LDS Freedom Forum

I think we should personalize this as members of "ZION" or what we are trying to turn into Zion. Should this not be personalized to us to say:

"All is not well in the Church"
"All is not well in the BYU"
"All is not well in our sacrament meetings"
"All is not well with our temple worship"
"All is not well in our families"........etc. etc.

This may sound negative because it is. I see the tendency for us to forget that just as there is much good and positive work going on in the church, the members tend to let the positive dominate to the point they "see no evil" hence the phrase "All is well in Zion. I think we need to be aware of the evils and the work of the "tares" in the church just as much as we are aware of the righteous works of the wheat. We need to keep a balance of perspective so that we aren't deceived by the tares who are embracing socialism, false principles, and the ways of the world. So that we don't start to call good evil and evil good. There has been a steady movement in the church towards the world and becoming popular. This is a dangerous direction to go. To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is obvious in the lives of the Saints. Any thoughts?

by Rincon

At one time I had a list of such issues which was bothering me deeply, so I wrote a letter to the President of the Church, who I was already acquainted with. He wrote a reply at the bottom of my letter and mailed it back to me. Here is what it said:

"The tares will grow with the wheat for a season, your task is to make sure you are not one of the tares"

Every time I look at his hand written note to me, I begin to look in the mirror and interview myself again. I have come to realize how powerful and correct his personal answer was.

I think an important reason for emphasis on the positive is because pointing out "tare-ish" behavior tends to drive people away, and doesn't bring them to repentance.

Yes, there is a lot wrong in the church, in our ward, some things wrong in my family, and PLENTY wrong in my own life. And I don't think anyone on this forum is guilty of "All is well in Zion"ism. )

My concern is that due to the growing influence of Satan that in many regards we are farther from reaching the goal than we as a church have been in the past. Far too many are being burned rather than refined by the fires - the only consolation is that God is in charge.

I think anyone without blinders on can see these things happening around us. The key is the quote you shared from Rincon. It is of the utmost importance not to be a "tare."

I think it's important to recognize what is going on and not be naeve. However, I also think it's important to not point the finger at another, but focus on "working out our own salvation with fear and trembling." These things will all be sorted out in due time. It's sad that they will have to be, but ultimately they will. I pray that I won't be deceived and fight against the Kingdom of God.

Original_Intent wrote:I think an important reason for emphasis on the positive is because pointing out "tare-ish" behavior tends to drive people away, and doesn't bring them to repentance.

Yes, there is a lot wrong in the church, in our ward, some things wrong in my family, and PLENTY wrong in my own life. And I don't think anyone on this forum is guilty of "All is well in Zion"ism. )

My concern is that due to the growing influence of Satan that in many regards we are farther from reaching the goal than we as a church have been in the past. Far too many are being burned rather than refined by the fires - the only consolation is that God is in charge.

Well said. It could be argued both ways, however. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures of prophets pointing out and condemning "tare-ish" behavior and the people often hardened their hearts and even cast them out or killed them in some extremes. Earlier prophets in the church also tended to openly speak against it likewise. I think it has little to do with pointing fingers and "judging" people. It's more about recognizing and identifying the certain cultures and behaviors that are being practiced, embraced, and passed down as traditions and things of acceptability. The fact is, the less emphasis that is made on openly condemning tare-ish behavior and practices, the more tares will join the church and bring into the church the tare-ish things of the world with them. In this manner the church has been polluted.

Mormon 8:38
"O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye aashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that bmisery which never dies—because of the cpraise of the world? "

The Lord allows the pollution of His church for His purposes in the gathering and refining of the wheat and He will cleanse it in His time. I think, however, that some of those who would be wheat will fall victim to deception and be found among the tares if awareness of the the tare-ish behavior is not emphasized to them. Obviously this must be done in a wise manner. I think that doing this in wisdom is as much the missionary work we should be doing as is that of sharing the gospel with non members. It is part of perfecting the saints.

dewajack wrote:I think anyone without blinders on can see these things happening around us. However, I also think it's important to not point the finger at another, but focus on "working out our own salvation with fear and trembling." These things will all be sorted out in due time. It's sad that they will have to be, but ultimately they will. I pray that I won't be deceived and fight against the Kingdom of God.

That's just it, many many, far too many, members do have the blinders on and are being distracted and deceived by things of no worth, and if they had more awareness, many would wake up and choose to be wheat. This must eventually happen at some time it seems, but we all have our part to play in this. " Sometime" can become never if things are put on the shelf to be sorted out in " due time". Many people are procrastinating and wasting their days of probation. The point I'm making is that, Yes, we need to not go beyond our duties of helping raise awareness of these things, but we also need to actively fight against these pollutions in a wise and loving manner. Like I said before, it's not about pointing fingers at people. It's about raising awareness of the false traditions, pollutions, etc. taking place. We are all guilty to some degree or another. It's the awareness and working towards overcoming these things that should be the focus. It's like growing a garden and only focusing on all the good growth that is taking place and neglecting to place the proper focus on the negative destruction and works of the gardens enemies and parasites that are polluting it and seeking to devour and destroy it. I think our church culture has embraced the world and popular culture so much that there is not an awareness like there should be and many people are becoming victims of blindness. It is not the place of the modern prophets to correct this or to "steady the ark " so to speak. We must do it as members, but in a way that follows the "milk before meat" principle and with wisdom. Once we have been awakened and warned, it is not our duty to just sit back and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is our duty to warn and help others awaken and warn them of these things. That now becomes part of working out our salvation, otherwise we will have "blood on our hands" so to speak if we do not help warn those around us.

Original_Intent wrote:I think an important reason for emphasis on the positive is because pointing out "tare-ish" behavior tends to drive people away, and doesn't bring them to repentance.

Yes, there is a lot wrong in the church, in our ward, some things wrong in my family, and PLENTY wrong in my own life. And I don't think anyone on this forum is guilty of "All is well in Zion"ism. )

My concern is that due to the growing influence of Satan that in many regards we are farther from reaching the goal than we as a church have been in the past. Far too many are being burned rather than refined by the fires - the only consolation is that God is in charge.

I love this statement!!!

n8-r wrote:

dewajack wrote:That's just it, many many, far too many, members do have the blinders on and are being distracted and deceived by things of no worth, and if they had more awareness, many would wake up and choose to be wheat. This must eventually happen at some time it seems, but we all have our part to play in this. " Sometime" can become never if things are put on the shelf to be sorted out in " due time". Many people are procrastinating and wasting their days of probation. The point I'm making is that, Yes, we need to not go beyond our duties of helping raise awareness of these things, but we also need to actively fight against these pollutions in a wise and loving manner. Like I said before, it's not about pointing fingers at people. It's about raising awareness of the false traditions, pollutions, etc. taking place. We are all guilty to some degree or another. It's the awareness and working towards overcoming these things that should be the focus. It's like growing a garden and only focusing on all the good growth that is taking place and neglecting to place the proper focus on the negative destruction and works of the gardens enemies and parasites that are polluting it and seeking to devour and destroy it. I think our church culture has embraced the world and popular culture so much that there is not an awareness like there should be and many people are becoming victims of blindness. It is not the place of the modern prophets to correct this or to "steady the ark " so to speak. We must do it as members, but in a way that follows the "milk before meat" principle and with wisdom. Once we have been awakened and warned, it is not our duty to just sit back and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is our duty to warn and help others awaken and warn them of these things. That now becomes part of working out our salvation, otherwise we will have "blood on our hands" so to speak if we do not help warn those around us.

Well said!

It's essentially impossible to avoid being deceived if you insist on letting the TV run daily. You might be able to sort out the garbage yourself, but your kids won't be able to. Drive around the neighborhood at night and notice, a blue glare in virtually every living room window.

Rincon wrote:It's essentially impossible to avoid being deceived if you insist on letting the TV run daily. You might be able to sort out the garbage yourself, but your kids won't be able to. Drive around the neighborhood at night and notice, a blue glare in virtually every living room window.

Agreed...we don't have a TV but we do use Netflix etc for entertainment. Even that can get out of hand. Life is hard when you first give up the "company" of TV, but my experience has been that you can be a whole lot more productive. I have pulled way back on things like TV and radio. Life has been better; however, I have increased my studies of the last days, and I confess to being overwhelmed if I do not modify and balance my work!

I am not really a tv fan, although I do like Extreme Makeover Home Edition and some sports, so I watch that on occasion. That said, I could throw our tv out tomorrow and miss it very little. (The internet is another story altogether though). However, I have noticed, because I don't watch tv I can't follow too many conversations with a lot of people around me. It really is so true that so much of our culture is immersed in television. I feel like such a social pariah when I can't speak about 24 or the latest episode of Biggest Loser, the Bachelor, American Idol (used to be my guilty pleasure, but I don't miss it now that I stopped watching it), etc. I won't condemn all tv-watching, but I agree that it would help our communities immensely if we didn't let all of that media influence into our homes. It really has defined much of our culture and it only contributes to our very un-zion-like situation in and out of the church.

chicafoom wrote:I am not really a tv fan, although I do like Extreme Makeover Home Edition and some sports, so I watch that on occasion. That said, I could throw our tv out tomorrow and miss it very little. (The internet is another story altogether though). However, I have noticed, because I don't watch tv I can't follow too many conversations with a lot of people around me. It really is so true that so much of our culture is immersed in television. I feel like such a social pariah when I can't speak about 24 or the latest episode of Biggest Loser, the Bachelor, American Idol (used to be my guilty pleasure, but I don't miss it now that I stopped watching it), etc. I won't condemn all tv-watching, but I agree that it would help our communities immensely if we didn't let all of that media influence into our homes. It really has defined much of our culture and it only contributes to our very un-zion-like situation in and out of the church.

Well said, I wouldn't worry about not being able to follow in conversation, you are just removing yourself from the great and spacious building. Bound to be some strange behaviors around you... )

The words of the Prophet Joseph Smith touch my heart. May they touch yours as well:

The people may have faults, but they should never be trifled with. I think Mr. Pitt's quotation in the British Parliament of Mr. Prior's couplet for the husband and wife, to apply to the course which the king and ministry of England should pursue to the then colonies of the now United States, might be a genuine rule of action for some of the breath made men in high places, to use towards the posterity of this noble, daring people:

"Be to her faults a little blind;
Be to her virtues very kind."