President Monson's conference talk RE marriage

[Col. Flagg]

I wanted to throw this out there for discussion since I didn't agree 100% with it. During conference over the weekend, Pres. Monson spoke about marriage and the importance of our young people finding a suitable companion with whom to settle down with and start a family, etc. instead of simply enjoying the ease of life and being satisfied by being single and traveling, hanging out with friends, having the time to do what you want when you want, etc. The impression I got from him was that whether it be a young woman or a young man of marriage age (21+), that they have a sacred obligation and duty to find someone with the same ideals, goals, spiritual values, etc. (wanting a family, temple marriage, steady career, et. al.) in order to fulfill Heavenly Father's plan of eternal life with your spouse, family and children in the celestial kingdom and that if you are able to find someone like that, what are you waiting for?

While I think the advice is good, I think Pres. Monson left out one very crucial and important factor in determining whether or not to marry someone and that is the deep emotional attachment and love for someone. I know I couldn't just marry some girl I was physcially attracted to who shared the same values and goals I did if I didn't love her or have feelings for her. There is a big difference and I think Pres. Monson missed it. I know far too many young people who have done just that (simply marrying the first good, spritual person they dated whom they were attracted to without being 'in love' per se), figuring it would work out just fine since they shared similar goals and values, but then after a while, with no real genuine love for the other person, they end up having problems and then divorce. I'm curious to know what others think about this? I know I would and could never marry someone I didn't have deep emotional attachment to or 'feelings for' and would probably rather remain single than marrying for the sake of marrying. Thoughts?

[natasha]

I don't think Pres. Monson meant for anyone to marry someone they didn't love.

[Original_Intent]

It's a fine line. I think on the one hand, some people expect to feel some earthshattering amazing love for the person, which I think is not the right thing to look for.

I think this is kind of like expecting the full grown tree, and I think that often THOSE are the marriages that fail as those intense emotional feelings - if not fade, certainly wax and wane over time.

On the other hand, some people marry because their potential spouse met their checklist of attributes, but there is no love there. I know some old-timers who felt that a good man and a good woman, if they did all that they should, love would come. And I tend to agree with that, although I would hope that at least the seed of love (not to be confused or even jokingly referred to as anything other than the beginning of love) has been planted.

If you feel that this is a spirit who Heavenly Father wants you to spend eternity with, and who also is willing and even desiring to spend eternity with you - how could you NOT love this man or woman?

[Original_Intent]

I don't think Pres. Monson meant for anyone to marry someone they didn't love.

agreed.

[Darren]

This is a very important subject , in what we call God's Law. And is not a trivial matter of some transient importance.

In the Germanic language we have the word Wedlock.

When Jesus Christ appeared to the lost tribes of Israel in the North, Saxland, Denmark and Scandinavia, he had his temple built, there on the north shore of Lake Law (Uppsala, Sweden). After telling them how to live by the law, which is to live by keeping Him in their minds always. There was a problem as a result. The men had to also be told that they had to also pick one of the young ladies in their town or county, from their chosen community, and also love her. The previous problem is that all to often men, when told to keep their mind on what is good they forget about the ladies. So Jesus Christ had to tell them that it was a commandment to enter into Wedlock, which was explained was Woden's Law.

Since then it has been a commandment unto the young men to take the young woman of his choice, to get married, at one of the Church's Temples.

In Germanic Europe, those men and their community would put enough emphasis on that commandment for Wedlock that the encouragement was to get married before a man reached many more years than around 18 years old. Only the Catholic Assembly's maintainers of the Statecraft system would forgo Wedlock.

So culturally it is not considered a good thing to forgo marriage for long after about 18 years old, unless you subscribe to Catholic Statecraft by going to the University to become a Bachelor, to remain forever as such as a manager of the Statecraft Babylonian System.

God Bless,
Darren

[ChelC]

I agree with Natasha and OI. I don't think he meant you should marry someone you don't love.

I also think if you can't have both love and respect, a marriage built on respect is more likely to be successful than one based on love without respect. Of course you should have both, though.

[Darren]

The real problem with getting married is the saturation of Babylonian Statecraft influence in our Church.

Because the Prophets today tell us to get as much (University) education as possible, they are throwing our LDS youth directly into the Babylonian Statecraft System, that comes right out of the Greek -- that in pursuing logic, at a university, you can have all the sex you want, but that you can never marry, as man belongs to the state, and the candidate for Bachelorhood cannot divide his alligence between the State and another.

In Germanic Countries they did not have Greek styled universities, they did what we call, apprenticeships. An apprenticeship is all about doing all you do in Good Faith. Couple Good Faith (seeking God in all you do) with the law to wed, and you have the motto of Brigham Young, Breed Them Young.

God Bless,
Darren

[Original_Intent]

If you are striving to earnestly follow father, and meet someone of the opposite sex who is also so striving,
and you each see each other as God sees you both,
how can you NOT love each other?

[shadow]

I think you misunderstood the prophet Col. When it comes out it might be a good idea to read what he actually said. Note though that he also quoted President Hunter I believe who said something to the affect that having a happy marriage isn't so much about marrying the right person as being the right person. We can look at history and see that there were many marriages that were assigned. Look at polygamy in the early church for example, they didn't date!

[EmmaLee]

...having a happy marriage isn't so much about marrying the right person as being the right person.

+1 I remember that quote. Beautifully said and very true.

[Col. Flagg]

I don't think Pres. Monson meant for anyone to marry someone they didn't love.

He never brought up this aspect of it and so that is why I wanted to throw it out there. I've known far too many young couples who are now divorced where a young woman simply married a returned missionary because he was cute, served a mission, wanted a temple marriage, etc., etc., etc., and so what could go wrong, but then the young man ends up being more interested in other things such as hanging out with friends, playing video games or what have you and that his mission was his time of having served the Lord and then not being serious and devoted to the marriage and his spouse since the sealing was done and now he's got admittance to the celestial kingdom and more often than not, the marriage ends up being dissolved. I believe the average dating time for most couples nowadays before marriage is proposed is about 3 months - I don't believe that is long enough to really get to know someone. In some cases, it might work out, but in most, I would say there are going to be major issues down the road.

I just don't think Pres. Monson did any of our youth any favors by implying that you need to hurry and get married if you are of marriage age because you don't want time to pass you by. I would have liked to have heard him advocate patience and to let things happen naturally instead of someone forcing the issue because the prophet wants them to get married. It would have been nice to also hear him say that it is important to date the same person for a while and getting to know them inside and out before considering marriage, but that's just me I guess - would have been nice to hear him mention love and affection too as opposed to primarily compatability. Again, I'm not finding fault with anything he said, I just think he could have said some other things to help the youth prepare more spiritually and intellectually before settling down with someone for life.

[WhereCanITurn4Peace]

having a happy marriage isn't so much about marrying the right person as being the right person.

Wise words! Similarly, I've heard that the qualities you want in a spouse should be the ones you are striving to cultivate within yourself.

Too often in this day and age of entitlement, many believe they "deserve" it all, when they themselves should be preparing to be the best that they can be.

[Col. Flagg]

If you are striving to earnestly follow father, and meet someone of the opposite sex who is also so striving,
and you each see each other as God sees you both,
how can you NOT love each other?

OI, I think for a marriage to succeed (eternal happiness), both people have to be attracted to each other spiritually, physically and emotionally. If one or more of those is missing, that's a recipe for disaster (in most cases, IMO).

[pjbrownie]

Being in love is sort of a concept that comes from the Romantic era of the late 19th Century. Love is really a choice. Factors that influence how we feel about the opposite sex are often culturally based. And in this culture, it's getting harder and harder to find that choice--they must be nubile, smart, sexy, funny, hot, skinny to size 0 or 2 yet busty, kind, athletic or fit, and the list goes on and on. If you are a man you have to be full headed, rich, broad shouldered, smart, funny, a strong chin, tall, spiritual, have been a leader in the mission or the church, got an advanced degree, sexy, and can perform in the bedroom along with other unmentionable attributes. The older you get, the more that list grows. People who marry younger, go in a little more blind, which can help in creating an atmosphere to grow love despite setbacks in expectations. The baby boomers have ruined the younger generations because of the prevalence of divorce. It's not the problems in marriage that are causing divorce, such as video games and other interests, it's how we are taught to deal with the problems that will almost be inevitable anyway. Instead of working through it, we find partner 2.0 or 3.0. This is the problem, not getting married younger.

I say this as a man who got married at 31. I was blinded by the cultural customs of what I thought I needed. I found something far better, and only got married when I decided to get off my butt, and worry about the few things that matter. I chose to fall in love with my wife, and I have fallen in love more deeply than I had ever expected.

[Col. Flagg]

I was blinded by the cultural customs of what I thought I needed. I found something far better, and only got married when I decided to get off my butt, and worry about the few things that matter. I chose to fall in love with my wife, and I have fallen in love more deeply than I had ever expected.

But... is love something you choose? I think it either happens naturally or it doesn't. I don't think it is something you can choose - love has often been defined as 'a feeling you feel that you've never felt before' - that isn't something you can 'choose' per se, IMO anyway.

[shadow]

I believe the average dating time for most couples nowadays before marriage is proposed is about 3 months - I don't believe that is long enough to really get to know someone. In some cases, it might work out, but in most, I would say there are going to be major issues down the road.

It would have been nice to also hear him say that it is important to date the same person for a while and getting to know them inside and out before considering marriage, but that's just me I guess

Once you get a confirmation from the Holy Ghost about marrying a person you shouldn't delay. Those that lack faith will stall and delay, but those who know better are quick to be obedient

[loquaciousmomma]

I wanted to throw this out there for discussion since I didn't agree 100% with it. During conference over the weekend, Pres. Monson spoke about marriage and the importance of our young people finding a suitable companion with whom to settle down with and start a family, etc. instead of simply enjoying the ease of life and being satisfied by being single and traveling, hanging out with friends, having the time to do what you want when you want, etc. The impression I got from him was that whether it be a young woman or a young man of marriage age (21+), that they have a sacred obligation and duty to find someone with the same ideals, goals, spiritual values, etc. (wanting a family, temple marriage, steady career, et. al.) in order to fulfill Heavenly Father's plan of eternal life with your spouse, family and children in the celestial kingdom and that if you are able to find someone like that, what are you waiting for?

While I think the advice is good, I think Pres. Monson left out one very crucial and important factor in determining whether or not to marry someone and that is the deep emotional attachment and love for someone. I know I couldn't just marry some girl I was physcially attracted to who shared the same values and goals I did if I didn't love her or have feelings for her. There is a big difference and I think Pres. Monson missed it. I know far too many young people who have done just that (simply marrying the first good, spritual person they dated whom they were attracted to without being 'in love' per se), figuring it would work out just fine since they shared similar goals and values, but then after a while, with no real genuine love for the other person, they end up having problems and then divorce. I'm curious to know what others think about this? I know I would and could never marry someone I didn't have deep emotional attachment to or 'feelings for' and would probably rather remain single than marrying for the sake of marrying. Thoughts?

When I was growing up, my ideas about love came from popular culture. I learned later in life that they were misguided at best.

I was surprised when I read Stephen Covey's teaching that love is a verb, not a noun. (Or At least it should be.) He tells a story about a man who complained to him that he didn't love his wife anymore and didn't know what to do. The man was annoyed when Mr. Covey replied "love her". Finally he clarified that this man needed to serve his wife and behave lovingly toward her and the emotion of love would follow those acts.

I also learned that in the Victorian era, women were loathe to marry a man they found attractive. The wise chose a man who was a good provider and a decent man over one that they found attractive and even felt love for. Divorce was rare in those days.

What about arranged marriages? I had a friend in high school who was from India, her parents' marriage was arranged, and they were happily married. They had learned to love each other.

Love is the product of service, think of the missionaries who have such profound love for the people in the areas they serve? They have developed love through service.

Hollywood teaches that there is one true love for each person and that it is kosher for someone to leave their spouse if they 'realize' this wasn't the "one" and find the real "one" after the marriage.

The leaders of the church have taughtthat there is no such thing as "the one". Any two people that are mentally healthy and spiritually strong can have a successful marriage, so long as they are willing to selflessly serve their spouse and overlook irritations and faults with loving forgiveness.

If you are attracted to a woman and she is attracted to you, date her. If she is righteous, and you get along well with her, court her. When you feel ready to marry her, ask the Lord if he approves of the union, if you receive an affirmative answer, take her to the temple.

The bottom line is that courtship and marriage are work. Those deep emotional attachments develop as a result of time together and service to one another.

If you wait for someone who you have a ready-made love for, you might be waiting forever...

[reese]

What about arranged marriages? I had a friend in high school who was from India, her parents' marriage was arranged, and they were happily married. They had learned to love each other.

Love is the product of service, think of the missionaries who have such profound love for the people in the areas they serve? They have developed love through service.

Hollywood teaches that there is one true love for each person and that it is kosher for someone to leave their spouse if they 'realize' this wasn't the "one" and find the real "one" after the marriage.

The leaders of the church have taughtthat there is no such thing as "the one". Any two people that are mentally healthy and spiritually strong can have a successful marriage, so long as they are willing to selflessly serve their spouse and overlook irritations and faults with loving forgiveness.

If you are attracted to a woman and she is attracted to you, date her. If she is righteous, and you get along well with her, court her. When you feel ready to marry her, ask the Lord if he approves of the union, if you receive an affirmative answer, take her to the temple.

The bottom line is that courtship and marriage are work. Those deep emotional attachments develop as a result of time together and service to one another.

If you wait for someone who you have a ready-made love for, you might be waiting forever...

I agree with what you are saying, mostly. Serving someone will cause you to love them. I have read the words of church leaders that say there is no such thing as "the one", and I don't agree entirely. For example both mine and my husbands patriarchal blessings say that there is "one" certain person in this world whom we will be given, and receive, respectively.

I think we should be looking for love. I remember dating a few guys who really liked me, and try as I might, I just could not love them. And I tried, they were good, worthy, "RM"s", kind, responsible, etc, etc. But the spark just was not there. I supose I could have married them, and been happy if we both were commited to making it work. But knowing what I know now after being married to someone who I unhesitatingly call my "soulmate", being married to any of the others would have been awful. I'm like Col, I would prefer to remain single I think.

[Elizabeth]

How wonderful for you reese to have found your soulmate

[Original_Intent]

loquacious and reese, really like what you both added, even though they were somewhat contrasting rather than complementary views.

Bottom line, I realize some singles are feeling undue pressure, I really think all that was being said was don't get so caught up in the dating scene and play the field for the sake of playing the field. If you are single, of marriagable age, are striving to make yourself as attractive (in all respects) as possible to potential mates, and you are doing what you can to seek that person - I really didn't hear condemnation. And if depsite all that you don't find someone or have nto found someone, I don;t think you were being spoken to.

But I know plenty of men and women who get hung up on things like thinking "maybe I could do better" or just flat out having too much fun going out with a variety of people. I think anyone that mentioned the issue were pretty specific about who they were speaking to.

[Col. Flagg]

How wonderful for you reese to have found your soulmate

Hey, Kip found LaFawnduh... if he can find someone, anyone can, right? )

[patriotsaint]

Love is a choice. You don't fall in or out of love, you chose to love or not to love.

I don't think President Monson missed anything. My love for my wife is 100 times deeper today than the day we were wed. Does that mean I should have waited? Absolutely not! Love is like anything else in the gospel. If you plant the seed and nurture it, you will reap fruit. You don't "grow" your love to maturity and then marry....it matures all throughout your marriage.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfire]

my uncle divorced his wife of a great many years and then found his "meant to be" "true love." Of course that is complete rubbish. It is a very important decision, probably the most important one. There will always be people that wake up next to someone that shocks them in a bad way, in a way they couldn't foresee. If the Spirit didn't stop them from making that mistake, then likely it wasn't one and will ultimately be for there best good. Like the conference talk stated regarding trials, we maybe should even pray for more of them... Even so, we should give all we have to give no matter the person we marry, and I would wager it is far more important to marry at all, than to marry the perfect match that will never come.

I think my wife and I are as close as meant to be and made for each other, soulmates as can be. Still we spent decades apart and she had her life, and I had mine. We weren't two perfect halves of the same thing when we met. We are now, by choice. I am not saying that it would have worked with anyone else, but then we're hard cases. If not it would have been our imperfections that failed, not the premise.

What do I/will I tell my kids to look for? They will know when they meet a single lds person of the opposite sex as virtuous as themselves. That's about all that truly matters. Virtue should be the most attractive trait of all (and is).

[ChelC]

I think pop culture has seriously messed with our heads. Too many people seem to think that love = that butterfly feeling when love is new. That isn't love though it can be a precursor to it. Love is better than that. It's sad how many marriages fail because the couple stops acting as friends once they're married.

I agree Col. that you should be attracted to each other physically, emotionally, and spiritually... and that it can be difficult to know someone well enough to be certain you will stay attracted to them in those areas as time marches on. However, I've seen a lot of marriages struggle because people waited too long to marry and are really set in their ways, and used to having things "just so".

I think that if people who listened to Pres. Monson really hear him, they won't be led astray here. If Heavenly Father approves a union, and both parties are living as they should, things will work out.

[Mosby]

While I think the advice is good, I think Pres. Monson left out one very crucial and important factor in determining whether or not to marry someone and that is the deep emotional attachment and love for someone.

I'm sure that Thomas would love it if you informed him about his "leaving something out" =))

I know I couldn't just marry some girl I was physcially attracted to who shared the same values and goals I did if I didn't love her or have feelings for her. There is a big difference and I think Pres. Monson missed it.

Col- you know I love ya- but pointing out that you think "the prophet "missed it" - isn't healthy Bro ( did I sound like Mark with that "Bro"?) - anyhow- I don't think that the prophet "misses anthing in General Conference" - but what do I know, I'm just a geek with a Civil War Solidier Avatar :-B