LDS Freedom Forum

I have had it on my mind to write a blog post about forgiving others for quite some time. But I know I'm not there yet concerning all that the Lord would have me know before I attempt to share. I have a person who I've struggled to forgive for a long time. I've come a long way with it, but I'm not there yet.

The difficult part for me is that she has never seemed repentant and she continues to hurt her children. For all my mixed up feelings, I still care about her and I'm convinced she has improperly treated mental illness issues. I think she's bipolar but treats it as depression because she likes the manic energy. Just an opinion but it's how I try to excuse her betrayal.

Anywho... enough about that.

What have you got for me? I've always loved the talk by Faust? I believe, where he relates the story of the Amish... I'm just having a bit of trouble putting the principle into practice.

A few thoughts:
"Here in life, we can do two things that spirits cannot. We can forgive and we can repent. Everything else, we can do better outside of mortality and thus it is not our primary concern here." Hugh Nibley

The Principles of Repentance and forgiveness are the same as are the principles of health and healing. One is a physical reflection of reality, and the other is a spiritual reflection of reality, but together they become truly powerful.


"In Exodus 32, Moses had gone up to the mountain. The children of Israel had fashioned a golden calf with a graving tool. The people offered burnt offerings, and they sat down to eat, drink, and play; and there was great wickedness when Moses came down out of the mountain. He cast the tablets out of his hands, and they were broken; he burned the golden calf and caused the idolaters to be slain.
Then, when the people had repented (and that is the key), Moses went back before the Lord and prayed, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written" (Exodus 32:32).
I have listened to possibly a thousand major transgressions; and each time after a truly repentant transgressor has left my office, I have either knelt behind the desk or bowed my head in prayer and said, "Lord, forgive him or her, I pray thee. If not, blot my name also out of thy book. I do not want to be where they aren't, for they are some of the most Christlike people I have ever met."
Though their sins be as scarlet, they may become white as the driven snow (see Isaiah 1:18), and the Lord has promised he would remember their sins no more (see D&C 58:42)." ["Forgive Them, I Pray Thee," Ensign, November 1980, p. 31]



From Pastor Chip Murray, the very influential leader of the First AME Church in Los Angeles
“To your oldest son, dear daughter, if you find a quiet moment with him,
and gain his permission to speak while he listens, promising to then 
listen while he speaks, committing not to interrupt–---

My dear son, I
want to take this opportunity to ask your forgiveness.
 Forgive me for whatever things I have done or failed to do that caused
 you such anger and anguish of spirit.
 Forgive me for the months and years and feeling your hostility and 
knowing that in some way you were responding to me, convinced that I 
trigger these negative feelings in you.
 Forgive me for not having asked forgiveness before.
 Forgive me for not being able to sit with you and ask about your pain.
 Yes, I know that there are two sides to every question, but my side is
 not important right now. 
You will see a change in me from this moment on.
 I ask no change in you, just that you notice a change in me.
 I accept you just as you are.
 Now I shall sit and listen to you. 
I love you.
. . .
Now we listen.
 Now we pray we have opened a door. 
Now we know that what comes may be finger pointing and assessing blame. 
Now we know that most of it is not true, but the wounded warrior is 
simply scapegoating. 
What we shall accomplish is allowing a platform for anger, even hatred,
to perform its role. Your words will go with your son to the grave. He 
will never forget that you said “forgive me”, when you had done nothing
 but love him. He is a child of his generation, in constant rebellion
 against anything that fences him in with authority or discipline or 
beyond himself.
 He will come to himself. 
Watch.”

Blessings on this hurdle that will draw you closer to the Savior as you allow grace, and withhold judgment as He would.

ChelC wrote:I have had it on my mind to write a blog post about forgiving others for quite some time. But I know I'm not there yet concerning all that the Lord would have me know before I attempt to share. I have a person who I've struggled to forgive for a long time. I've come a long way with it, but I'm not there yet.

The difficult part for me is that she has never seemed repentant and she continues to hurt her children. For all my mixed up feelings, I still care about her and I'm convinced she has improperly treated mental illness issues. I think she's bipolar but treats it as depression because she likes the manic energy. Just an opinion but it's how I try to excuse her betrayal.

Anywho... enough about that.

What have you got for me? I've always loved the talk by Faust? I believe, where he relates the story of the Amish... I'm just having a bit of trouble putting the principle into practice.

Forgiveness does NOT mean acceptance.

Forgiveness is for YOU.

The talk "Forgiveness" by President Hinckley is one of my favorites by him: http://lds.org/general-conference/2005/ ... orgiveness . I am sure you'll recall the story he retells at the end of the talk. Makes me cry every time.

I would like to see some more content in this thread as I have particular interest with the subject, and similarities to the original poster. When it comes to social issues, some repeatedly make the same mistakes. I have to remind myself that I keep making some mistakes repeatedly myself. They simply aren't the same outward mistakes as those that I see so easily in others. The trick is to keep reminding myself of that. If I want God to pick me up each time, I have to keep doing that same thing those family members in my life who have mental issues. They really need to stop and change, but more than anything they need my understanding and forgiveness.

Forgiveness can sometimes be synonymous with tolerance. Which, in certain amounts is healthy. But can also be dangerous to relationships.

Chicafoom,

That is one of my all-time favorite talks...it is one of the few times (perhaps the only time) I remember President Hinkley getting choked up in the middle of a talk...

jsk

I would like to share a few thoughts on this. The reaction will be interesting. Forgiveness is an interesting thing. I have always struggled with us offering forgiveness to others. As soon as you think you have been offended, mistreated, or harshly dealt with, it means you have judged the other party as offensive, harsh or of poor judgment in how they deal with others. We can only be hurt out of the bowels of our own judgment. It is not really relevant what others have done. We don't know their intention. If we have been hurt, we don't know God's intention in allowing the occurrence. Only God knows that. If God allows the usage of their agency to encroach on our choices, it is because it will bring the best good in our life. It may be painful, challenging and difficult, but if God allows it, it holds power for good. This is why we are commanded to "give thanks to God in all things." And told that all things work together for good..." It doesn't say to endure all things, or to put up with all things, but to give thanks. Now to give thanks we have to feel it inside. We can't give thanks out of the corner of our mouths. It has to be with "real intent".

This is souls stretching and demands much of us. We must trust God. Hard things happen in this life. We have to be bigger. Our faith has to stretch beyond any situation. As soon as we have been offended, our life situation has exceeded our faith, for the moment. And the struggle goes on.

So, our struggles with forgiving are really struggles with judgment. It is not our concern. God allowed it, and so must we. Instead of putting our effort in forgiveness, maybe we should put our effort into repentance.

Dealing with Personal Injustices: Lessons from the Prophet Joseph Smith by Jeffrey Marsh, has provided me with some good guidance on developing a more godly nature.

You know, my favorite talk was by a homeschooled young woman in Juneau. She had been reading with her Aunt (my friend) classics following the TJed style for English and they read "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Tenboom (Sp?) about her Nazi Germany experience and later running into one of her captors AT CHURCH and how she both gave and received. I have yet to buy the book but it already has a place in my heart because of that talk...wish I could share and remember more.

A Guidepost article from 1972 relates a short story titled "I'm Still Learning to Forgive"
It was in a church in Munich that I saw him, a balding heavy-set man in a gray overcoat, a brown felt hat clutched between his hands. People were filing out of the basement room where I had just spoken. It was 1947 and I had come from Holland to defeated Germany with the message that God forgives. ...

And that's when I saw him, working his way forward against the others. One moment I saw the overcoat and the brown hat; the next, a blue uniform and a visored cap with its skull and crossbones. It came back with a rush: the huge room with its harsh overhead lights, the pathetic pile of dresses and shoes in the center of the floor, the shame of walking naked past this man. I could see my sister's frail form ahead of me, ribs sharp beneath the parchment skin. Betsie, how thin you were!

Betsie and I had been arrested for concealing Jews in our home during the Nazi occupation of Holland; this man had been a guard at Ravensbruck concentration camp where we were sent. ...

"You mentioned Ravensbruck in your talk," he was saying. "I was a guard in there." No, he did not remember me.

"I had to do it — I knew that. The message that God forgives has a prior condition: that we forgive those who have injured us." "But since that time," he went on, "I have become a Christian. I know that God has forgiven me for the cruel things I did there, but I would like to hear it from your lips as well. Fraulein, ..." his hand came out, ... "will you forgive me?"

And I stood there — I whose sins had every day to be forgiven — and could not. Betsie had died in that place — could he erase her slow terrible death simply for the asking?

It could not have been many seconds that he stood there, hand held out, but to me it seemed hours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to do.

For I had to do it — I knew that. The message that God forgives has a prior condition: that we forgive those who have injured us. "If you do not forgive men their trespasses," Jesus says, "neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses." ...

And still I stood there with the coldness clutching my heart. But forgiveness is not an emotion — I knew that too. Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. "Jesus, help me!" I prayed silently. "I can lift my hand, I can do that much. You supply the feeling."

And so woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. And as I did, an incredible thing took place. The current started in my shoulder, raced down my arm, sprang into our joined hands. And then this healing warmth seemed to flood my whole being, bringing tears to my eyes.

"I forgive you, brother!" I cried. "With all my heart!"

For a long moment we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then.

fps.sledge --your post reminded me of a saying I like: "Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out."

And thanks for finding that Rand. I'm bawling again!

Edited to add: I've found that distance helps. Distancing yourself from a certain situation (or the emotions clouding judgement) or even a literal distance from people. I get caught in the trap of thinking somehow things will be different this time...that (for example) my family will be civil or loving...and get hurt over and over again. And while it is not my fault they are hurtful, it is often within my control to not be in a situation where they can so readily hurt me. I think there are some steps that sometimes need to come before forgiveness, like this one. It is hard to forgive when you are constantly in the thick of it.

Me again...sorry! So I just was thinking that this relates to our RS lesson (Gospel Principles --Charity lesson ?30?) from this past week. Charity is the pure love of Christ. Something that stood out to me in that lesson was a little sentence that said our opportunities to be charitable are perishable. I was just thinking about how bad choices affect things (and good choices too) for a long time and how even if you repent and are clean, you can't take back the time; it isn't a do-over but a new chapter in your life. Sometimes those options are lost. If I chose to have premarital sex and got pregnant as a teen, I could repent and start a new and get married in the temple eventually, etc, but that doesn't mean I'd gain back my teen years. Make sense? How does this apply to forgiveness? I think sometimes we injure relationships and lose what we could have had. That doesn't mean we can't improve, and that with much effort (concerted effort) can't get back that relationship, but we've lost the time...what might have happened in the mean time. And sometimes it is our own taking offense that is the problem, as Rand spoke to previously.

I had an experience where we were about hit by a car owned by a friend. It had a bunch of teenagers in it and I only saw it out of the rear-view mirror as they nearly crashed into me and swerved across the road, so I called my friend (perhaps a bad choice on my part?) to say that the teenagers driving their car were being reckless and she might want to reconsider lending it out. Well, apparently it was her husband WITH a car full of highschoolers at lunch time. I was irritated for a few minutes after hanging up and moved on. She thought I was mad at her (or was mad at me for calling?) and it colored her relationship with me for the next couple of months. We were in a Primary Presidency together and it was the most dysfunctional one I've been in (quite the learning experience) and the entire time she fought against every suggestion or comment I made. Eventually the president moved and a new presidency was called. Talking to this sister later as she was preparing to move as well (I don't honestly remember when or why it came up), she brought up that call. I had forgotten it and she thought I was mad at her and was therefor "biting back" every time I did anything. It seemed to hit her hard when she realized I had no idea what she was talking about and that she'd spent all that time imagining a problem on my part and thus causing more problems between us. I guess I'm sharing this as an example of someone not forgiving and moving on, and also of an example of taking offense where none is intended. She was a nice person but she took offense where none was intended and didn't move on. We may have been able to have a decent relationship without that, but the misunderstanding wasn't realized until she was moving and that chance was pretty much lost.

Wow, this is depressing me! I'm not trying to be discouraging and saying "the chance is lost", but more that we need to do our best to make things right NOW or the chance may be forever lost. I did something totally outside of my comfort zone and directly apologized to my father-in-law for my previous treatment of him. I was snippy and lacked patience. He has health issues stemming from his irresponsible choices (diabetes, strokes, etc -- and he won't even check his sugar or eat well when the home-baked goods are right in front of him) that make him more like a child than an 70 year old adult and he always came for a visit when I had a newborn or was pregnant and I didn't have the energy to take care of another child so that just made everything worse! I asked him to forgive me, and offered to bring him into our home. He didn't accept and doesn't want to make the changes necessary for his health to improve, but I think my being able to openly apologize to him made a big difference in our relationship. I don't know that it made a difference to him (how do you know when he hardly talks?) but I know I felt differently towards him afterwards. I think that can be the hardest part --openly talking about it-- but that it is actually the most direct way to healing. My guess is that as the one offended, it works the same way. You are opening yourself up to more hurt, but you may find that the intent wasn't there, or that they felt hurt by you and were responding in kind...I wish we could be more open and direct in our relationships.

ETA: Catherine posting again

You know what? I just read The Hiding Place a couple months ago. It was awesome. It's the book that kind of dragged out what I've tried to put behind me. I realized that I haven't really forgiven her. I've accepted the situation the best I can, but I still wish I could shake her a bit and get her to see what she continues to do to her children, who I love.

I appreciate all the input. I am working on it, but it may take me a while.

Talked with my husband tonight. I realized that I still have some animosity. It's giving way to pity. Is pity and a lack of respect just the next step, or am I shooting for love and understanding? I'm honestly not sure of the answer.

ShawnC wrote:

ChelC wrote:I have had it on my mind to write a blog post about forgiving others for quite some time. But I know I'm not there yet concerning all that the Lord would have me know before I attempt to share. I have a person who I've struggled to forgive for a long time. I've come a long way with it, but I'm not there yet.

The difficult part for me is that she has never seemed repentant and she continues to hurt her children. For all my mixed up feelings, I still care about her and I'm convinced she has improperly treated mental illness issues. I think she's bipolar but treats it as depression because she likes the manic energy. Just an opinion but it's how I try to excuse her betrayal.

Anywho... enough about that.

What have you got for me? I've always loved the talk by Faust? I believe, where he relates the story of the Amish... I'm just having a bit of trouble putting the principle into practice.

Forgiveness does NOT mean acceptance.

Forgiveness is for YOU.

I really love this thought!

lack of forgiveness boils down to personal pride.

Remember Lot's Wife:
http://www.byub.org/talks/talk.aspx?id=3403