LDS Freedom Forum

This question was posed on another thread. What would the members response be to a call from President Monson to turn our food over to the local leaders of the Church?

My response is it will never happen. I base my opinion upon the parable of the 10 virgins, and other research.

The five wise virgins responded to the five foolish virgins "not so lest there not be enough for me and mine, go and buy from the them that sell"

If we apply this parable to our food storage then I don't see a requirement ever coming down from the leaders to turn our food storage over to local leaders.

I also have searched for an example of the Lord ever blessing someone, anyone for being disobedient. If My neighbors that were slothful and did not prepare were able to partake of my food, and others food because of a call from the Prophet to turn our food in then they would be blessed in their disobedience.

We are also taught that all commandments are spiritual in nature, but most are achieved by temporal means.

It will be interesting to read others comments

Vision wrote:This question was posed on another thread. What would the members response be to a call from President Monson to turn our food over to the local leaders of the Church?

My response is it will never happen. I base my opinion upon the parable of the 10 virgins, and other research.

The five wise virgins responded to the five foolish virgins "not so lest there not be enough for me and mine, go and buy from the them that sell"

If we apply this parable to our food storage then I don't see a requirement ever coming down from the leaders to turn our food storage over to local leaders.

I also have searched for an example of the Lord ever blessing someone, anyone for being disobedient. If My neighbors that were slothful and did not prepare were able to partake of my food, and others food because of a call from the Prophet to turn our food in then they would be blessed in their disobedience.

We are also taught that all commandments are spiritual in nature, but most are achieved by temporal means.

It will be interesting to read others comments

exactly, well said

Well said.......

I fully agree, but I can tell you that the argument will be that the parable of the ten virgins was regarding SPIRITUAL preparation only. 8-|

I believe that as things deteriorate that people will be asked to continue to give generously in offerings to assist those in need.

I don't know if it will or will not happen but there are plenty of times past in emergencies where this indeed happened. The Teton dam situation in 1983 is a good example. It was done, to my knowledge, to stream line distribution to those with immediate needs (and there were many). I've heard of it happening in Haiti. When I was on my mission we experienced a hurricane and it happened then.

I think the possibility of this happening is significant.

The real question is this.... If the Government went to the Church leadership and "asked" them to instruct the membership to "donate" their preparations for the good of those in need according to the governments instructions... would they do it. I can understand individuals both in and out of the Church helping those in need.... but what if directions or instructions came down from Salt Lake to deliver your food storage to your stake center as per government instructions/regulations/orders. Would you do it then?

Vaughn J. Featherstone, “Food Storage,” Ensign, May 1976, 116
“Do I share with my neighbors who have not followed the counsel? And what about the nonmembers who do not have a year’s supply? Do we have to share with them?” No, we don’t have to share—we get to share! Let us not be concerned about silly thoughts of whether we would share or not. Of course we would share! What would Jesus do? I could not possibly eat food and see my neighbors starving. And if you starve to death after sharing, “greater love hath no man than this …” (John 15:13.)

Now what about those who would plunder and break in and take that which we have stored for our families’ needs? Don’t give this one more idle thought.


That said, how I see it is that the US Government will have food distribution in certain cities and people who are still alive will voluntarily take FEMA trains and buses to those food distribution cities. Some trains may never arrive at their expected destination. And if they do arrive, disease just might break out among the masses of people living in cramped unsanitary conditions around the food distribution point. Moral of the story---avoid the FEMA trains.

But we may convince a few Ishmael like families to stay and hunker down with us, especially if they have certain needed skills which will help us survive. We will also naturally share the gospel with those we convince to not board the FEMA trains and buses.

In addition to the FEMA trains, also remember to avoid government peanut butter.

Sharing <> Turning in everything to the bishop for redistribution. Certainly we will be encouraged to share, and most will. But the church asking for all storage to be turned in for redistribution - I think the likliehood of that is minuscule.

Even in the eexamples you gave, Davedan, those were generally localized problems and aid was being brought in from surrounding, unaffected areas. If we have a systemic collapse, what "surrounding areas" are going to be bringing in supplies? Also, if the collapse is just caused by skyrocketing food prices, at what price point would such a program be implemented? I don't think it will happen.

I can envision situations or conditions under which members would be asked to deliver their storage food to their ward building for either redistribution or meals preparation and service at the building. And the distribution or service would probably be available to all persons, members and non-members, residing within the ward boundaries.

I sometimes wonder why we in the Church have so many ward/branch dinners and other activities involving food perparation and service in church buildings. Could these be divinely inspired practice runs ?

Original_Intent wrote:I fully agree, but I can tell you that the argument will be that the parable of the ten virgins was regarding SPIRITUAL preparation only. 8-|

I believe that as things deteriorate that people will be asked to continue to give generously in offerings to assist those in need.

I am probably one of those that would say that the parable of the ten virgins WAS regarding spiritual preparation. I've thought on that parable just recently and wondered what was the reason those who had prepared didn't "share" with the others. The answer I've gotten...so far...is that their preparation was in a way that could not be shared. Someone who is prepared spiritually cannot GIVE that spiritualality to someone else. That is something we each have to work out in this life. On the other hand...because of one's spiritual preparation, there's no doubt in my mind that THAT person would share willingly of food and other material things.

All,

It is refreshing to see that so many members of this board would be willing to share their food with the grasshoppers around them. Obviously, we have to be selective in how we do so (Good opportunity to get down on one's knees).

But I have long believed that I do not want to survive in a world that requires me to machine gun down my starving neighbors that I may enjoy my stored food.

Regards,

George Clay

natasha wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:I fully agree, but I can tell you that the argument will be that the parable of the ten virgins was regarding SPIRITUAL preparation only. 8-|

I believe that as things deteriorate that people will be asked to continue to give generously in offerings to assist those in need.

I am probably one of those that would say that the parable of the ten virgins WAS regarding spiritual preparation. I've thought on that parable just recently and wondered what was the reason those who had prepared didn't "share" with the others. The answer I've gotten...so far...is that their preparation was in a way that could not be shared. Someone who is prepared spiritually cannot GIVE that spiritualality to someone else. That is something we each have to work out in this life. On the other hand...because of one's spiritual preparation, there's no doubt in my mind that THAT person would share willingly of food and other material things.

The virgins didn't say that it was something that couldn;t be shared. They said they would not share, lest there not be enough for themselves. Of course if you want to force an interpretation, one can change as much of a parable as they want to fit their paradigm. See, you actually twisted it to the point of saying "Of course if you are one of the wise virgins (spiritually prepared, per your interpretation) OF COURSE such a person would share. Umm pardon, but the parable says that they did NOT share, and you switch it around to mean that of course they would?!? #-o

and this response has been brought up in previous threads...

“Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church -- and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing – a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned.” (God, Family, Country, p. 383.)

How would a famine cleanse the church of slothful members, if everything is just going into the community chest for redistribution? It's a foolish doctrine to preach that this is going to be done.

originalIntent,

Tough call. On one hand, if we indiscriminately share the food will be soon gone and we all starve. On the other hand, If we don't share anything with anybody, we are being selfish. I am glad that we have been promised that the prophet will never lead us astray. I hope that when the time comes we will have clear direction as to what to do. At least from the HG if not anybody of flesh.

As far as the parable of the 10 virgins the SMA (Standard Mormon Answer) given every 4 years when we study NT, is that this parable refers to spiritual preparedness that cannot be shared. You pointed out a potential weakness in that SMA. Still we need to be careful in how we apply parables..

I know I grind my teeth every year when I hear Jesus quoted talking about salt losing its savor I want to shout, salt is a VERY stable compound that doesn't spoil. How can it lose it's savor? I guess if I'm not careful, I can let my knowlege of chemistry interfere with the point of the parable.

Regards,

George Clay

I can envision situations or conditions under which members would be asked to deliver their storage food to their ward building for either redistribution or meals preparation and service at the building. And the distribution or service would probably be available to all persons, members and non-members, residing within the ward boundaries.

I sometimes wonder why we in the Church have so many ward/branch dinners and other activities involving food perparation and service in church buildings. Could these be divinely inspired practice runs ?

That might not work for our family. We live 63 miles from the Ward building.

Two of our family members have dreamed of having to use horse power to travel. It would take a couple of days by horseback to get to the church and two to get back home again. I sure would not want our horses to end up eaten somewhere along the way.

We would be happy to donate sheep, eggs, hay, garden produce, wild fruit, etc. I did hear a woman on Ian Punnet the other evening talking about the benefits of domestically raised rabbits in the backyard as a renewable and easily managed protein source.

I guess the reason that I get the most concerned about this idea of sharing is not to promote selfishness. It is the temporal version (in my view) of the doctrine that eventually everyone will receive exaltation. In other words, it may be true, but the harm comes in that it encourages people to be lulled into a false sense of security and to procrastinate their preparations (spiritual in the one case, temporal in the other.)

It is a fine doctrine to say that sharing will be a privilege (and I agree, what could bring more joy than to know you had a part in saving another person's or multiple peoples lives.) But the concern that arises is that if that becomes the accepted view, it encourages people to be "grasshoppers" and not enough people to be "ants".

Every person needs to prepare as if they will have only their own preparations to rely on, and then additional to help those who most certainly will need their help - as they are able.

But George, I hope you understand I am not saying we shouldn't share - far from it! But I do think what sharing is done is going to be voluntary and on an individual contribution basis - I think the chance of the call going out to share everything on a communal level is remote, and I certainly would not want to encourage anyone to believe they could depend on that.

How can it lose it's savor?

It can be watered down.

If watered down onto the ground it renders the soil sterile; 'good for nothing'.

Dr. Jones posted this quote on the forum about six weeks ago:

"The principle of self-reliance or personal independence is fundamental to the happy life. In too many places, in too many ways, we are getting away from it.

The substance of what I want to say is this: The same principle self-reliance—has application to the spiritual and to the emotional.

We have been taught to store a year’s supply of food, clothing, and, if possible, fuel—at home. There has been no attempt to set up storerooms in every chapel. We know that in the crunch our members may not be able to get to the chapel for supplies.

Can we not see that the same principle applies to inspiration and revelation, the solving of problems, to counsel, and to guidance?

We need to have a source of it stored in every home, not just in the bishop’s office.

If we do not do that, we are quite as threatened spiritually as we should be were we to assume that the Church should supply all material needs."

Elder Boyd K. Packer, May 1978 Ensign

As far as cooking up food at church, unless something has recently changed, our kitchens are only to be used for instructional purposes and for warming food for meals. Preparation and cooking is to be done elsewhere. This is due to local laws and regulations. And the Church has always counseled members to follow both the counsel of the Church leaders and local laws.

I think the key to self-sufficiency is to have - not only the storable commodities needed for a family's sustenance - but also as many ways and means of 'producing' necessities from renewable sources; gardens, container plants, seed sprouts, hens, bee hives, rabbits for meat, fruit trees, etc. With your own family's ability to 'produce' food you will always have the means to trade with others who have also found ways to apply their individual skills.

I don't think such a direction would come from Salt Lake. I think it would depend upon the location. I live in a Stake that has six wards in a 15-block area. My ward is just 3-blocks by 3-blocks. I KNOW we would be hunkered together because it has already been discussed. While most of my neighbors are members and strong ones at that I do have a non-member family right next door and a less active member family on either side of me. They are great people and would likely participate. It wouldn't be done, in my view, as "redistribution" as it would be for protection. Just my opinion.

Vaughn J. Featherstone, happily, is a neighbor.

I think that those who don't prepare who are still fed by others, whether in a church building or by an individual member will have to live with the knowledge that they should have been helping others instead of being fed themselves.

On the other hand, we were told that there would be a day that the food storage would be as valuable to us as the ark was to Noah. We all know what happened to the people who weren't on the ark. This would seem to imply that those who do not prepare will not be fed by others and would die.

I think the best thing we can conclude from this is that we just don't know how it is going to be handled, but we do know we need a food storage and we need to encourage others around us to have one as well.

We also need to determine that whatever we are told to do with it by our leaders we will follow.

And of course, we need to vow to share it with whomever we feel prompted to share it with.

The church would never ask anyone to turn in their food storage to it for re-distribution to others on a collective basis. It makes no sense for each of us to be given counsel to get our houses in order with food storage, 72 hour kits, spiritual preparation, etc. only for the church to ask us to turn it over to them so that they could distribute it collectively in an emergecy situation to those who did not prepare. I think the brethren and our church leaders would hope that we would share it with others (neighbors, the elderly, needy, etc.) who may not have had the ability or means to prepare themselves temporally, but never will we be required to 'hand it over' to the church - that goes against free agency and also makes a mockery of the parable of the 10 virgins - why prepare if others are going to provide for you? I can see a scenario where we are advised that the time had come to re-locate to places of safety as the Lord rains down his judgments upon the earth and the church providing vehicles and modes of transportation that would help to transport food stuffs to these areas, but never would they ask everyone to turn in their food storage so that others who had no prepared had what they needed - this will come, in my opinion, by the free will of those who have enough to share and their compassion for others.

We live in a neighborhood with other houses close all around us. I doubt we could hold off a determined effort to relieve us of our food. We could be burned/smoked out of our house fairly easily.

lundbaek wrote:We live in a neighborhood with other houses close all around us. I doubt we could hold off a determined effort to relieve us of our food. We could be burned/smoked out of our house fairly easily.

Yes, the "Mad Max" scenarios are all too easy to imagine. I really don't think it will come to this, or will only be in rare situations.

I jsut think food and other things are going to get mroe and more expensive, unemployment is going to rise. Yes crime will probably also rise, and I think when it does we will also see the justice system becoming a lot more strict. People are willing to put up with some nonsense when things are going good, but if it is a survival situation things like theft become a lot more serious and people will demand justice. Even murder, which is a serious as any crime can be, during good times it seems enlightened and noble to give them life imprisonment - but what about when the state is bankrupt? Are people going to be willing to pay to guard, feed, and house violent criminals when they can't afford to give their kids a good government indoctrination - err I mean education? I don't think so.

lundbaek wrote:We live in a neighborhood with other houses close all around us. I doubt we could hold off a determined effort to relieve us of our food. We could be burned/smoked out of our house fairly easily.

Not if you're on your doostep with a shotgun and someone in the back packing as well daring someone to make a move - in my opinion though, I think you'll be OK in Arizona - it's places like major cities and areas where welfare is rampant where looting and/or mobs will form as they look for anyone and anything they can to take from. You don't want to live in or around Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, etc. if something has happened and food is scarce or totally unavailable. Being in Mesa, Arizona, I think you'll be fine - just make sure you have a way of protecting your property in the event of a breakdown of law and order.

I think this can be illustrated by a subplot in the Millennial Glory series by Wendy L. Edwards.

The situation arises because things are worsening rapidly in the USA (unknown to all, the IMF is about to steal ALL money out of every account in America – leaving the only ones with money being those that have it in their pocket or in their home).

Before this happens, the Bishop has a prompting to call the ward together for a midweek meeting in the cultural hall to assess what everyone’s food storage is, as well as to find out any special needs. About half the ward families were represented. Many were unprepared and in disbelief anything would happen. Others were caught up in their materialism.

The Bishop has the quorum presidencies contact the families not at the meeting. Once the surveys were finished, the results were as us here expect: less than half have ANYTHING beyond 1 month – if that, only about 10-20% had 3 months, and only about 5% had a year’s supply of food. Nearly all did not have much water stored.

As alluded to, push soon came to shove. The Bishop prayed about who to call in and ask to share with some of the widows – and as also expected, many of those prepared (and life-long active members) refused to share what they had, and stormed out prideful and bitter.

As a further note of interest: when the UN offered its chip with promise of food, water, gasoline, money, a job, keep your house, etc. – most of those who were unprepared, and all of the materialist families ended up taking the chip – despite the Prophet coming out and saying don’t do it.

Guess what? The chips were all destroyed when a nuclear EMP melted them, but releases the streptococcus flesh eating bacteria that were held in stasis in the chip. They were all dead within 2 days.