LDS Freedom Forum

Nan wrote:A person I know told me he believes in 8 1/2 years that we will have post Katrina like conditions all over our country. Not sure what I think. Guess it depends on the day.

bobhenstra wrote:It'll take a tank to get me outa my house, but then I'm in a safe area in Central Utah. I seriously doubt people will be around collecting bills, things will be that bad.

Rincon wrote:I do not want to be anywhere near a large city.

Amen to that!

Tribunal wrote:How do you foresee THE Collapse of the United States and the world? What's your time-frame? What factors do you see causing the Collapse?

After THE Collapse, how do you see events playing out? What will become of our local communities, our Church, and our society as a whole? Where do you believe is the safest place to be during the Collapse?

One issue I've wondered about is how will paying bills work just before, during, and after a Collapse? If there isn't an internet or mail system how will I pay my mortgage? If there's no internet or mail system and I can't make my mortgage payments will I lose my house?

Jason's 2010 forecast from mid-2009 wrote:disclaimer: just my guess (I have no crystal ball...or better yet two stones in a bow).....and always subject to revision as more information is accumulated.

Short version:
Boiled down to bare bones - its going to get ugly (riots, major crime wave, Argentina atmosphere)...but my guess is by next fall/winter at the earliest. Time is relative to your location, ability to support or continue to support yourself (family), your prior preparations, etc etc etc. California exponential debt prediction timing...define exponential? I'll throw out a guess based on my research to date and say that I expect unemployment borrowing to equal Sales Tax Collections by July. I've seen/heard several rumors floating around about bringing military sources back. What I don't know is if they are all coming from one source or not...and whether it can be substantiated. Short version is for you!

Long version:

I don't expect things to really get bad till next fall/winter.

After this dismal Christmas shopping season - Q1 layoffs will accelerate. Unemployment (and other social safety net expenses) will increase (think hockey stick graphs) while tax revenues continue to decrease (upside down hockey sticks) thus bankrupting the states and placing them in position to be absorbed under complete Federal control/stewardship (who is bankrolled by Federal Reserve and their printing press which to date has stymied a complete collapse with just enough of an injection to keep the big boys afloat).

The exact timing is very difficult to predict as it ultimately relies on the ability to refinance (roll over) existing debt and to accumulate new debt. That is determined by the market and more importantly, the invisible hand of the Fed (not so invisible anymore). When will the borrowers be unable to continue to borrow from tomorrow? Or when does tomorrow run dry?

As the real unemployment rate crosses 30% in Q2 and CRE meltdown rolls in full swing I think we'll start seeing the FDIC take over 20 to 30 banks a week. Perhaps we'll start seeing some sporadic riots at that point....but as long as the government is back stopping everything through the Federal Reserve printing press....I highly doubt it.

Obviously that didn't happen....or hasn't gotten to those levels yet. Still at a couple a week.

All the state and local governments (despite stimulus injections) will be seeing daily reality checks in declining revenue collections - thus as July rolls in with the new fiscal year budgets....I expect drastic cutbacks in all areas. If anything provides a trigger for riots...the budget fights between teachers vs cops vs firefighters vs bureaucrats etc. over the dimes and pennies coming in....has serious potential. IMO one really good spark will ignite the boiling cauldron of middle class anger.

Probably a year off on this one.....and 2011 will eat the cake versus 2010.

Also debt costs are going to soar as risk goes off the charts thus the roll over issues mentioned here -
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/us-lun ... -risk-2012" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Summer is always better economically so I expect the big blowups to hit fall/winter of next year. 2011 will be pure ugliness. I can't imagine what 2012 will look like.

Starting to look like ugliness....especially in other parts of the world.

Currently unemployment borrowing is increasing at roughly $100 million per day. The next states to go down, based on my analysis, will be Colorado and Georgia in January, Arizona in February, Kansas and Massachusetts in March, Maryland in April, and Vermont in May. The rest, bar in rapid increases in unemployment or borrowing from the state's unemployment fund to satisfy other needs of the state, should last for a year or more.

All of those states went in the red roughly as predicted. Hawaii went down in mid-December. The next ones to go down are a ways off at current burn rates.....Oklahoma is on track for June 2012, West Virginia for December 2012, and Utah for January 2013.....with another sizable (6 months or more) gap before the next ones.

To add to that....Despite ultra low interest rates people are borrowing less, banks are lending less, defaults are increasing (of all flavors), the economy is contracting, social safety net costs are increasing, taxes are increasing, medical costs are increasing, food costs are increasing, etc etc.

We have hit our collective tipping point in the ability to accumulate additional debt and service our current debt....as captured by Karl here -
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2138807" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The machinations of the Fed (both parties) only extend the horizon and temporarily delay the inevitable...while deepening the impact.

So enough of the cause and effect....default on obligations:

Who is the debt owed to?

When will the tipping point in defaults occur?

What corresponding action will be taken by the creditor(s)?

Jason's 2011 forecast from mid-2010 wrote:Here's a little synopsis I put together for a friend this morning -

As far as predictions - for whatever they are worth (this may get windy as I have a hard time getting off the soapbox once I get started):

Sporadic riots as the economy spirals down this winter....growing in intensity and duration as 2011 rolls in. 2011 will be ugly with potentially the collapse of the nation into anarchy - city vs. city, county vs. county, state vs. state, etc.

Not there yet but showing promise....

Money is created by debt. The money for interest is never created so the system is inherently deflationary. Therefore, we must constantly increase our debt (money supply) in order to create new money to keep the system expanding plus service interest costs. The longer it goes the more money/debt that must be created. We've hit the debt saturation point (Q1 2010) - the point at which our ability to service current debt is maximized. Every additional dollar of debt borrowed beyond that point only accelerates the bankruptcy or default on debt (transfer of assets). The debt saturation point is flexible based on the cost of debt - interest rate. Lower the interest rate and you raise the debt saturation point. Raise the interest rate and you lower the debt saturation point.

I now think 2008 was the debt saturation point. Q1 2010 was simply where every additional dollar of debt borrowed creates negative GDP as it steals from production to sustain the debt burden.

This has been building for multiple decades. We started to plateau in the mid-90's and Greenspan created the sweeps program to sweep checking account balances into a savings account to loan out - i.e. create more leverage/debt. Then again in 2000/2001 at which point Greenspan lowered interest rates thus lowering the cost of debt and raising the debt saturation point (we can service more debt due to lower interest cost). In 2008 we hit it again and despite the stimulus we've still spiraled down for the past 18-24 months. So here we are with the lowest housing interest rates in history and nobody is buying/borrowing - Debt Saturation. Nowhere to go but down!

Even at zero percent interest (Japan the last decade) things continue to spiral down and its just delaying the inevitable. Japan is still on the verge of collapse with more problems now than a decade ago.

Two decades actually....

The US is worse as we've outsourced our production (wealth) to China. A little secret - only the people that produce really matter. For example in a company the assistants (accounting, finance, management, etc) help by allowing production people to focus completely on production (thus more productive). And they add value and have their place.....but if the production doesn't occur (and hopefully maximized) its all pointless. So if the system is balanced (ratio of secretaries to mechanics) the shop runs well and is productive. But if its not balanced (10 secretaries for every mechanic) then bankruptcy will surely be the result. Same with distribution of wages/resources/etc.

This country, as a nation, is imbalanced. Not only that but it is run by thieves and cutthroats (especially Wall Street). Your income is taxed before you get it (income tax), then its taxed when you spend it (sales/fuel tax), and then you are taxed for your purchases (property tax). All that wealth is siphoned off and wasted in some inefficient bureaucratic quagmire. Not only that....all the money is created by debt thus creating a monetary system where all wealth flows back to the creator of the debt - ultimately the private banking cartel called the Federal Reserve.

Or building castles on the hill for a few.....of which they don't produce anything valuable to the rest of us. For example - if I utilize a million dollars (of someone else's production) to buy a Ferrari that sits in the garage most of the year....and even when driven is only for joy rides......doesn't do anyone else any favors or make their life better.

One of the major problems with the last debt boom (2000-2007). The vast majority of it went to bigger houses (that don't produce anything valuable), big screen TVs (definitely don't produce anything valuable), and swapping newer cars for older cars that takes a government program like "Cash for Clunkers" to remove inventory.

So what we are seeing in Wisconsin and elsewhere around the country is the end result of loss of production yet desire to remain at current living standards. Just ain't gonna happen!!! You can pat yourself on the back for that! Our dillweed politicians sold us out....and we put them in so that makes us the bigger dillweeds. We literally gave our jobs away to China and let the central banks insert the debt gavage (to mask the decline in real production) while we voluntarily stuffed ourselves beyond internal capacity!

For example you want to buy a house. You go to the bank to borrow the money. The bank doesn't have the money but creates it against the promissory note you sign for the loan (money created by debt). Now you inject the money you borrowed into the money supply by buying the house (either from previous owner or builder/developer). Then you must either pay back that money WITH INTEREST over time.....OR you default on the house and the bank gets the property. Say the loan is for $500k at 5.5% interest over 30 years. Either the bank gets roughly $1.2 million or they get the house. How much did it cost them for the $1.2 million or the house???

Where does the money for interest come from? Other debt creators.....the only saving grace for the system is you inject $500k up front yet pay back the $1.2 million over 30 years thus giving others a chance to create more money by taking on debt. The mathematical problem is the debt must keep increasing at a constantly expanding rate. If the expansion slows down then you have recession. If it stops expanding or contracts then you have depression. When you hit the debt saturation point and debt massively contracts (and massive defaults) then you have a Great Depression.

Say hello to GD2!!! And sbsion's Summer of Hell is finally approaching (rip on him for timing all you want.....but try predicting the future yourself without a crystal ball or prophetic insight!!! Ain't easy getting the timing right! Can see what will inevitability come to pass though as a natural result of ignoring and disobeying natural law).

In a system guaranteed to create defaults (inherently deflationary) because the money is never created for interest......at some point in time the banks are guaranteed to end up with all the assets.....at nearly zero cost. The system is designed so that they end up owning everything. And all wealth ultimately flows back to the original creator of debt - The Federal Reserve which is a cartel of private banks which in our case is not just the US but a cartel of global central banks thus all assets ultimately flow back to the BIS (Bank of International Settlements)....i.e Rothschilds & co-conspirators.

How does it feel to be a slave? As Americans wake up and realize what's taking place over the coming year (due to deflationary collapse) we will test the control mechanism (martial law/military dictatorship).....of which the plans (developed over previous decades) are currently in place.

Only reason I can figure that they didn't pull the plug in 2008 was the timing wasn't right....not prepared enough. I think the situation has changed dramatically now over the past several years. Now for $75k per person you can buy a ticket to your very own underground bunker with 60 months of supplies.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson

Obama signed executive order in January of this year creating 10 governors to rule the US militarily which happens to coincide with the 10 FEMA regions. Here's the details I posted on blog post -
http://yophat.blogspot.com/2010/01/exec ... rnors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies..." - Thomas Jefferson

So either they will win and we'll end up a chipped obedient serf society....or all hell will break loose and chaos/anarchy will result. Obviously my bet is on the latter.

Here is a blog post with over 100 hours of video -
http://yophat.blogspot.com/2010/07/behi ... onion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And another with over 300 recommended books -
http://yophat.blogspot.com/2009/05/reading-list.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Th Political Measuring Stick
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... ring+Stick" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mummy's 2011 forecast from late-2010 wrote:I've shared my thoughts on it across multiple posts but here is a summary of my current thoughts on the future (just opinions with no crystal ball or direct revelation - for whatever it may be worth) -

I think we will see a vast consolidation of the banking system over the next 6 months with great odds that the final winner will likely wear a government license plate (think Fannie & Freddie, Fed, etc.).

Odds are we'll see more military action in early 2011 - N. Korea and Iran - further spreading out the military and debilitating them.

With Libya of all places looking the most likely.....and still a tie between N.Korea and Iran. I've seen forecasts of an attack on N.Korea in the next month.

I think we'll see sporadic riots though out the year growing in size, frequency, and duration. The battle between states, cities, counties, etc will get brutal this summer as the fight over decreasing dollars gets intense. I expect an attempt at martial law will be made mid-2012 and prior to that being completed the government will collapse into chaos and anarchy.

I expect the church to draw a line in the sand at the latter end of 2011 with the implementation of the Law of Consecration between December 2nd and December 23rd of 2011 and that this will largely be a result of the economy and a response to our economic situation. I expect that the missionaries will be called home just prior to that occurring. I expect that the persecution will rapidly intensify after that. I also expect the judgments of God to intensify at the same time (we know that God will destroy all who fight against Zion). I expect that the government will collapse roughly 6 months after that occurs (the breakup into tribes, families, and communities).

I anticipate that the Savior will return roughly 3 years after that occurs. I expect the judgments to roll out in force during that time period.

Obviously Palmoni Scrolls time line....which I am still attached to and haven't found any gaping holes in the interpretation logic or compilation of scriptures.

Guesses (perhaps educated and perhaps not) for whatever they may be worth......probably not much!!!

Even if the time line is correct (which is a long shot) it shouldn't change what one does on a daily basis. The only protection is in following the counsel of the prophets and striving every day to learn and be obedient to the Father's will through the Spirit (sacrificing our own will in the process and becoming as a little child).

Mummy's additional thoughts wrote:I never said that Christ was coming on or prior to 2012.....and fwiw....believe at this point it will be in mid 2015. But Zion has to be established....and a city built. Remember that the whole world was turned upside down for the Nephites/Lamanites in the space of 3 hours......and then they had 3 days with nothing to do but sit around and contemplate it. Also realize that the remaining 1/3 of the Jews who survive will be converted in less than an hour.

So between the space of lunch and dinner today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc.....the whole landscape can change. Also that people are already saying that He delayeth His coming (expected year 2000 - Archbishop Usher's timeline).

I think Zion will be established Dec 23, 2011 by the members uniting to live the law of consecration as a means of economic defense and unity to actions taken by government (or government bank).

My only point with 2012 is that that seems to be the implementation year for martial law (dictatorship) & new age movement (NWO religion). The final thread for the constitution is the franchise or right to vote. As far as we know that thread is never broken. We also know that the elders of the church will uphold the Constitution and bear it away.

Based on that knowledge I'm guessing that the country will decay into disorder/collapse prior to full implementation of martial law. I'm assuming based on my knowledge that martial law is going to happen in 2012 prior to the 2012 elections so that the collapse must occur prior to that.

Ironically, I stumbled across the scrolls Angel Palmoni has possession of (and sharing via http://www.angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmoni/Welcome.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) which portray a scriptural based time line estimate that matches up with my economic/finance/secret combination/military based time line......and hence my attachment to it not to mention I haven't been able to find any gaping holes in it......and the really smart people (much smarter than I) that I've shared it with haven't been able to poke any holes in it either (not to say it can't happen).

Obviously my belief about the actual dates for establishment of Zion and return of Jesus stem from the scrolls.....but you can go back over Jason's predictions as of a year ago to see the economic/political time line estimate hasn't changed much. If the scrolls are correct and the half hour of silence ends next year.....then 3 1/2 years of judgment will be poured out prior to the Savior's return in mid 2015.

If those 3 1/2 years are anything like the 3 hours experienced by the Nephites & Lamanites.....you can fully expect D&C 45:26 to be considered fulfilled by the conclusion of the 3 1/2 years!

Might call the thread - What do you think 2010 will bring?

Rincon wrote:I have a document which lists about 39 events which must take place at or before the final winding up scene. I have reviewed this list. Most of them could possibly happen in a 5 year time-frame, but I have my doubts. I am wondering about all Nations receiving the missionaries before they are called home. We are not even close on that one. I also wonder about the many young men who are 12 or 13 who's Patriarchal blessings say they will serve missions.

My gut feeling is that we have more time, but that it will not be a pleasant time. I believe LDS people will be saying "He delayeth his coming", not just Christians in general.

Of course I am ready to admit my opinion has very little value. I am a peon here among great gospel scholars.

gclayjr wrote:Mummy

Might call the thread - What do you think 2010 will bring?

I have gone into the Future and I can tell you from viewing 2010 from the vantage point of 2011. 2010 just brings a few more problems than 2009. The collapse happens sometime after 2010. )

Rincon wrote: I also wonder about the many young men who are 12 or 13 who's Patriarchal blessings say they will serve missions.

Rincon wrote: This is grim reading. I am not prepared to shoot any holes in it, but I have possession of a document which might. I will review it and if I find something worth sharing I will post it. I am sure no one would get their feeling hurt if we discover we have more time than we thought.

"another generation more apathetic?"

Tribunal wrote:Where do you believe is the safest place to be during the Collapse?