LDS Freedom Forum

I just wanted to bring this up for discussion since a friend of mine mentioned it to me recently and I couldn't help but totally agree.

There are a LOT of men in my ward who hunt for sport who don't necessarily plan on using the meat from a kill since the motive for the hunt is the thrill associated with it and the mounting of its head on the wall in their living room as some symbol of their manhood. ) They try to out-do the others with the biggest kill or the elk with the most points so they can mount it on their wall as if it is a testament to how big a man they are or something. In my opinion, these men are going to have to answer for this on the other side. It's murdering animal life, plain and simple, and the Lord doesn't condone it at all. Now, if you plan to use the meat from the kill and there is an over-population of the animal, different story, but killing a big moose or elk just so you can mount it on your wall and pound your chest is murder and many LDS men think nothing of it. I'm curious to know what the rest of you all think in regards to this? It is my understanding that the church even has its own game preserve in Nevada where men pay specific sums of money to hunt on the property for sport. How can the church own such a 'business' and then give talks on the sanctity of life? Thoughts?

As a teenager I used to shoot birds with my BB gun just to see if I could hit them. I honestly feel bad about that now, but at the time it was definitely a "thrill of the hunt thing. I agree with you, it is wrong, but I don't know how serious it is.

I've always used any furry animal that I killed - other than the deer that totalled my Camaro a couple of decades ago - not much left of it or my car for that matter. I think that was the last time that girl from Levan went out with me too, as I was driving her home and I think it was a little too much excitement for her. OK, that and she told me that there were a lot of deer on that road about 5 minutes before the accident. But I digress...

I agree with you that needless killing of animals is something we will be held accountable for - probably also excessive meat eating without proper thanksgiving - guilty again...

I completely agree. And so does the Lord and his prophets:

And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. (Doctrine & Covenants 49:21)

“Now, I also would like to add some of my feelings concerning the unnecessary shedding of blood and destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been expressed here by the prophets. And not less with reference to the killing of innocent birds is the wildlife of our country that live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies to the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is a shame, in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend not only to the bird life but to the life of all animals” (President Spencer W. Kimball, Fundamental Principles to Ponder and Live, Ensign (CR), November 1978, p.43).

“We should by every means in our power impress upon the rising generation the value of life and how dreadful a sin it is to take life. The lives of animals even should be held far more sacred than they are. Young people should be taught to be very merciful to the brute creation and not to take life wantonly or for sport. The practice of hunting and killing game merely for sport should be frowned upon and not encouraged among us. God has created the fowls and the beasts for man’s convenience and comfort and for his consumption at proper times and under proper circumstances; but he does not justify men in wantonly killing those creatures which He has made and with which He has supplied the earth” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses and Writings of President George Q. Cannon, selected, arranged, and edited by Jerreld L. Newquist, p.24).

“I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men-and they still exist among us-who enjoy what is, to them, the “sport” of hunting birds and slaying them by the hundreds, and who will come in after a day’s sport, boasting of how many harmless birds they have had the skill to slaughter, and day after day, during the season when it is lawful for men to hunt and kill (the birds having had a season of protection and not apprehending danger) go out by scores or hundreds, and you may hear their guns early in the morning on the day of the opening, as if great armies had met in battle; and the terrible work of slaughtering the innocent birds goes on” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol 4, p.45).

"Many worship the hunt, the fishing trip, the vacation, the weekend picnics and outings. Others have as their idols the games of sport, baseball, football, the bullfight, or golf. These pursuits more often than not interfere with the worship of the Lord and with giving service to the building up of the kingdom of God. To the participants this emphasis may not seem serious, yet it indicates where their allegiance and loyalty are." (Pres. Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p 41)

(quotes from askgramps.org)

I hunt on a regular basis. I do eat what I kill. I do not know of anyone that I associate with that just is a trophy hunter. Everyone that I know uses the meat or donates it. I see nothing wrong with that.

The Church does offer hunting at some of its ranches, including one in UT along the WY border, Deseret Land and Livestock. Here is the link to the website http://www.dlandl.com/pages/RanchHistory/index.html Some of the largest Elk in UT and the country are in that area. That Eastern section along the WY border is some of the choicest land in UT. The church was very lucky to obtain that area.

JulesGP wrote:I see nothing wrong with it either if you are using what you kill.

Exactly. Hunting for sport = bad. Hunting for food = good

Scarecrow wrote:

“I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men-and they still exist among us-who enjoy what is, to them, the “sport” of hunting birds and slaying them by the hundreds, and who will come in after a day’s sport, boasting of how many harmless birds they have had the skill to slaughter, and day after day, during the season when it is lawful for men to hunt and kill (the birds having had a season of protection and not apprehending danger) go out by scores or hundreds, and you may hear their guns early in the morning on the day of the opening, as if great armies had met in battle; and the terrible work of slaughtering the innocent birds goes on” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol 4, p.45).

Expanding on this quote, Nibley in "Approaching Zion", pg. 19:

Nibley wrote:When we try to mix Zion and Babylon, Babylon has already won the game. It is amazing that any teaching so fundamental and so clear-cut could be so effectively silenced today among people professing to preach and to practice the restored gospel. Here is an example from President Joseph F. Smith of what I mean:

Smith wrote:...
I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong, and I have been surprised at prominent men whom I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? "Just for the fun of it." (Gospel Doctrine, vol. 1: A Course of Study for Melchizedek Priesthood Quorums, 1971-1972, 371-372; selections from the sermons and writings of Joseph F. Smith)

Here is a practice designated by the President and Prophet of the Church as abominable, the ancient sport of the masters of Babylon -- the descendants of Cain, of Ham, of Nimrod, all of whom were mighty hunters. And yet there are men today engaging in such practices who at the same time speak piously of building up Zion.

I can't even kill for food :ymblushing: I have to get someone else to kill my chickens ) I think the only way I'd be able to kill a deer is if I was actually starving.

JulesGP.............the reference to "We don't Race on Elvis's Birthday" is from an Indy Car Race Team that had this on all of their pit boxes (tool boxes that roll from the trucks pit area to the on track pit area). This particular team was around in the mid 90's. Basically it was to give some humorous recognition to Elvis. B-) Besides....don't you all know he was tracked out by the missionaries and was taking the discussions? And.... reading the Book of Mormon?

The Church had a hunting preserve near Utah Lake. My Dad retired from the Utah Fish and Game, or DWR. One of his co-workers served a mission as the preserve manager for many years. I remember seeing that mission on a Senior mission list at one time. President Monson was a frequent hunter on the Churches Utah Lake game preserve for the hunting of pheasants.

In "To The Rescue: The Biography of Thomas S. Monson" there are about 10 references to his enjoyment of duck hunting. Even when he was an apostle he was taking his sons duck hunting.

I would consider myself a hypocrite if I was unwilling to kill and yet eat meat. Not that I must personally kill everything I eat, but that I must be willing to fulfill the act or fore go the eating of flesh. I cannot ask someone else to do the very thing I find objectionable myself.

I will not stick up for hunters in general. Most deer meat in Utah is wasted or made entirely into sausage and jerky (I love jerky). Most hunters celebrate in a way I cannot understand upon delivering the fatal blow. Most hunters are concerned with antler size and not for proper management purposes (which Adam was charged with as are we). Most hunters spend small fortunes to get "free" meat.

I take it as a serious and solemn duty. I am deathly afraid that through my own negligence or sin, I may lose worthiness to see the enmity between man and beast cease.

The first deer I shot I swore would be the last as it hardly seemed worth it. After the moment passed and I had time to reflect and weigh things carefully in the balance I saw it for what it is, regret that a life must be shed in order to live a proper life in a fallen world. It is the fallen world and barbarism of the same that I regret the most. But then I would rather put a deer down humanely and feed my family than see our local wolf pack come through and kill it.

I love animals. I doubt I will soon meet the person that loves them as I. My time in the woods tracking deer (let alone other species) does not have a "season".

The guys I really despise are the ones that use poison bait and snares to kill indiscriminately to "protect" their livestock. I'm related to one of those. I will never forget his laughter telling me about walking in a circle around the bait ever widening and seeing all the masses of wildlife killed by his apparently temple worthy acts.

I have never been hunting, nor do I recall even cleaning a fish. I have been happy about that but now a part of me wonders if I need to do it at least a few times just so that I can do it if necessary. Nephi knew how to hunt.

I was thinking of probing my ward for someone willing to let me tag along. However, if they showed too much bloodlust I think I'd be pretty upset. Plus, if I was to go out like that, I'd wish to clean the animal as part of my education? Do hunters normally do that?

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:I would consider myself a hypocrite if I was unwilling to kill and yet eat meat. Not that I must personally kill everything I eat, but that I must be willing to fulfill the act or fore go the eating of flesh. I cannot ask someone else to do the very thing I find objectionable myself.

I will not stick up for hunters in general. Most deer meat in Utah is wasted or made entirely into sausage and jerky (I love jerky). Most hunters celebrate in a way I cannot understand upon delivering the fatal blow. Most hunters are concerned with antler size and not for proper management purposes (which Adam was charged with as are we). Most hunters spend small fortunes to get "free" meat.

I take it as a serious and solemn duty. I am deathly afraid that through my own negligence or sin, I may lose worthiness to see the enmity between man and beast cease.

The first deer I shot I swore would be the last as it hardly seemed worth it. After the moment passed and I had time to reflect and weigh things carefully in the balance I saw it for what it is, regret that a life must be shed in order to live a proper life in a fallen world. It is the fallen world and barbarism of the same that I regret the most. But then I would rather put a deer down humanely and feed my family than see our local wolf pack come through and kill it.

I love animals. I doubt I will soon meet the person that loves them as I. My time in the woods tracking deer (let alone other species) does not have a "season".

The guys I really despise are the ones that use poison bait and snares to kill indiscriminately to "protect" their livestock. I'm related to one of those. I will never forget his laughter telling me about walking in a circle around the bait ever widening and seeing all the masses of wildlife killed by his apparently temple worthy acts.

I think you have summed up the ideal. I continually point out to my family that the meat we are eating was a living thing that in all honesty problably had a pretty bad existence (factory farms) and that we need to be grateful for it. I also agree with what you said, a person should be willing to do the deed himself or should not eat meat at all. I definitely do not have the love of woldlife that you do, but I at least do not celebrate in the killing of another living thing. The things I used to do I have sincerely repented of and still have regret about.

I will admit I still enjoy fishing. I do try to finish them off as quickly and humanely as I can.

I have softened up enough that I don;t think I could raise an animal and butcher it myself. I'd have to trade it to someone else and then slaughter the new animal before I got attached. Even though I knew he was going to do the same with my animal, I don;t know if that qualifies as cowardice or what, but I do get attached to my animals.

Amyway I really enjoyed your post SM&P, because I really feel like it is the near perfect amount of respect, responsibility, etc. Very praiseworthy attitude. :ymcowboy:

I don't think you have to actually kill an animal to have respect for it's sacrifice for you. For what it's worth I have killed a chicken a chicken before (Mom made me when I was 14) it was a horrible experience and I never want to ever do it again; but I think I'd be able to if I absolutely had to.
It doesn't make sense but I have no problem cleaning fish. Eating them is another story :ymsick:

Hunting, fishing for sport is practice for hunting/fishing for survival. Don't accomplish one, you likely will not accomplish the other. We have a rule in our family, if we kill it we eat it! And whats the difference how wild game is prepared, in Alaska a few years back we caught and ate raw salmon, it was absolutely fantastic dipped into a Japanese sauce that really brought out the flavor. One member of our party refused the delicacy, we didn't mind, more for the rest of us!

Kill a chicken correctly they don't feel a thing! But thats if you do it right, and only practice killing chickens can assure that. Or, you can let your family go hungry---slowly killing them! You choose!

Here's how to properly kill a chicken, hold the chicken by the legs, pull the wingtips back and hold them against the legs with your off hand. put the chicken over the end of an upright log about a foot high. The chicken will stretch its neck out for you, chop it off with a sharp hatchet or a machete. I prefer the hatchet though I've used both!

The chicken will wiggle in your hands, just hold it until it stops or throw it on the ground and let it flop around. Its not feeling a thing, its brain has been disconnected from its body, and the brain interprets the pain. Dip the chicken in scalding water for about 6 seconds, pull it out and starting with the legs , push the feathers off the legs, always push against the grain, don't pick the chicken. Just push the feathers off keeping a handful in your hand to push with. A little bit of practice and you can kill, defeather and gut a chicken in just a few minutes. I like to cut off the wing tips and the part that went over the fence last, feathers there are harder to get out, so I just cut the bone at the joint using a pair of sidecuts taking the hard to get feathers with them. If your simply skinning the chicken your losing a lot of fat, food value just when you'll be needing it the most.

You obtain the most food value by stewing a chicken, your using the flesh, bones, gizzard, and heart! The gizzard must be carefully cut open and the gravel sack inside peeled off, the gizzard is my favorite part of the chicken.

Bob

I want to go deer or elk hunting this year for the first time. Why? For the experience, so I know how to if I ever need to.

Plenty of apostles and prophets have gone on hunts. Elder Oaks probably is the most recent I can remember mentioning where if he didn't listen to the holy ghost he would have fallen off a cliff during the dark hours of a deer hunt. This was after he shot the animal, I guess the holy ghost stayed with him despite his barbaric actions of killing a poor helpless deer.

Oh and I bet a man of his significant wealth didn't 'need' to kill the poor deer.

C'mon now. This is extremism. None of us are in a position to judge someone merely based on their desire to hunt deer and hang them on the wall. Heck it doesn't make much sense to me. That is exactly why I can't judge them, I have no idea whats going on in their mind.

JulesGP wrote:Do people hunt ducks or pheasants to eat?

Yes absolutely!!! I love pheasant meat.

Having said that I haven't hunted for many years. I was an avid hunter. I got married and had kids and haven't been able to justify the expense vs. reward. Last deer I killed with a rifle I shot from just about 20 yards away. I left that experience to go home and buy a bow and arrows. I didn't feel that I had given that deer a sporting chance.

I also guided ONE year. I found the experience very disappointing. I had a great love of the outdoors and thought I would give others the opportunity. I was deeply disappointed by the behavior exhibited by many clients. I wouldn't take anyone with me paid or otherwise unless I had a good idea of their ideals.

I too have had a conversion over to the appreciation for the value of life. I pray in gratitude for the meat I eat. Even the stuff I buy in the store. D & C 89 clearly states that meat is good for man if eaten sparingly. So no it is not wrong, but getting the biggest set of horns... That is lust/envy if you ask me. That is the sin I see in it.

Smallfarm,

I think I may have said something offensive to you. If you cannot kill something due to personal squeamishness or softheartedness, I don;t think you are a hypocrite for eating meat. But I do think it is important that you respect and acknowledge what is being done to provide you food (i.e. if you eat it, you accept responsibility for the slaughter.

Original_Intent wrote:Smallfarm,

I think I may have said something offensive to you. If you cannot kill something due to personal squeamishness or softheartedness, I don;t think you are a hypocrite for eating meat. But I do think it is important that you respect and acknowledge what is being done to provide you food (i.e. if you eat it, you accept responsibility for the slaughter.

No I wasn't offended. :ymhug: I just wanted to make my position more clear.

I personally would like to eat less meat to not waste so much animal life. Sure, I hire someone else to do my killing for me, but it is me who caused the killing. Plus, they raise and kill the animals in a way I would never dream of. Bob's way is ideal I think. Raise them in your yard with a pleasant life then kill them quick for your family's need, and because you have done it you can be more thankful for the sacrifice of the animal for man's benefit.

I don't like using the Apostle's example to decide if something is right. I suppose in some cases you can get some insight, but sometimes people use it as a justification for things. For example, someone told me they saw on of the apostles racing down the highway. So now it is okay to speed? It's not that big of a deal, but I probably still shouldn't speed to be safe. If we are looking for truth and wisdom, I think we should listen to the principles taught by those prophets quoted here. Just my opinion. I have bigger fish to fry anyway. #-o

Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

Moss Man wrote:Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

ME! Only if there were none available------

Bob

Moss Man wrote:Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

Once upon a time....for just a short time.....and not the biblical interpretation of a time.

An awesome short term solution to many health problems though!

Perhaps of interest here:
notwithstanding living on raw meat in the wilderness Nephi and crew did not suffer and the women didn't dry up etc...: Here's why:

Fresh raw meat contains very small quantities of vitamin C. Vilhjalmur Stefansson, another polar explorer who ate like the eskimos, was never troubled by scurvy. When two of his team became sick with scurvy, he discovered they had been secretly eating a cache of Western foods like biscuits. He cured them on an all meat diet. Stefansson was the original carnivore – after his expeditions in the arctic, he became convinced it was entirely possible to live on a diet of nothing but meat, and remain in excellent health, and in fact negate many of our common health problems like headaches and aches and pains (sound familiar?). Stefansson – whose diet included such delicacies as raw calves’ brains and other organ meats, checked himself into the Bellevue hospital for a year to be observed in order to prove an all meat diet to the world. He succeeded, and spent the rest of his life eating a diet of meat. In his old age, he married a younger woman who tempted him with sweet desserts. He gave in to her persuasions, and suffered a stroke. Having had this setback in health, he went back to his all meat diet and lived for over another decade, into his eighties.

Meat contains virtually insignificant amounts of vitamin C, yet arctic explorers have long known its ability to prevent scurvy. The average sailor’s diet, by contrast, consisted largely of carbohydrate in the form of biscuits, and little protein – weevils not withstanding – as well as significant amounts of alcohol, all factors known to increase the risk of developing scurvy.

Despite the fact that fresh meat was well-known as a practical antiscorbutic among civilian whalers and explorers in the Arctic, at the time of Scott’s mission to the antarctic, the prevailing medical theory was that scurvy was caused by “tainted” canned food, and it wasn’t until 1932 that the connection between vitamin C and scurvy was established.

http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/ ... ts-scurvy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course only wild raw meat from a healthy source should be consumed and neurological tissues avoided unless you like prion diseases like mad cow and chronic wasting.

And for what it's worth fish and birds are a lower order animalian life forms. Heck they weren't even created on the same day as mammals. I believe that they lack the capacity to "feel" pain as we do. They simply have a physical response to the stimuli (even after they are dead) that enables them to survive on earth. Study it out in your mind and in prayer and I bet you'll reach the same conclusion. That should explain to those who have stated cleaning fish is different, why it is different.

Quiet Cricket wrote:I don't like using the Apostle's example to decide if something is right.

Good point we should be looking to the savior for His example. He ate fruits, nuts berries grain and fish. If you look at the Word of Wisdom by word, I have interpreted this verse to mean fish is ordained of God to be a staple of life.

Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

Notice how it excludes fish from those verses. Also again leaning to the Savior, He mingled with fisherman and probably ate fish more than once a day. And if you look at the anatomy of most fish, it is basically like a swimming meatscicle. ) Just a few cuts and you have a deboned, skinned, healthy meal.

So in conclusion. If we look to the ultimate example, I don't think there is mention of Him ever eating "meat". And at least Heber J. Grant ate "meat" only on rare occasions. I still think going hunting once a year for a deer as long as you are eating the meat isn't the worse offense in life. I do agree with COL Flagg that if you are wasting the meat and only killing for pleasure there is probably going to be some sadness in this next life about it. But I think if you humbly kill that animal and give thanks and strive to live the word of wisdom there is no harm in it.