Humanitarian intervention and free agency

[English Saint]

I'm going to ask half-a-dozen people at church tomorrow if they think Britain and the US should intervene in Libya. I'm interested to know how many ordinary members think it's ok to force our will on other people by sending British special forces over there to help oust Gadaffi . It's bad enough that a lot of LDS think we're doing the Lord's work in forcing our beliefs on non-members at home - see the number of LDS who support the ban on smoking in public places. But then there are also those who think that forcing our democracy on people living several thousand miles away is the right thing to do.

I need to look ahead in my Gospel Principles manual to see if there are any lessons on Agency coming up. I would love to stick my hand up and mention Libya as an example. From past experience, I reckon it'll be like throwing a wasps' nest into the class.

[jimmy k]

English Saint
What would you do if your neighbour happened to be a mad man who was abuseing or even murdering the occupants of that house.
Would you say that is their problem let them sort it out or would you do something to stop it.
If you choose to let them sort it out and let the above things go on, can you stand in front of our Heavenly Father when your time comes and think that he would agree with you.

[Songbird]

I'm going to ask half-a-dozen people at church tomorrow if they think Britain and the US should intervene in Libya. I'm interested to know how many ordinary members think it's ok to force our will on other people by sending British special forces over there to help oust Gadaffi . It's bad enough that a lot of LDS think we're doing the Lord's work in forcing our beliefs on non-members at home - see the number of LDS who support the ban on smoking in public places. But then there are also those who think that forcing our democracy on people living several thousand miles away is the right thing to do.

I need to look ahead in my Gospel Principles manual to see if there are any lessons on Agency coming up. I would love to stick my hand up and mention Libya as an example. From past experience, I reckon it'll be like throwing a wasps' nest into the class.

First, there is a class on agency in the manual We recently had the lesson over here.
Second, I think your argument is flawed. If you go to church tomorrow and take a "poll" on people's opinions, it seems that since you already "think" that intervention is wrong, (based on your comments) then that will be a breeding ground for you to "judge" people and "prove" your point. Why would you think that we are forcing "our" democracy on them, when in fact, it is exactly what Father in Heaven needs us to do in order for the Gospel to be preached to all the world? Since when did it become "our" democracy? Heavenly Father set up freedoms in the US which came to be known as Democratic principles and otherwise stood for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" Would you deny those people those basic human fundamental rights?
It sounds like you have an ax to grind. It sounds like you feel "put upon" by all the "things" we are told to do, and how dare we stand up for what we believe in.

[kathyn]

Songbird, I used to see things the way you do. Now, I'm not so sure. We were not meant to be the world's policeman. Our country has neither the money nor the manpower for all our military is doing. But do we have the "right" to go into other countries and decide who rules them? I think not! Certainly the Lord can turn these situations so there is a positive outcome. Previous wars did help in opening countries to the spread of the gospel. ( The Lord is always in charge of the outcome.) However, that does not mean the wars were righteous. Now our Americans leaders think we have the right to tell everyone else how to live. The better way would have been through example and helping others have a change of heart. Forcing changes in other countries' gov'ts is not for us to decide. If we had left things to the Lord, He could have done it without so much bloodshed.

Qaddafi is awful. There's no debate about that, but what or who will replace him and might he be even worse? The Church does it the right way....through humanitarian help. The gov't just throws money and might at countries, trying to get them to bend to our will and our sense of "democracy". Our gov't has supported some truly awful leaders because they were friendly to us. The people in those countries suffered, too. It seems our gov't helps only those who can be useful. I think most of our military men and women think they are serving a wonderful cause, and I love them for it. But I have seen a terrible waste of some of our best and brightest in wars that really haven't helped freedom.

[jimmy k]

Kathyn, if you were in Libya under the rule of a mad man would you not want and would you not pray for someone to come and rescue you.
Yes, the U. S. A. are the world police and thank God for them.

[Rincon]

Removed

[English Saint]

Didn't your founding fathers warn about getting involved in foreign conflicts? Britain and the US could take the moral high ground and say that yes, were self-appointed policemen of the world. But what happens when China becomes dominant? Who are we to complain when they send their troops over to Britain to force us to accept full blown communism - after all, they are convinced that they are right and that communism is the answer to the world's problems. The Chinese public will probably cheer their troops on when they start bombing British and American insurgents who refuse to accept the hammer & sickle on UK/US soil, just as our public cheers when the British/US roll in to Iraq with their superior hardware.

Of course, if someone next door to me was being murdered I would need to call the police. That's because my next door neighbour lives under British jurisdicion. Libyans haven't signed up to live under British or American law. Suppose I was speaking to someone in Libya on the telephone, when all of a sudden I heared screams and shouts for help. Do I call the Metropolitan police in London or the LAPD in America to go and investigate?

We can lobby our governments to cease trading with Libya or we can donate Christian aid (I don't like the word 'humanitarian' because it reminds me of humanism) to help those poor souls who need it.

[Rincon]

Removed

[lundbaek]

For those who believe the US and the UK and any other country should participate in the battle in Libya, as far as I know you have the right to do whatever you like to support either side in that conflict. Good luck figuring out which is the more righteous side. But you do not have the right to compel, by your vote or letters to Congress, or at the point of a gun, that anyone else must go there because of your opinions about the conflict or what might be accomplished by armed intervention in it.

[n8-r]

English Saint
What would you do if your neighbour happened to be a mad man who was abuseing or even murdering the occupants of that house.
Would you say that is their problem let them sort it out or would you do something to stop it.
If you choose to let them sort it out and let the above things go on, can you stand in front of our Heavenly Father when your time comes and think that he would agree with you.

The problem with your example is that your neighbor is under the same gov't as you and the gov't is supposed to protect everyones rights under it. It falls under your jurisdiction to help protect the people that your gov't is responsible to protect. Other countries do not fall under our gov'ts jurisdiction. The proper role of any gov't is to protect the rights, properties, and persons under it's jurisdiction. Nothing more and nothing less. It is not the proper role of our gov't to "police" other nations that do not fall under it's jurisdiction. The only righteous justification for us invading or waring with another country is if the other country is threatening the rights, properties, or people of our country. Read the Book of Mormon. This is very clear. When the Nephites were righteous they never attacked the lamanites first, even if they were killing and oppressing their own people. It was only when the Lamanites came upon the Nephites and threatened them that they took up arms. If individual citizens of a country want to band together for a just cause and organize and provide relief to an oppressed country, that is their right to do as individuals, but not under the name of gov't of country.

[Original_Intent]

Didn't your founding fathers warn about getting involved in foreign conflicts? Britain and the US could take the moral high ground and say that yes, were self-appointed policemen of the world. But what happens when China becomes dominant? Who are we to complain when they send their troops over to Britain to force us to accept full blown communism - after all, they are convinced that they are right and that communism is the answer to the world's problems. The Chinese public will probably cheer their troops on when they start bombing British and American insurgents who refuse to accept the hammer & sickle on UK/US soil, just as our public cheers when the British/US roll in to Iraq with their superior hardware.

Of course, if someone next door to me was being murdered I would need to call the police. That's because my next door neighbour lives under British jurisdicion. Libyans haven't signed up to live under British or American law. Suppose I was speaking to someone in Libya on the telephone, when all of a sudden I heared screams and shouts for help. Do I call the Metropolitan police in London or the LAPD in America to go and investigate?

We can lobby our governments to cease trading with Libya or we can donate Christian aid (I don't like the word 'humanitarian' because it reminds me of humanism) to help those poor souls who need it.

AMEN!

[EmmaLee]

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." Thomas Jefferson

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit...."
John Quincy Adams, 1821

Our Founders must be weeping...

[n8-r]

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none." Thomas Jefferson

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit...."
John Quincy Adams, 1821

Our Founders must be weeping...

Exactly! The proper role of gov't is to only protect it's own.

[n8-r]

If every member would read these two books, they would have a clear understanding of proper gov't and the abuses and corruption the majority of people have been deceived into believing, accepting, and following by prostituted Gov't. The author of these books was an LDS general authority.

http://www.redhotlogo.com/1-Great%20and ... inable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.redhotlogo.com/4-Proper-Impr ... 20Govt.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[n8-r]

@ EnglishSaint: if you could somehow just get people around you to read the two above books and understand the principles, a lot of your frustrations would disappear. I am trying to get everyone I know to learn these right principles so they can cast off the socialistic lies we have all been programed with. BTW, I'm British by birth. We moved to the US when I was a year old, but I went back to Oxford, England to live for a year in 2007 to get acquainted with my roots. I got to know the people well so I can relate to your frustrations. England is a lovely place with good people, but they are very blinded just as Americans are. It's getting about as bad over here....... worse in some ways.

[EmmaLee]

If every member would read these two books, they would have a clear understanding of proper gov't and the abuses and corruption the majority of people have been deceived into believing, accepting, and following by prostituted Gov't. The author of these books was an LDS general authority.

http://www.redhotlogo.com/1-Great%20and ... inable.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.redhotlogo.com/4-Proper-Impr ... 20Govt.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree wholeheartedly, n8-r; these books are amazing, and very eye-opening. Two big thumbs up on the suggestion for every member to read them, regardless of our location on the planet or citizenship.

[n8-r]

I agree wholeheartedly, n8-r; these books are amazing, and very eye-opening. Two big thumbs up on the suggestion for every member to read them, regardless of our location on the planet or citizenship.

Yes. In the end we will all eventually be under the rule of one gov't which is Christ's. Eventually we will all have to learn these things or be cast off. Better to get the jump on it and prepare in advance, even if we arent able to fully live these principles right now, we can embrace them in heart. I always thought I was pretty solid in my beliefs of freedom, until i read these books. I had as you describe, an eye opening experience. I had to immediately change a few beliefs I thought were patriotic and right because they in fact were very socialistic in essence.

[Songbird]

Songbird, I used to see things the way you do. Now, I'm not so sure. We were not meant to be the world's policeman. Our country has neither the money nor the manpower for all our military is doing. But do we have the "right" to go into other countries and decide who rules them? I think not! Certainly the Lord can turn these situations so there is a positive outcome. Previous wars did help in opening countries to the spread of the gospel. ( The Lord is always in charge of the outcome.) However, that does not mean the wars were righteous. Now our Americans leaders think we have the right to tell everyone else how to live. The better way would have been through example and helping others have a change of heart. Forcing changes in other countries' gov'ts is not for us to decide. If we had left things to the Lord, He could have done it without so much bloodshed.

Qaddafi is awful. There's no debate about that, but what or who will replace him and might he be even worse? The Church does it the right way....through humanitarian help. The gov't just throws money and might at countries, trying to get them to bend to our will and our sense of "democracy". Our gov't has supported some truly awful leaders because they were friendly to us. The people in those countries suffered, too. It seems our gov't helps only those who can be useful. I think most of our military men and women think they are serving a wonderful cause, and I love them for it. But I have seen a terrible waste of some of our best and brightest in wars that really haven't helped freedom.

Kathyn, this conversation has gotten too complicated for me, but I wanted to respond to you....remember that the Lord uses whatever means he can to bring His purposes to fruition. Example, Nephi killing Laban. I agree that we don't have the right to decide who rules which country because it is none of our business. Of course, in our own country someone wanted to have Obama where he is...I don't believe he was rightfully elected into office, but that is another conversation. In the end, the Lord will have to work all this out and as someone has said, the best thing we can and should be doing is be a light unto the world that others may see our good works and Glorify their Father in Heaven....

[Shimdidly]

I would not support any government sponsored war or occupation in another country. If they are attacking us on our own land we have a right to defend our freedoms just like the Nephites did. Private individuals giving of their time and substance to aid those unfortunate in other countries is righteous and encouraged. It is not within the proper role of government to enforce laws in other nations.

[1984Orwellherenow]

3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I don't think this happens overnight. Japan became peaceful. Russia doesn't make war anymore. Germany has controlled the Neo-Nazi's. Iraq has fallen. Libya is on the verge. One by one... The law will go forth from what country/continent?

[Jason]

3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

I don't think this happens overnight. Japan became peaceful. Russia doesn't make war anymore. Germany has controlled the Neo-Nazi's. Iraq has fallen. Libya is on the verge. One by one... The law will go forth from what country/continent?

How's the missionary work going in Afghanistan and Iraq?