LDS Freedom Forum

Not a trick question, but a philosophical question I ahve been mulling. I know what I would DO (I think) but I am not sure it would be right. This would be a case where I would deifnitely be looking toward SLC for guidance. But thought I would toss it out for some discussion.

So let's say that the U.S. defaulted on our debt, and China invaded. What would our correct response be?

Of course, the initial response and kenn jerk reaction is we are justified in fighting defensive wars. But, on the other hand, we made a promise to pay, their people have lived a very poor standard of living for years providing goods for us - would they not have some just claim for some kind of compensation - up to and including claiming part of our land?

I'm not trying to be anti-American here, I hope those of you realize that I love this country (although I am not a big fan of most of the leaders, past and present.) And of course, if we were making efforts to restructure the debt or do something to make it right, in that case it is clear how we would have to respond to invasion. But again, my question is if the U.S. government simply reneged and told China (or other debt holders) to take a long walk off a short pier - of COURSE we would have the right to defend our lives, but what if China just claimed government lands, and invaded to take possession of those claims? What do you think our moral obligation would be? What would be the correct response?

I have thought about the prophesies about the "heathen Chines" invading our West coast and being stopped at the Rocky Mountains - is that going to be by force of arms, or divine intervention, or is there a third possibility that we negotiate and recognize their claims? Would that be betrayal do you think, or would that be just?

Look forward to hearing your thoughts. I realize the fact that I am even contemplating these ideas probably makes me either a coward or a traitor in some peoples' minds.

Because of my confusion on the issue, IF this scenario were to unfold I again would probably be looking to SLC for guidance. But for the sake of discussion I would like to hear opinions and justifications for those opinions.

Original_Intent wrote:Not a trick question, but a philosophical question I ahve been mulling. I know what I would DO (I think) but I am not sure it would be right. This would be a case where I would deifnitely be looking toward SLC for guidance. But thought I would toss it out for some discussion.

So let's say that the U.S. defaulted on our debt, and China invaded. What would our correct response be?

Of course, the initial response and kenn jerk reaction is we are justified in fighting defensive wars. But, on the other hand, we made a promise to pay, their people have lived a very poor standard of living for years providing goods for us - would they not have some just claim for some kind of compensation - up to and including claiming part of our land?

I'm not trying to be anti-American here, I hope those of you realize that I love this country (although I am not a big fan of most of the leaders, past and present.) And of course, if we were making efforts to restructure the debt or do something to make it right, in that case it is clear how we would have to respond to invasion. But again, my question is if the U.S. government simply reneged and told China (or other debt holders) to take a long walk off a short pier - of COURSE we would have the right to defend our lives, but what if China just claimed government lands, and invaded to take possession of those claims? What do you think our moral obligation would be? What would be the correct response?

I have thought about the prophesies about the "heathen Chines" invading our West coast and being stopped at the Rocky Mountains - is that going to be by force of arms, or divine intervention, or is there a third possibility that we negotiate and recognize their claims? Would that be betrayal do you think, or would that be just?

Look forward to hearing your thoughts. I realize the fact that I am even contemplating these ideas probably makes me either a coward or a traitor in some peoples' minds.

Because of my confusion on the issue, IF this scenario were to unfold I again would probably be looking to SLC for guidance. But for the sake of discussion I would like to hear opinions and justifications for those opinions.

If the communist invaded this country to "take" their lands it would not be done civilly or by "negotiation". You would be forced to defend your families virtue and lives or see them all raped and slaughtered by bloodthirsty hordes who don't care one whit about your principles of "fairness". Pure and simply without divine intervention it would be either fight or die. Thats the reality of things IMO.

Interesting question.

The truth of the matter is in that case, we probably owe them. It's pathetic and sad but we borrowed their money and some day they'll expect payment of the principal. I'm just giving an opinion but no one on the West Coast will oppose them and I really find it hard to believe that SLC will call us to physical battle. I realize I could be wrong as prophets in the BoM lead the people to battle.

Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

Mark,

I already said that if it was a matter of defending our lives and liberty, it is clear (I think) that we would be justified in defending ourselves.

What I am proposing is what if the Chinese laid claim to the public land "west of the Rockies" (or wherever) as a lien on the debt that they held, and the U.S. government declared war over it or fought it.

Would you believe in enlisting or sending your sons or daughters to enlist? Would you support a draft? Would you fight individually whether you were part of the actual military or not (i.e. geurilla). Would you protest the U.S going to war, supporting the Chinese claims? Would you feel those claims were legitimate, why or why not? I tried in my OP to clarify my question to avoid obvious answers.

durangout, sounds like at the least you are considering along the same lines as I am. Scriptures call debt servitude, and those who hold the debt are masters.

Please keep the responses coming.

OI, I guess we could stake claim on most of the world based on the foreign aid we have given them. It is an investment on their part. They were doing it not as a loan, but as a way to better their financial position. If they loose, they loose. The Chinese people should take it out on the people who made the choice to invest. Our Sovereignty would take a big hit.

I propose we give them the east coast not west coast. We would be way ahead.

durangout wrote:Interesting question.

The truth of the matter is in that case, we probably owe them. It's pathetic and sad but we borrowed their money and some day they'll expect payment of the principal. I'm just giving an opinion but no one on the West Coast will oppose them and I really find it hard to believe that SLC will call us to physical battle. I realize I could be wrong as prophets in the BoM lead the people to battle.

Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

We don't owe them squat! Their money was created out of nothing by central banks. If it weren't for the manipulation by central banks of currency (allowing them to peg) and the massive capital investment in China.....they would still be at the bottom of the 3rd world heap. They can thank the American taxpayer and consumer and ultimately the politicians for their dramatic rise in prosperity and power!

durangout wrote:Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

Hey Mark, better start learning Mandarin B-)

shadow wrote:

durangout wrote:Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

Hey Mark, better start learning Mandarin B-)

I'm pretty sure he does, as well as fluent Russian. He's actually a deep plant communist sleeper cell. @-)

JK Mark! :ymhug:

Original_Intent wrote:

shadow wrote:

durangout wrote:Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

Hey Mark, better start learning Mandarin B-)

I'm pretty sure he does, as well as fluent Russian. He's actually a deep plant communist sleeper cell. @-)

JK Mark! :ymhug:

Isn't he working in Wisconsin this week????

Wisconsin Assembly approves plan to curb unions

(Reuters) - The Wisconsin state Assembly on Friday passed a Republican plan to curb public sector union power over the fierce objections of protesters, setting the stage for a showdown with Senate Democrats who fled the state last week to prevent a vote in that chamber.

After two all-night debating sessions and an eleventh hour Democratic bid for a compromise, the Republican-dominated Assembly abruptly ended all debate early Friday morning and approved the bill by a vote of 51 to 17.

The outcome of the vote, which was taken so fast many Democratic lawmakers who were outside the chamber when it was called were unable to participate, was greeted by chants of "it's not over yet" and "we are here to stay" from more than a thousand protesters who stayed to watch in the capitol rotunda overnight.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators, from inside and outside the state, have converged on Madison in recent days to fight the proposal, which they fear could encourage similar measures in other states and cripple the American labor movement.

Passage of the measure was never in doubt. So as the news sunk in among the demonstrators, the initial confusion quickly gave way and they were singing a spirited version of "We Shall Overcome" within minutes.

Assembly Republicans took a private elevator to an exit sealed off from protesters and did not stop for reporters.

After the vote, the Democrats assembled on a balcony overlooking the rotunda that has been home to tens of thousands of demonstrators, waving at the protesters and telling them the measure's prospects in the state Senate are more uncertain.

The protesters shouted "thank you, thank you" and pumped their fists at the lawmakers, who returned the gestures.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... 0720110225" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mummy wrote:

durangout wrote:Interesting question.

The truth of the matter is in that case, we probably owe them. It's pathetic and sad but we borrowed their money and some day they'll expect payment of the principal. I'm just giving an opinion but no one on the West Coast will oppose them and I really find it hard to believe that SLC will call us to physical battle. I realize I could be wrong as prophets in the BoM lead the people to battle.

Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

We don't owe them squat! Their money was created out of nothing by central banks. If it weren't for the manipulation by central banks of currency (allowing them to peg) and the massive capital investment in China.....they would still be at the bottom of the 3rd world heap. They can thank the American taxpayer and consumer and ultimately the politicians for their dramatic rise in prosperity and power!

You're right but the Chineese won't care about that.

Original_Intent wrote:

shadow wrote:

durangout wrote:Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

Hey Mark, better start learning Mandarin B-)

I'm pretty sure he does, as well as fluent Russian. He's actually a deep plant communist sleeper cell. @-)

JK Mark! :ymhug:

Lu guo ni yao zhe ge fang zian, ni yao gen wo da jia. Ni yao sa wo xian. :ymcowboy:

durangout wrote:

Mummy wrote:

durangout wrote:Interesting question.

The truth of the matter is in that case, we probably owe them. It's pathetic and sad but we borrowed their money and some day they'll expect payment of the principal. I'm just giving an opinion but no one on the West Coast will oppose them and I really find it hard to believe that SLC will call us to physical battle. I realize I could be wrong as prophets in the BoM lead the people to battle.

Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

We don't owe them squat! Their money was created out of nothing by central banks. If it weren't for the manipulation by central banks of currency (allowing them to peg) and the massive capital investment in China.....they would still be at the bottom of the 3rd world heap. They can thank the American taxpayer and consumer and ultimately the politicians for their dramatic rise in prosperity and power!

You're right but the Chineese won't care about that.

True

Mark wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

shadow wrote: Hey Mark, better start learning Mandarin B-)

I'm pretty sure he does, as well as fluent Russian. He's actually a deep plant communist sleeper cell. @-)

JK Mark! :ymhug:

Lu guo ni yao zhe ge fang zian, ni yao gen wo da jia. Ni yao sa wo xian. :ymcowboy:

馬克是一個共產黨員愛衝浪怪胎

or

Марк коммуниста любящий урод по поиску

Mark wrote:
Lu guo ni yao zhe ge fang zian, ni yao gen wo da jia. Ni yao sa wo xian. :ymcowboy:

Yes, can I get that with spicy chicken and some chop-sticks to go?

shadow wrote:

Mark wrote:
Lu guo ni yao zhe ge fang zian, ni yao gen wo da jia. Ni yao sa wo xian. :ymcowboy:

Yes, can I get that with spicy chicken and some chop-sticks to go?

Тень любит ноги Марко пряный куриный

or

影子愛馬克的辣雞腿

We don't owe China anything. Those politicians who sold us into slavery are the ones who owe China! If China decides to 'take' a portion of America then there will be a fight. Lock and load people!!!

If China invades, no matter the reason, we must defend ourselves.

My answer is the same as to the question of:What if our President signed an (obviously unconstitutional) order to transfer ownership of all U.S. assets to Bob Villa for a "temporary" remodel. My name and future was never, isn't and will never be for sell to any representative. Their powers are limited and do not go so far as to enable them to sell us out to anyone. If there are any conditions upon our "loans" that call into question our sovereignty over our own soil etc... they are not within the powers granted by the Constitution and therefore defunct.

Assuming that the Constitution has been circumvented by it's own means, then I no longer would consider myself a citizen of that country and would retain the former one unto myself by their secession from it.

Therefore to quote Robert Service:"I'll fight — and you bet it’s no sham-fight;
It’s hell! — but I've been there before;
And it’s better than this by a damsite —
So me for the (Constitution) once more. "

kathyn wrote:If China invades, no matter the reason, we must defend ourselves.

Does the same hold true, then, for Iraq, Afghanistan, looking forward Iran and Libya (others?) What you are saying is under no circumstances does China have the right to invade (?) so does that malso mean that we have no right to invade another country under any circumstances?

I'm trying to establish if the same rules apply to us as you are proposing for China?

Mummy wrote:

durangout wrote:Interesting question.

The truth of the matter is in that case, we probably owe them. It's pathetic and sad but we borrowed their money and some day they'll expect payment of the principal. I'm just giving an opinion but no one on the West Coast will oppose them and I really find it hard to believe that SLC will call us to physical battle. I realize I could be wrong as prophets in the BoM lead the people to battle.

Wait as sec... what if we just offer them the West Coast right now to wipe away the debt. Maybe we'd be better off

We don't owe them squat! Their money was created out of nothing by central banks. If it weren't for the manipulation by central banks of currency (allowing them to peg) and the massive capital investment in China.....they would still be at the bottom of the 3rd world heap. They can thank the American taxpayer and consumer and ultimately the politicians for their dramatic rise in prosperity and power!

Well said.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:My answer is the same as to the question of:What if our President signed an (obviously unconstitutional) order to transfer ownership of all U.S. assets to Bob Villa for a "temporary" remodel. My name and future was never, isn't and will never be for sell to any representative. Their powers are limited and do not go so far as to enable them to sell us out to anyone. If there are any conditions upon our "loans" that call into question our sovereignty over our own soil etc... they are not within the powers granted by the Constitution and therefore defunct.

Assuming that the Constitution has been circumvented by it's own means, then I no longer would consider myself a citizen of that country and would retain the former one unto myself by their secession from it.

Therefore to quote Robert Service:"I'll fight — and you bet it’s no sham-fight;
It’s hell! — but I've been there before;
And it’s better than this by a damsite —
So me for the (Constitution) once more. "

Well said.

What if Chinese Intel reads ands uses blogs like this to aid in their decision making?

What if Chinese bloggers are having these same discussions only in reverse asking if they should invade us if we default?

Epistemology wrote:What if Chinese Intel reads ands uses blogs like this to aid in their decision making?

What if Chinese bloggers are having these same discussions only in reverse asking if they should invade us if we default?

Hence the reason I failed to really answer the question posted at the begining of the thread.

Hi Hu!

Removed

Rincon wrote:We could give California to China, debt and all.

I believe debts should be paid. However the debt we have to China was the result of liberals in government. They did it against my will all the way. I would say round up liberals and let the Chinese take them as slaves until they work the debt off.

I'd be willing to carve out Washington D.C. and ship it over to them.....everything else will be grounds for war.