be exalted without repentance and living the laws required for that particular kingdom. You cannot draw one to you in the Celestial Kingdom if that person is not willing to abide Celestial law. Otherwise God would cease to be God.

That is not what these quotes are saying. They are saying that errant children can repent 'in the next life', & still go on to either work out their Exaltation or at least get to live in the Celestial Kingdom with their parents, though they would not have merited it by themselves.

It's the story of the Prodical Son, in an eternal light. Those children are there in the Celestial Kingdom only because of the love & righteousness of their parents, not their own merits, for they had spent their inheritance (their earning of the Cel. K. on their own) by their unrighteousness on earth.

[HeirofNumenor]

"If he (your husband) honors his Priesthood, & 'you' are to blame & come short of doing your duty & prove yourself 'unworthy' of Celestial Glory, it will be left to him to do what he pleases with you. You will be very glad to get to him if you find the fault was in yourself & not in him. But if you are not at fault, be not troubled about being joined to him there for no man (or woman) will have the privilege of gathering his wife (or husband) & children around him (or her) there unless he (or she) proves himself (or herself) worthy of them."
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, June 28, 1874.

and this is where most of us divorced people are, who was NOT the primary offender in the marriage...

[HeirofNumenor]

That is not what these quotes are saying. They are saying that errant children can repent 'in the next life', & still go on to either work out their Exaltation or at least get to live in the Celestial Kingdom with their parents, though they would not have merited it by themselves.

It's the story of the Prodical Son, in an eternal light. Those children are there in the Celestial Kingdom only because of the love & righteousness of their parents, not their own merits, for they had spent their inheritance (their earning of the Cel. K. on their own) by their unrighteousness on earth.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree....why should adult children repent themselves, if their parents can be righteous and loving, and get the kids to the celestial glory? Why should a man or woman wait until marriage to have sexual relations, when they can sleep with anything that walks - and they will be in the celestial Kingdom NOT BECAUSE THEY TRULY REPENTED AND WERE RIGHTEOUS, but because their parents loved them?

[Jason]

I don't think anyone has stated that they can't be saved if they repent......its if they repent not during their probationary period or prior to the judgment.

The principles remain.....they will not be exalted without repentance and living the laws required for that particular kingdom. You cannot draw one to you in the Celestial Kingdom if that person is not willing to abide Celestial law. Otherwise God would cease to be God.

That is not what these quotes are saying. They are saying that errant children can repent 'in the next life', & still go on to either work out their Exaltation or at least get to live in the Celestial Kingdom with their parents, though they would not have merited it by themselves.

It's the story of the Prodical Son, in an eternal light. Those children are there in the Celestial Kingdom only because of the love & righteousness of their parents, not their own merits, for they had spent their inheritance (their earning of the Cel. K. on their own) by their unrighteousness on earth.

I'm not in disagreement with the quotes...just your interpretation. If the children don't merit it by themselves....they won't get there! To say otherwise is to cast off the standard works. Nothing in scripture backs up your interpretation.....and fyi - the father didn't promise the prodigal son everything he had as was pointed out to the valiant son.

Your quotes don't back up your interpretation - as pointed out by the focus on repentance....which means becoming obedient to God's will.

[Amore Vero]

If the children don't merit it by themselves....they won't get there! To say otherwise is to cast off the standard works. Nothing in scripture backs up your interpretation.....and fyi - the father didn't promise the prodigal son everything he had as was pointed out to the valiant son.

Your quotes don't back up your interpretation - as pointed out by the focus on repentance....which means becoming obedient to God's will.

If you say they won't get into the CK then why do these Prophets say they will? Sorry, I have to go with what these Prophets are saying. I know this is a true principle.

How can unrighteous children who never repent in this life 'merit' the Celestial Kingdom? They can't, it is purely a gift from valiant parents. For these quotes definately say 'unrighteous children who never repent in 'this' life CAN go to the Celestial kingdom, after they repent in the next life, IF they have valiant parents.

I didn't say that the Prodical son gets 'everything' the righteous son does, but he does get to live in the father's house (CK), not as a servant but as a family member.

[HeirofNumenor]

I think the main point of the quotes (as intended by the prophets and apostles themselves) is that if parents completely love their children, are 100% faithful to the gospel, covenants, and each other, living so uprightly to provide a great example to the children...the Atonement will take effect where because of the love of parents, etc...their will be INCREASED POWER of the Holy Ghost to influence the wayward child/adult to eventually remember their childhood teachings...and CHOOSE TO CHANGE their lives around....(my parents are desperately hoping this will happen to my sister).

The part that is often overlooked - including by several on this forum - is that the child/spouse MUST FULLY CHANGE/REPENT & live worthily, or suffer it out in the spirit prison until all sins are paid for (which puts him the equivalent of a convicted felon who served a prison sentence - paid the price, but likely did not have the mighty change of heart, didn't repent because the sins were wrong, but rather because he got caught - kind of like Pres. Bill Clinton re: Monica Lewinsky). Once the spirit has suffered for his wickedness...he then at Final Judgement is assigned to either Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom...he can never enter the Celestial Kingdom despite his parents' love - because he didn't change his life around IN THIS LIFE/mortality.

[Amore Vero]

Once the spirit has suffered for his wickedness...he then at Final Judgement is assigned to either Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom...he can never enter the Celestial Kingdom despite his parents' love - because he didn't change his life around IN THIS LIFE/mortality.

If that were true than these Prophets wouldn't have even brought this subject up, for their whole point was to say that 'valiant parents can save wicked children to the Celestial Kingdom'. It's the 'reward' these parents get for being so valiant, it has little to do with the children & what they earned here on earth.

It's very clear, I have heard this principle taught many times in church & by many LDS people, it's not new.

The whole point of these quotes is that the Prophet are comforting parents of 'wicked children' who never repent in 'this' life, that their valiancy as parent will still get their children to the Celestial KIngdom, though not necessarily Exaltation.

Of course though these unrighteous children will have to repent in Spirit Prison before they go on to the Celestial K., but they will not be like a criminal getting out of prison, they will all have completely repented & have a change of heart & now have righteous desires & accept the Gospel & want to do everything right. (See my other post the other day in the thread called "Ex marries boy or girl" for quotes about how 'all must repent fully in the next life'.

[Jason]

If the children don't merit it by themselves....they won't get there! To say otherwise is to cast off the standard works. Nothing in scripture backs up your interpretation.....and fyi - the father didn't promise the prodigal son everything he had as was pointed out to the valiant son.

Your quotes don't back up your interpretation - as pointed out by the focus on repentance....which means becoming obedient to God's will.

If you say they won't get into the CK then why do these Prophets say they will? Sorry, I have to go with what these Prophets are saying. I know this is a true principle.

How can unrighteous children who never repent in this life 'merit' the Celestial Kingdom? They can't, it is purely a gift from valiant parents. For these quotes definately say 'unrighteous children who never repent in 'this' life CAN go to the Celestial kingdom, after they repent in the next life, IF they have valiant parents.

I didn't say that the Prodical son gets 'everything' the righteous son does, but he does get to live in the father's house (CK), not as a servant but as a family member.

You are ignoring key parts of the quotes when you interpret them that way as well as and leaving context out of the others....but each to their own.

[HeirofNumenor]

Once the spirit has suffered for his wickedness...he then at Final Judgement is assigned to either Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom...he can never enter the Celestial Kingdom despite his parents' love - because he didn't change his life around IN THIS LIFE/mortality.

If that were true than these Prophets wouldn't have even brought this subject up, for their whole point was to say that 'valiant parents can save wicked children to the Celestial Kingdom'. It's the 'reward' these parents get for being so valiant, it has little to do with the children & what they earned here on earth.

It's very clear, I have heard this principle taught many times in church & by many LDS people, it's not new.

The whole point of these quotes is that the Prophet are comforting parents of 'wicked children' who never repent in 'this' life, that their valiancy as parent will still get their children to the Celestial KIngdom, though not necessarily Exaltation.

Of course though these unrighteous children will have to repent in Spirit Prison before they go on to the Celestial K., but they will not be like a criminal getting out of prison, they will all have completely repented & have a change of heart & now have righteous desires & accept the Gospel & want to do everything right. (See my other post the other day in the thread called "Ex marries boy or girl" for quotes about how 'all must repent fully in the next life'.

So by your line of reasoning...who ends up in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms? Wicked Children of wicked parents?

[Amore Vero]

So by your line of reasoning...who ends up in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms? Wicked Children of wicked parents?

Apparently. That will be part of the parent's eternal remorse, to know they not only didn't save themselves but that their children couldn't be saved either because they didn't keep their covenants as parents.

No one should expect anyone to save them anyway, for maybe even our parents won't make it. Plus, even if our parents might save us, they may not be able to get us Exaltation. So we still must all strive to be worthy of such ourselves.

If you have an errant spouse or child you understand how hard it is to have this unconditional love for them the rest of their life. So Heavenly Father rewards those who are so valiant to have such divine love, & gives them great power to save their loved ones whom they are sealed to.

[shadow]

It's important to note that the quotes Amore gave showed that repentance is necessary and can be accomplished after this temporal physical life and most likely most if not all will do it (repent). The atonement is eternal. Too many think it ends at death, it doesn't.

And Heirs interpretation of those who repent is incorrect. They truly repent, not like Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky. I'm sure they will really repent some day. A man can't be saved in ignorance. Lots of teaching in the spirit world.

"The shepherd will find his sheep. They were his before they were yours - long before he entrusted them to your care; & you cannot begin to love them as he loves them. They have but strayed in ignorance from the Path of Right, & God is merciful to ignorance. Only the fullness of knowledge brings the fullness of accountability. Our Heavenly Father is far more merciful, infinitely more charitable, than even the best of his servants, & the everlasting Gospel is mightier in power to save than our narrow finite minds can comprehend." Pres. Hinckley, Jordon Utah South Regional Conference, Mar. 2, 1997. (Orson R. Whitney, CR Apr. 1920, 110.)

[Squally]

and this is where most of us divorced people are, who was NOT the primary offender in the marriage...

Question. Do most divorced people believe that they were not the primary offender......

[HeirofNumenor]

Question. Do most divorced people believe that they were not the primary offender......

That they may...however, it usually clear to 3rd parties who was the main problem...the reality was what I referred to, not the self-perception.

[Squally]

Question. Do most divorced people believe that they were not the primary offender......

That they may...however, it usually clear to 3rd parties who was the main problem...the reality was what I referred to, not the self-perception.

it is easier to find fault with someone else and blame your own problems on them, especially when it ends in divorce. Divorce should not be a casual choice. equally guilty spouses can convice third parties to back them up, but that means nothing.

[Squally]

Question. Do most divorced people believe that they were not the primary offender......

That they may...however, it usually clear to 3rd parties who was the main problem...the reality was what I referred to, not the self-perception.

the sad part is that most divorcees will tell you that they were in the right and that they have others who will back them up and confirm this. I have not actually had the experience of knowing someone who has been divorce who doesn't blame their ex. This even applies if they had committed adultery. They will blame the spouse for their adultery. Divorce can be a great self deception of blame and the inability to learn because of selfishness. Which is why people who divorce are much more likely to fail at marriage with each attempt.

Divorce statistics in America for marriage
Marriage Divorce statistics (in percent)
First Marriage 45% to 50% marriages end in divorce
Second Marriage 60% to 67% marriages end in divorce
Third Marriage 70% to 73% marriages end in divorce

* Source of this Divorce Statistics: Jennifer Baker, Forest Institute of Professional Psychology,Springfield

**Enrichment journal also gives simliar divorce statistics in America
The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

[Amore Vero]

most divorcees will tell you that they were in the right and that they have others who will back them up and confirm this.

I have also found this to be so true. Most divorcees think & claim that the 'other spouse' was the cause of the divorce & that they either had to leave for their own safety or were left unjustifiably by the other. At least one of the spouses in every divorce, is usually not telling the whole truth, unless they are in the repentant stage.

For at least one spouse in every divorce is NOT justified & innocent (or there wouldn't be a divorce), & thus at least one spouse is guilty of some form of abuse which caused the divorce & is also committing adultery & abuse by divorcing & dating & abandoning the other.

We must be able to tell for sure which one that is, so we aren't deceived & accountable for supporting the wrong one & their evil, while not helping & giving all our support to the innocent spouse.

And while no spouse is perfectly innocent, if they loved their spouse & were trying to make it work & were not committing sins on the level of church discipline then they probably were fairly innocent & should be supported, especially if the other spouse 'was' committing huge sins like abuse, adultery, in any form, etc.

Thus the need for close family, friends & leaders to have a good knowledge of abuse & what's right & wrong in marriage & the Spirit to discern truth from error, & do their very best to inquire & find out which one is the guilty spouse, or they will usually easily fall for supporting the abuse, adultery & abandonment of divorce, & will share in the punishments for it all if they supported the wrong one & didn't speak up for & support & protect the innocent spouse.

Plus, it does the guilty spouse no good to have support in their sins, for then they will probably never have help to repent, before it's too late.

Of course though, friends & family almost always think their 'own' family member or friend was the innocent one & often turn a blind eye, despite how guilty their friend or family member may be.

Most family & friends & leaders even, seem very easily deceived by a guilty spouse & their stories of being the victim. Especially the women & men who date them, for they usually just believe whatever story they give them without looking deeper & getting both sides to the story from the other spouse. They certainly need to know for sure so they don't 'date or marry' someone who is secretly not justified in their divorce & thus just out committing adultery.