LDS Freedom Forum

It’s hard to imagine the concept of eternity. Everything we know and experience is so temporary and finite. In mortality there are so many starts and finishes, beginnings and ends. Time plays a major role in our lives and minds. We use time concepts all day everyday. We use time concepts while performing tasks each day and when thinking of and planning out future events. So for us the concept of eternity is mind boggling.

For me, when I think about Zion (living in a society where the Law of C is present, all people are living to love and serve others, etc) I cant comprehend it. Just like eternity, I understand the concept, yet I can’t fully grasp it.

Someone might label me as a pessimist and that’s fine, but I like to think of myself as a realist. I know there are good people in the world and I would like to have hope that most people do the right thing, but they really don’t. I know a lot of people because of the life I’ve lived and by large most people are selfish and do what they can to “cheat” for lack of better word. Cheat a system, take advantage, whatever you wanna call it.

I just don’t think Zion could ever come about with our current world mentality and set up, especially Americans. Peopleb may think it possible to segregate and create Zion now, but I don’t know. I cant imagine people, LDS or not, being able to do it. Just like the incomprehensible details of eternity. I mean, I want Zion to happen and Im sure there are those that could do it, but not on the scale needed by the Lord.

Babylon must fall in order for Zion to happen.

The playing field must be leveled and stripped of the worldly distractions of TV and fashion and music production and fancy cars and houses and lofty positions of power and prestige and notice. All the social status and social norms of whats mine is mine and I earned it and the total disconnect among everyone not bearing others burdens cause its not their problem will only go away once there is no social status or social norms.

Could you imagine telling your ward members to remember the counsel of the prophets that it is our DUTY to not be materialistic and to actually make plans to use your money for others??? Im sorry, but I couldn’t imagine people actually giving up status and material things for the sake of others. The general attitude is, how can I? or, im sure others have the means but I don’t!!

“We must declare the essential need to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before Him in soberness, or in other words, with reverence. Each must be persuaded that service and sacrifice for the well-being and happiness of others are far superior to making one’s own comfort and possessions the highest priority.”
Elder D. Todd Christofferson

The Lord called Enoch’s people Zion “because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them” (Moses 7:18). Elsewhere He said, “For this is Zion—the pure in heart” (D&C 97:21).
Notice the part that states, no poor among them. The scripture gives the requirements of Zion and there it is. Of one heart and one mind. I don’t think we can comprehend that right now. Really think about what that means. Its not my children, your children, my house your house, its OURs.

Without the complete removal of our current societal norms, I can’t imagine Zion.

I hope for Zion and hope we could do it while Babylon still holds on to so many.

Some may say I cant imagine it cause I am THAT person. I have many weaknesses and struggle with plenty of things. But I am not materialistic. I have been to many wards in many states and have rubbed shoulders with many walks of life in and out of the Church. I say the things I say based on my observation only. I hope Im wrong about a few things.

The structure as we now know it in American society must crumble first.


Throughout history, the Lord has measured societies and individuals by how well they cared for the poor. He has said:
“For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.
“Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment” (D&C 104:17–18; see also D&C 56:16–17).
Furthermore, He declares, “In your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld” (D&C 70:14; see also D&C 49:20; 78:5–7).
We control the disposition of our means and resources, but we account to God for this stewardship over earthly things. It is gratifying to witness your generosity as you contribute to fast offerings and humanitarian projects. Over the years, the suffering of millions has been alleviated, and countless others have been enabled to help themselves through the generosity of the Saints. Nevertheless, as we pursue the cause of Zion, each of us should prayerfully consider whether we are doing what we should and all that we should in the Lord’s eyes with respect to the poor and the needy.
We might ask ourselves, living as many of us do in societies that worship possessions and pleasures, whether we are remaining aloof from covetousness and the lust to acquire more and more of this world’s goods. Materialism is just one more manifestation of the idolatry and pride that characterize Babylon. Perhaps we can learn to be content with what is sufficient for our needs. Elder D. Todd Christofferson "Come to Zion," , (October 4, 2008)

Here is the talk, Come to Zion, in full:
http://lds.org/general-conference/2008/ ... n?lang=eng

Babylon must fall in order for Zion to happen.

The playing field must be leveled and stripped of the worldly distractions of TV and fashion and music production and fancy cars and houses and lofty positions of power and prestige and notice. All the social status and social norms of whats mine is mine and I earned it and the total disconnect among everyone not bearing others burdens cause its not their problem will only go away once there is no social status or social norms.

BIngo. (and don't forget the secret combinations also must fall).

How did the Nephites do it? It took massive destructions in nature killing all he wicked, sparing the "less wicked", coupled with a rather impressive appearance of the Savior & angels, followed up with powerful testimony by the disciples to convert all the rest of the survivors in just a few months and become a Zion society for nearly 200 years.

The early Christians in Jerusalem did okay for a few years, but persecutions from both Jew and Roman, plus natural man greed in a "chosen-people" city environment immersed in self-righteousness and pride by Jewish leaders, and Hellenic philosophies by the gentile upper classes (and what Jews wanted to be popular) eventually did them in. I don't hink the LOC ever got off the ground for long in Judea.

The City of Enoch was in a primitive environment and it faced constant threat of attack from those who were anti-God. Fortunately, Enoch had the power and instruction via the Priesthood to defend the city and people, yet the people themselves still made the choices to live completely righteously.

I guess a very simple agrarian society is the way to go. No big city worldliness or corporate capitalism, let alone technology spewing narcissism, lusts and lies to the masses.

I can't wait for the Celestial Kingdom. No TV, Internet, radio, DVD's etc - only a giant Urim & Thumim (and your own white stone).

Excellent post, Epistemology. I can't envision Zion being established until the Church goes through tremendous trials and suffering - the likes of which the Church has never seen before - which is the only way to get a people humble enough to build Zion. And if we aren't willingly humble, the Lord will compel us to be so - as we use fire to temper steel, the Savior uses trials to temper our character.

Here's a personal example of what I think you're talking about. I was in the RS presidency a couple of years ago. During one of our presidency meetings, the RS president showed us (two counselors and secretary) the food order form of one of the families in the ward. She was in a huge huff about it, saying such things as, "They eat better than my family does!" "There's only four of them, and look at all the food they're wanting the Church to buy them!" etc.. Then she said, quote, "As long as our Bishop coddles families like this, my husband and I are reducing our Fast Offerings by half" - and I (we) fully believe that they did. Now, this was the RELIEF SOCIETY PRESIDENT saying these things, a woman who then, and now, is considered to be a righteous pillar in our ward and stake. So how close are we to building Zion? A long, long way off, IMO; and it won't be acheived without massive humbling/refining first. But, it will be acheived!!

Here's a personal example of what I think you're talking about. I was in the RS presidency a couple of years ago. During one of our presidency meetings, the RS president showed us (two counselors and secretary) the food order form of one of the families in the ward. She was in a huge huff about it, saying such things as, "They eat better than my family does!" "There's only four of them, and look at all the food they're wanting the Church to buy them!" etc.. Then she said, quote, "As long as our Bishop coddles families like this, my husband and I are reducing our Fast Offerings by half" - and I (we) fully believe that they did. Now, this was the RELIEF SOCIETY PRESIDENT saying these things, a woman who then, and now, is considered to be a righteous pillar in our ward and stake.

My wife and I has had experiences like that. of course she had seven children before I married her, and afterward, several of her adult children would come home to stay in midst of divorce, bringing all their little ones as well. Of course we fed them, and with us each being unemployed at times, naturally others looked at us each/together as scoffed and complained. Eventually the Bishop complained to us, that we were a drain on the ward. I am glad we no longer live there.

Thats exactly the point I was getting at Stella. One of my LDS friends has told me and others for the past 8 years, "If I don't have a plane by the time Im 40, Im a failure." And this is not a joke he is making, he is DEAD serious.

I absolutely agree that it is hard to envision Zion in the present world. We really have taken on the characteristics of Babylon. IMO babylon will make it so hard on the saints that they will have no choice but to bring Zion if they are going to survive. Only then can Christ give the help that will be required.

As far as I can tell, the LDGs will come after the church, and satan will try to wipe us out. We will have to build Zion, because that will be our only safety. When satan sees that he can't touch Zion he will go after Jerusalem, and then the battle of Armageddon will take place. The armies will eventually kill each other, etc.

Unfortunately, we have to bring Zion in the midst of Babylon, and people will take themselves out of the church when the are asked to live the law of consecration. I have decided to stop worrying about anything but figuring out how to bring Zion. that is where the safety lies.

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the problem is the goal and focus on getting more toys and toys for status instead of focusing on your family and things that matter.

Epistemology wrote:the problem is the goal and focus on getting more toys and toys for status instead of focusing on your family and things that matter.

Exactly right! This is a major problem in our ward, as I imagine it is in most...

Rincon wrote:

Epistemology wrote:Thats exactly the point I was getting at Stella. One of my LDS friends has told me and others for the past 8 years, "If I don't have a plane by the time Im 40, Im a failure." And this is not a joke he is making, he is DEAD serious.

I bought my first plane when I was 28. Evidently I am headed strait to Hell


Actaully very few of us will even be called to Jackson County, because one of the requirements is that we be debt free. That will weed out about 98%.

No prophet anywhere has said this is a requirement.

I agree with many of the concerns that have been presented, however, I would encourage you to embrace a feeling of hope, rather than despair, when pondering upon future events.

There are many all around me in my ward who continually surprise me at their financial and other decisions, but I am not their judge. We are commanded to love each other.

Perhaps we can help some of those who struggle with greed and selfishness by being better examples ourselves, and by sharing our testimonies of what it means to be a Zion people.

There is a great book out there called, 'America's Hope', and it really focuses on the fact that in order for us to try to help save our country, we need to do more missionary work, and help others come to an understanding of the covenants between God and those who live upon the American continent. It compares the destruction of the Jaredites and Nephites with our society today, and there are definitely some frightening trends.

Remember my friends, "Faith precedes the miracle".

Totally hard to fathom. Case in point, this current thread: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... =1&t=16619

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Don't give up just yet...

Ether 12: 4-9
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

5 And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

7 For it was by faith that Christ showed himself unto our fathers, after he had risen from the dead; and he showed not himself unto them until after they had faith in him; wherefore, it must needs be that some had faith in him, for he showed himself not unto the world.

8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, that they might hope for those things which they have not seen.

9 Wherefore, ye may also have hope, and be partakers of the gift, if ye will but have faith.

Rincon wrote:

Nan wrote:
Actaully very few of us will even be called to Jackson County, because one of the requirements is that we be debt free. That will weed out about 98%.

No prophet anywhere has said this is a requirement.

If you had asked me for the quote I would have provided it, but instead you just criticized my post.[/quote]

May I know how you came to this conclusion. Not saying you're wrong just would like to hear your reasoning.

Rincon wrote:
Nan wrote:

Actaully very few of us will even be called to Jackson County, because one of the requirements is that we be debt free. That will weed out about 98%.

No prophet anywhere has said this is a requirement.

If you had asked me for the quote I would have provided it, but instead you just criticized my post.

Post your quote or hold your tongue.

Debt? Student Loans, Medical, A modest home, Failed buisnesses, fines from a corrupt government, bankruptcies, ect... ect.. Then someone losses their job, and is in bondage then they will not be included in your Roger K. Young society? we have counciled to avoid Debt, Sometimes that is not possible. All things belong to the Lord we are all in debt to him and him alone.


Whatever,What about a faithful wife and a debt ridden husband, or vice versa. I am sure the Lord is going to let a whole family suffer for the consequences because of one family member.If this is what you believe then your God and mine are not the same.

It's obvious from some of these comments that people don't understand what lies ahead. America is going to be swept clean. The wicked cities of New York, Boston, San Francisco etc. will be wiped out. Who are you going to owe money to? The bankers will be gone. Only the pure in heart will enter the City of Zion. Thats what rules out about 98% of the church. It's got nothing to do with debt.

When the Brethren say get out of debt they mean now. It will save a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people. Theyre talking about the run up to the establishment of Zion. You can't have wicked luciferian bankers and con men operating in Zion. When Zion comes there won't any banks or credit card companies to owe money to. It's not going to be nice but it will be worth it. The Saints are going to die like flies but the one's that are left will see Zion redeemed.

It's obvious from some of these comments that people don't understand what lies ahead. America is going to be swept clean. The wicked cities of New York, Boston, San Francisco etc. will be wiped out. Who are you going to owe money to? The bankers will be gone. Only the pure in heart will enter the City of Zion. Thats what rules out about 98% of the church. It's got nothing to do with debt.

I agree, I believe it is about to happen.

will wrote:

It's obvious from some of these comments that people don't understand what lies ahead. America is going to be swept clean. The wicked cities of New York, Boston, San Francisco etc. will be wiped out. Who are you going to owe money to? The bankers will be gone. Only the pure in heart will enter the City of Zion. Thats what rules out about 98% of the church. It's got nothing to do with debt.

I agree, I believe it is about to happen.

I don't think we are quite there yet. There could be many who believe we've seen the day of reckoning on debt.....but I think we've had a very slow slide since early 2009. I expect it to ramp up fairly significantly over the next 6 months. jmo fwiw