LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent,

"But George, I hope you understand I am not saying we shouldn't share -
far from it! But I do think what sharing is done is going to be voluntary
and on an individual contribution basis - I think the chance of the call
going out to share everything on a communal level is remote,
and I certainly would not want to encourage anyone to believe they could depend on that."

I have read your posts on this site before and I think they are well thought out and reflect someone with a good heart who is struggling the issues of the day. And of course that is the main purpose of this forum. So of course I didn't think that you wouldn't be willing to share.

I was just commenting upon how in such a struggle we can bend and twist scripture into something it isn't meant to mean. I don't even dispute your suggested interpretation of the parable of the 10 virgins. It could be a precisly accurate implementation. I was just noting that just because it looks like a perfect fit; doesn't mean it is. I guess we can't take our own reasoning without subjigating it to the Lords confirmation in praryer... And he may still wait untill his own due time to reveal it to us.

Regards,

George Clay

Vision wrote:I also have searched for an example of the Lord ever blessing someone, anyone for being disobedient. If My neighbors that were slothful and did not prepare were able to partake of my food, and others food because of a call from the Prophet to turn our food in then they would be blessed in their disobedience.

We are also taught that all commandments are spiritual in nature, but most are achieved by temporal means.

It will be interesting to read others comments

Already the Church assists people who often are foolish and need help with food (aren't we all beggars?). They take the money that we donate, and redistribute it to people in need. It's not that hard of a stretch to think that they won't do it with food when things get really bad.

But aside from that it's not always as black and white as you make it out to be. What if someone had a years supply, but, because of the tough economic times, the husband is laid off and they have had to resort to living off their food storage for several months leaving their preps severely depelted. (That's one of the main reasons we have been told to have food storage.) So when things really start heating up do you watch them starve and suffer alongside the foolish virgins? Do you really want to interview each person who needs food to determine their worthiness?

I can't say if the Church will ever ask (they will never require) members to pool their food together and then reditribute it, but I do know that if it ever happens I'd do it in a heartbeat, and leave it to my bishop be the one to decide who is worthy to live and who should starve. I'd rather give what I had and be a part of the company and security of my ward and stake family (D&C 115:6) than go it alone. The only way the pioneers were able to survive mobs, starvation and the elements was by banding together and living and dying together under the divine guidance of the Prophet. I suspect if we are to survive the last days it will be in a similar fashion.

From the living President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, President Boyd K. Packer (January 2010 Ensign, pgs 50-51, excerpts, but the whole article is great!) -

"The welfare handbook instructs: "We must earnestly teach and urge Church members to be self-sustaining to the full extent of their powers. No true Latter-day Saint will voluntarily shift from himself the burden of his own support. So long as he can, under the inspiration of the Almighty and with his own labors, he will supply himself with the necessities of life."

"If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order."

"When people are able but unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer." (D&C 42:42)

"The aim of the Church is to help people help themselves. It is a self-help system, not a quick handout system. It is not an unkind or an unfeeling bishop who requires a member to work to the fullest extent he can for what he receives from Church welfare." (end of Pres. Packer's quote)

(Italics in original)

Speaking of welfare in the context of what President Packer is describing is NOT the same as dealing with an emergency or doomsday scenario.

During the pioneer trek west much was had in common, especially food. I would call that an emergency situation. I don't think "force" has anything to do with it. A Bishop's job (partly) is to see to the temporal well being of his ward. This has been handled in LOTS of creative ways, especially in an emergency. To blindly say "the Church would never do that" is to ignore establish precedent.

I, for one, look forward to fulfilling that part of my covenants when or if the Bishop or other representative of the Lord asks for what I have that can be used as it was during the time of Enoch.

edzachary wrote:Speaking of welfare in the context of what President Packer is describing is NOT the same as dealing with an emergency or doomsday scenario.

I knew someone would argue with, twist, and turn what a living prophet had to say on the subject of this thread, how sad. The original post does NOT mention "emergency or doomsday scenarios" (you and others turned the thread into such though), so posting Pres. Packer's quote was a very valid response to the original post. Besides, I wouldn't be so quick to say what 'contexts' Pres. Packer's prophetic words can and cannot be applied to - you do NOT speak for him (even if Vaughn Featherstone is your neighbor 8-| ).

(coloring and bolding is mine)

http://lds.org/ensign/2009/03/the-parab ... en+virgins

This ensign article clearly teaches us what the parable of the ten virgins means. While faithfully and obediently gathering food storage would apply, not having a complete food storage does not disqualify one from being one of the wise virgins.

"The Parable of the Ten Virgins", Ensign, Mar. 2009, 48–49

In this parable the virgins represent members of the Church, and the bridegroom represents Christ. The Lord explained to Joseph Smith that the wise virgins are those who “have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived” (D&C 45:57).

Nowhere in that sentence did it state and also those with a complete food storage.

The vessels in the parable were containers for storing extra oil. Being wise means being prepared for the unexpected with an extra measure of faith, testimony, and the Spirit in our lives. Sometimes we grow complacent, thinking we have enough to get by. But following the Savior means more than just getting by. It means always striving to draw closer to Him, preparing for those times when our patience, faith, and testimony will be tried.

Building and sharing one's food storage could certainly apply.

The oil lamps used by the Jews in Jesus’s day are called Herodian lamps, after King Herod. These lamps enabled people to carry light wherever they went. In the same way, we are to carry the light of the gospel with us (see Matthew 5:14–16).

The oil in the parable represents our faith and testimony, our purity and dedication, our good works, and our keeping of covenants—all of the ways in which we have “taken the Holy Spirit for [our] guide” (D&C 45:57).

Again nowhere does it say and having a year supply of food, although being dedicated in faithfully building our supply could apply.

The wise virgins could not share their oil with the foolish virgins because “the oil of spiritual preparedness cannot be shared” (Marvin J. Ashton, “A Time of Urgency,” Ensign, May 1974, 36).

It did not say the oil of spiritual and physical preparedness cannot be shared. We are taught that we cannot have the privilege of sharing/helping if we have no means in which to do so. Implying by us being physically prepared we can help others who need help.

“Attendance at sacrament meetings adds oil to our lamps, drop by drop over the years. Fasting, family prayer, home teaching, control of bodily appetites, preaching the gospel, studying the scriptures—each act of dedication and obedience is a drop added to our store. Deeds of kindness, payment of offerings and tithes, chaste thoughts and actions, marriage in the covenant for eternity—these, too, contribute importantly to the oil with which we can at midnight refuel our exhausted lamps.”
President Spencer W. Kimball (1895–1985), Faith Precedes the Miracle (1972), 256.

Again faithfully building a year supply can fall under obedience.

The point I'm trying to make is we are being told that the parable of the ten virgins is about spiritual preparation which cannot be shared. It is not about having a year supply of food storage. There are those of us who think, feel, believe that food storage has a huge part in this parable. It does not. It falls under obedience which is one of many parts of spiritual preparation. Every time we get a can, bag, box of food we are adding another drop of oil through obedience.

“Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church -- and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing – a famine in this land of one year's duration could wipe out a large percentage of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers. Yet we cannot say we have not been warned.” (God, Family, Country, p. 383.)

This does not necessarily mean that it will happen this way or that this is the purpose of food storage. He could have simply been implying that IF the Lord decided to do it that way then most of us would be wiped out. We are taught over and over again that food storage is a principle of self-reliance and that being self-reliant brings us happiness. It has made a huge difference for me being able to turn to my own food supply when I'm in need instead of the government. It brings peace, happiness, and a sense of true freedom to my soul. It also feels good being able to provide my neighbors and friends with food, toiletries, and clothes when they are in need. That is what it is all about. It's not death, doom, and destruction if you don't have a year supply. It lightens our burdens and the burdens of others. We need to be careful about injecting ideas into doctrines and princliples that were not meant to be there.

If there is a major breakdown, does anyone really believe that the government wouldn't take measures to control the situation by force? Sure, if the people in my neighborhood were going hungry, I'd share... no problem. But if history is any indication of what typically happens, the government wouldn't be counting on the good will and charity of others to help those in need. They would declare an emergency and issue orders. At that point, charity and volunteerism in order to help others disappears. I see it likely that the government would order the Church to instruct the members to surrender food and supplies in order to help THEM keep control. Food is control. The question is, would the Church comply with the order?

Scarecrow, I can see your point about helping those out in need with the Church's welfare program. If the program is followed freebies are not part of the equation. We all know the order in the Welfare program.

1. Family First
2. Ward next for immediate needs only, and the person receiving the help is encouraged/required to work for the help received. Immediate needs are pretty limited to food, and medical care. The handbook states that people should seek out other sources of long term help if that is what they require.

I sit one off of the bishop so there are times I have to fill in when he is out of town. It is hard to tell someone "no" but living recklessly does not warrant help in every case. I watched with awe as a family went inactive because the Bishop will not make their house payments when the Father won't work. He is fully capable, just refuses to get any job because of his pride. That is how the program works if it is administered properly. I have served with this new bishop for a year while he cleaned up a welfare program that was a mess from the previous bishop that I served with. I saw cars bought, house payments made while members bought new cars, cable bills paid, bills for personal trainers paid, and every ridiculous thing paid for under the old bishop. I am not bagging on him, because he just did not have the personality to say no. He was taken advantage of by people. He and the church were exploited by prideful members. Me and the other counselor tried to intervene, but he had the mantle and we could only do so much. I do know of another bishop in my ward who helped a family out with some cash for gas one night, he ended up behind them in the drive up window at McDonalds an hour later. Once he realized who was in front of them he got out of his car and went up and asked for the money back that he had just given them.

My post was very black and white I tend to be very black and white.

If you compare the parable of the 10 virgins with the parable of the wheat and tares and many of the stories in the BOM there is a method to separate the righteous from the unrighteous. I don't see how someone can be spiritual with a lamp full of oil and not have food storage and other items needed. That does not add up to me. I see it in my calling every week, the slothful members of my ward have all the problems, and the diligent righteous members have no issues. The righteous ones that have lost jobs have quickly found new jobs because of the blessings that come from being righteous, and the others have struggled to find employment. The Lord blesses the righteous period.

Momto5

Marion G Romney said this in the October 1981 Conference

“You must continue to bear in mind that the temporal and spiritual are blended. They are not separate. One cannot be carried on without the other, so long as we are here in mortality. …

From James E. Faust in 2006

"In the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins, each young woman had a lamp. Clearly, this parable has both a temporal and a spiritual application. Oil can be purchased at the market. But another kind of oil, spiritual oil that is not for sale, can be accumulated only by our daily good works."

And this scripture “And the idler shall not have place in the Church, except he repent and mend his ways.” (D&C 75:29.)

I don't need to say more than President Faust said in his quote.

Stella Solaris wrote:

edzachary wrote:Speaking of welfare in the context of what President Packer is describing is NOT the same as dealing with an emergency or doomsday scenario.

I knew someone would argue with, twist, and turn what a living prophet had to say on the subject of this thread, how sad. The original post does NOT mention "emergency or doomsday scenarios" (you and others turned the thread into such though), so posting Pres. Packer's quote was a very valid response to the original post. Besides, I wouldn't be so quick to say what 'contexts' Pres. Packer's prophetic words can and cannot be applied to - you do NOT speak for him (even if Vaughn Featherstone is your neighbor 8-| ).

Sorry to get your knickers in a twist there, Stella, but the original post was about President Monson calling for local leaders to gather up food storage. President Packer, who is a prophet, was talking about the Welfare Program from the handbook.

I didn't know...and I still don't read...the original post to mean that President Monson would suggest that food storage be gathered in a non-emergency situation. My bad. I just assumed that was what we were talking about. Obviously you took it to mean something different and maybe your perception is right.

Vision wrote: I don't see how someone can be spiritual with a lamp full of oil and not have food storage and other items needed. That does not add up to me. I see it in my calling every week, the slothful members of my ward have all the problems, and the diligent righteous members have no issues. The righteous ones that have lost jobs have quickly found new jobs because of the blessings that come from being righteous, and the others have struggled to find employment. The Lord blesses the righteous period.

Oooohhhh, that's a dangerous position that I think too many people stake. So, a person's inability in a tough job market to find employment after ten months stems from unrighteousness?

In some cases, MAYBE. In others, no.

I think this is one of the reasons why the Lord admonished us to forgive all men and to exercise righteous judgment. It is very hard because each situation is individual. In my present situation, where I have been unemployed for ten months, I feel the searing judgment of people with attitudes like this -- even though I haven't gone to the Bishop or receive a bit of assistance from anyone.

Knickers are all untwisted now, Ed; thanks. Only the first paragraph was from the welfare handbook, all the rest (and much more I didn't type out) was Pres. Packer's own words at General Conference, FWIW.

I know what you (and others) are saying, and I agree with most everything on this thread. My only point was that I don't think we should dismiss what Pres. Packer (or Pres. Romney or Pres. Faust, etc...) said by thinking it was meant for only a narrow application (such as things-aren't-so-bad-type welfare as opposed to disaster-type welfare - it's still welfare, yes? same principles would apply?) - we'd be in a right pickle if we read the scriptures that way, methinks.

As for sharing, I'm sure we all will, with those truly in need - and we'll be happy we're able to. My concern is - will we have anything left TO share? With the way food prices are going up, and the "value" of the dollar going down, I think more and more folks will be using their food storage for their groceries before the "real" yucky stuff even hits the fan... Many in our ward who have lost their jobs and have not found new ones are doing just that - and these aren't slackers - they are good, decent, temple-going, hard working members. Anyway, it's going to take a LOT of faith to get through these times...

Vision wrote:Momto5

Marion G Romney said this in the October 1981 Conference

“You must continue to bear in mind that the temporal and spiritual are blended. They are not separate. One cannot be carried on without the other, so long as we are here in mortality. …

From James E. Faust in 2006

"In the Savior’s parable of the ten virgins, each young woman had a lamp. Clearly, this parable has both a temporal and a spiritual application. Oil can be purchased at the market. But another kind of oil, spiritual oil that is not for sale, can be accumulated only by our daily good works."

And this scripture “And the idler shall not have place in the Church, except he repent and mend his ways.” (D&C 75:29.)

I don't need to say more than President Faust said in his quote.

That was my whole point. By gathering food storage,, can by can, (physical) we are being obedient (physical/spiritual) which puts oil in our lamps drop by drop. It's one thing we can do to be wise but not the only thing and certainly not the main thing. Some people on this forum make it sound like if the getting one's year supply of food is not complete than you are not a wise virgin and will not be "saved", but destroyed with the wicked. This is absolutely false. If that were true than one's temple worthiness and obedience to every other commandment would be for not. That's the false idea some people throw around on here. I'm not saying only a two month or even three month supply would be efficient esp. in the world today with people going years without a job (we are told to have a year supply for a reason), but we don't gather food storage and let it sit for ever until the end of the world comes all while getting food stamps and borrowing money from our Bishops and families for food. Our storage is there to be used in times of need which is different for each family. I have had to use my food supply time and time again. I feel it would be wrong to get a food order when I have my food supply so I use my food supply, that is what it is meant for. Then I work on building it back up. Having food storage is only one way to be self-reliant and self-reliance is a celestial (spiritual) principal. I fully agree with all your quotes. It is obedience to the principal that gives us the blessings. Food storage won't magically appear on our shelves. We have to do the work required to build it up and not wait for someone to give it to us. We can't sit around and do nothing and expect to reap the rewards.

I second what edzachary said in response to vision's statement : "The righteous ones that have lost jobs have quickly found new jobs because of the blessings that come from being righteous, and the others have struggled to find employment. The Lord blesses the righteous period."

Good people have trials too. There is an excellent thread on this forum in which the person who started the thread was assured that we are all going to be tried, as Joseph Smith said "You will have all kinds of troubles and trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried, even as Abraham and other men of God.' And said he, 'God will feel after you and he will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings. And if you cannot stand it, you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.'" (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 24, p. 197)."

He didn't say that we would only have trials if we are unrighteous. He said we all must be tried as Abraham was.

I think the difference you see, Vision between the two groups you describe is the manner in which they respond to their trials. The strong families are able to handle it in a way that minimizes the effects of the trial on other aspects of their lives.

I still wouldn't say that the ones with all of the problems aren't as righteous as the others though. Some of us here struggle because of important pieces of information about living well that are missing from our lives. We are learning as we go, what others brought with them to adulthood from watching their parents, or other family members.

Some of us are just born with certain weaknesses that make our lives look messy to those around us.

The two main dangers I see with this logic are the propensity to judge others, and the self recrimination that could come to the person who harbors such logic when they are thrust into such a situation.

We are all one heartbeat away from personal disaster.

We just don't know it until it happens.

Stella Solaris wrote:My only point was that I don't think we should dismiss what Pres. Packer (or Pres. Romney or Pres. Faust, etc...) said by thinking it was meant for only a narrow application (such as things-aren't-so-bad-type welfare as opposed to disaster-type welfare - it's still welfare, yes? same principles would apply?) - we'd be in a right pickle if we read the scriptures that way, methinks.

But is it welfare? What if I've done all I can, have been active and righteous and prepared every needful thing and...my house burns down and everything is lost. Is it welfare then?

And what if things take a turn for the worse. What if the dollar crashes and becomes worthless. Banks close, businesses can't trade, jobs become worthless. Is it "welfare" then?

I have some neighbors who are clearly unprepared. Some aren't even members of the Church and some who are have challenging circumstances that I wouldn't preclude them to "fill their lamps". I can't see not taking care of them in a time of that kind of upset.

edzachary wrote:

Stella Solaris wrote:My only point was that I don't think we should dismiss what Pres. Packer (or Pres. Romney or Pres. Faust, etc...) said by thinking it was meant for only a narrow application (such as things-aren't-so-bad-type welfare as opposed to disaster-type welfare - it's still welfare, yes? same principles would apply?) - we'd be in a right pickle if we read the scriptures that way, methinks.

But is it welfare? What if I've done all I can, have been active and righteous and prepared every needful thing and...my house burns down and everything is lost. Is it welfare then?

And what if things take a turn for the worse. What if the dollar crashes and becomes worthless. Banks close, businesses can't trade, jobs become worthless. Is it "welfare" then?

I have some neighbors who are clearly unprepared. Some aren't even members of the Church and some who are have challenging circumstances that I wouldn't preclude them to "fill their lamps". I can't see not taking care of them in a time of that kind of upset.

...which is why it will probably go down as a plague and everyone will be quarantined! Otherwise the righteous would shortly be wiped out by more selfish neighbors....

Mummy wrote:...which is why it will probably go down as a plague and everyone will be quarantined! Otherwise the righteous would shortly be wiped out by more selfish neighbors....

Of all the signs of the 2nd coming, the plagues are what I fear most for some reason. It adds another element to sharing that I find frightening.

Elder Ezra Taft Benson said: “Thanks be to God for a prophet, for this inspired [welfare] program, and for Saints who so managed … that they could provide for their own and still share with others. What a marvelous way to become a savior on Mount Zion!” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1973, 93; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, 82)

edzachary wrote:

Mummy wrote:...which is why it will probably go down as a plague and everyone will be quarantined! Otherwise the righteous would shortly be wiped out by more selfish neighbors....

Of all the signs of the 2nd coming, the plagues are what I fear most for some reason. It adds another element to sharing that I find frightening.

LOL...hadn't considering the sharing perspective from that viewpoint....

edzachary wrote:But is it welfare? What if I've done all I can, have been active and righteous and prepared every needful thing and...my house burns down and everything is lost. Is it welfare then? And what if things take a turn for the worse. What if the dollar crashes and becomes worthless. Banks close, businesses can't trade, jobs become worthless. Is it "welfare" then?

Why wouldn't it be? What else would it be called? Here's how the Church defines "welfare" from their ProvidentLiving.org website -

Basic Principles
As disciples of Jesus Christ, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strive to follow the Savior’s admonition to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, take in the stranger, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and those in prison (see Matthew 25:35–36).

The responsibility for each person’s spiritual and temporal well-being rests first upon himself, second upon his family, and third upon the Church.

When members and their families are doing all they can to provide for themselves and still cannot meet their basic needs, they may turn to their bishop for temporary assistance.

The bishop, as a local minister, is in the best position to determine the nature and quantity of help required to meet the individual’s or family’s specific needs.

Once a month, members of the Church go without food and drink for two consecutive meals and contribute a fast offering at least equal to the value of the two meals. Bishops then use the fast offerings to care for those in need.

To assist bishops in helping members become more self-reliant, the Church has established storehouses, production projects, thrift stores, employment centers, and family services offices in many locations. Church members volunteer their time, talents, and skills to do much of the work in these facilities.

The purpose of Church welfare assistance is to help people to help themselves. Recipients of these resources are given the opportunity to work, to the extent of their ability, for the assistance they receive.

The Church also sponsors humanitarian relief and development projects around the world that benefit those of other faiths. These projects include emergency relief assistance in times of disaster and programs that strengthen the self-reliance of individuals, families, and communities.
Hundreds of full-time volunteers with skills and experience in education, agriculture, social work, business, and medicine serve throughout the world as part of these humanitarian projects.
More information is available at http://www.providentliving.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

So how would any of the situations you propose not be considered welfare? Not trying to be snarky or anything - I just honestly don't know why it wouldn't be called welfare, or why the same principles wouldn't apply. Now, when we get much closer to the winding up scene - it's my personal belief that none of us will have any food, and any remnant left alive will, of necessity, be fed by the power of God, i.e. manna, etc.. (like the Israelites of old). But that's a subject for another thread...

edzachary wrote:Of all the signs of the 2nd coming, the plagues are what I fear most for some reason.

Ditto that!!! There's nothing much worse than watching one of your kids suffer through a serious illness.

Vision wrote: I am not bagging on him, because he just did not have the personality to say no. He was taken advantage of by people. He and the church were exploited by prideful members. Me and the other counselor tried to intervene, but he had the mantle and we could only do so much. I do know of another bishop in my ward who helped a family out with some cash for gas one night, he ended up behind them in the drive up window at McDonalds an hour later. Once he realized who was in front of them he got out of his car and went up and asked for the money back that he had just given them.

The Bishop (and Elders quorum president also) in this case was not a faithful steward and he was not taken advantage of by the members. He failed in his responsibility to appropriately assist those in proper need. It's his responsibility to only give assistance to those who really need it for the right things and reasons. The church welfare system is very often abused by both members and leaders who don't have a proper understanding of the principle behind it. They will both be held accountable.

If I had young children at home I wouldn't want to give their share away. Children are helpless and dependent on parents. I would want to retain enough for those children to last a year. I would let my wife decide what she wants to do beyond that, she is a spiritual giant. I am sure there will be soup lines, and we will be asked to contribute what we can. I would hopefully contribute to a soup line so I would feel okay about getting in the line myself later.

I keep thinking of the woman and child who were sitting down to their last meal, but fed the Prophet Elijah instead. They were richly rewarded for that act of faith.

"And she went and did as Elijah said. And she and he and her household ate for many days. The jar of flour was not spent, neither did the jug of oil become empty, according to the word of the LORD that he spoke by Elijah. The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke by Elijah. Elijah and Widow Zarephath from 1 Kings 17:8-16"

Stella Solaris wrote: So how would any of the situations you propose not be considered welfare? Not trying to be snarky or anything - I just honestly don't know why it wouldn't be called welfare, or why the same principles wouldn't apply. Now, when we get much closer to the winding up scene - it's my personal belief that none of us will have any food, and any remnant left alive will, of necessity, be fed by the power of God, i.e. manna, etc.. (like the Israelites of old). But that's a subject for another thread...

I suppose you're right, it being a matter of semantics. For some reason the words "charity never faileth" and becoming a Zion-like people just keeps rattling around in my head in this thread.

edzachary wrote:...the words "charity never faileth" and becoming a Zion-like people just keeps rattling around in my head in this thread.

Amen, brother! I couldn't agree more.