LDS Freedom Forum

Moss Man wrote:Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

Interesting thread...I have gone on and off vegetarianism / veganism for the past couple of years. The two hardest parts to sticking to it are first, during most of this time I have either been pregnant or breast-feeding and I have a hard time feeling like I am getting all the nutrients I need without animal products, although I know it can be done. I just need to adjust my palate and I don't like adjusting my palate when there are so few foods that seem appealing to me. It's just a hard time of life to make such a transition. The second deterrent to me is how social eating is and how much of a social pariah you really can become when you don't eat animal products. No one wants to invite you to dinner because they don't know what to cook. People around me are very respectful but it's hard for them to relate and they just feel like they can't accommodate the differences. That can get old. That being said, I would like to be mostly vegetarian and I try to eat very little meat.

As far as the thread goes, I believe it's all in the mind of the one doing the hunting. If there is blood lust behind the actions I would say it's wrong. Our bishop is an avid hunter. He just got back from an African safari a few months ago and is anxiously awaiting all his trophies to arrive to add to his already-crowded-with-animal-heads "man room". I think our bishop is a good person, but I am not a huge fan of hearing him get all excited about the blood and killing on his latest hunting video. However, how can I judge him? I don't know what goes through his mind as he makes his kill. I certainly am glad to have him around in case all the junk hits the fan. He has survival and defense skills that are extremely valuable.

I believe your hunting should be somewhat proportionate to the amount of meat you would eat, even if you donate the meat rather than eat it yourself. If we should be eating meat sparingly, whatever that means to you, then those interested in hunting should probably be hunting sparingly as well. Just a personal opinion, but this coming from someone who has a hard time even killing a bug.

Moss Man wrote:Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

I do, and consequently my husband reluctantly does. I personally feel a lot better when I'm not eating animal products, and even have more energy. I've also had far healthier pregnancies since my lifestyle has changed.

Personally I believe that when the word of wisdom refers to using meat "sparingly and in times of winter or famine" that we don't really experience "winter" or "famine" the way people would have when that was written. We have access to fresh plant products all year round, as such I don't feel it necessary to eat meat. Not saying I'm so firm in this that I condemn anyone else......not at all. Living this lifestyle was not a stretch for me as I really don't enjoy eating meat anyway.

Here's an interesting take from AskGramps.com who says Sec 89 speaks clearly that it is wrong to kill wild animals unless starving. What think you?:

And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need. (Doctrine & Covenants 49:21)
This scripture should be sufficient as the word of the Lord, indicating that hunting as a sport is frowned upon by Deity. However, as recorded in the same section of the Doctrine & Covenants, we read that animals are made for the use of man,
And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance (Doctrine & Covenants 49:18-19).
But please note that this scripture applies to the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air,– in other words, domesticated animals and birds, not to wild animals, and they–the domesticated animals–are to be used for food and clothing. The proscription against killing wild animals even for food is clearly stated in Doctrine & Covenants 89—

I coudn't disagree more with the ask gramps interpretation.

katers wrote:

Moss Man wrote:Does anyone on this forum abstain from eating meat?

I do, and consequently my husband reluctantly does. I personally feel a lot better when I'm not eating animal products, and even have more energy. I've also had far healthier pregnancies since my lifestyle has changed.

Personally I believe that when the word of wisdom refers to using meat "sparingly and in times of winter or famine" that we don't really experience "winter" or "famine" the way people would have when that was written. We have access to fresh plant products all year round, as such I don't feel it necessary to eat meat. Not saying I'm so firm in this that I condemn anyone else......not at all. Living this lifestyle was not a stretch for me as I really don't enjoy eating meat anyway.

I also abstain from eating meat. I feel better, physically, not eating it and I've also never really cared for it a whole lot. I have sat through discussions in church about this issue and heard condeming comments about this choice. I don't try to push vegetarianism on anyone else, I am the only person in our household that doesn't it eat. I also don't go make it known that this is how I eat, so only people who are closer to me know that this is the way I eat. To me it's a personal choice and I don't condem anyone for choosing to eat meat and I don't feel like anyone should condem me for choosing to not eat it. I've not had the stomach flu in about 10 yrs. I think probably because from what I've read a lot of 'flu' is caused from meat sitting in the digestive system that acts as a breeding ground. Before I could count on stomach flu about once a year on average.

chicafoom, hunting does not always equal killing.

Here's a man that has given me a lot to think about regarding the eating of meat:
http://www.salagram.net/Vege-Mormonism.html

It's a hard thing... Figuring out what a man's outward persona should be. But I agree with the spirit of your statement.

Vision wrote:chicafoom, hunting does not always equal killing.

Good point. I don't see any problem with people going around look at wildlife. I guess I would say hunting and killing should be more proportionate to the amount of meat one expects to eat. But, like I said, I try not to judge them. I know and love lots of people who hunt and kill animals, and much of it is for sport more than anything else. However, I am not perfect and I am sure they can find things in my life they would find objectionable as well.

Moss Man wrote:Here's a man that has given me a lot to think about regarding the eating of meat:
http://www.salagram.net/Vege-Mormonism.html

Thanks for this link, Moss Man. It was a good reminder about why I have tried to transition away from meat in the past and has made me rethink my choices to be lax about it lately.

katmr wrote: I also don't go make it known that this is how I eat, so only people who are closer to me know that this is the way I eat.

This seems like the ideal to me. I am curious how you accomplish this in social settings. I find it difficult to avoid it when invited to someone's house or going to pretty much any church function. I don't feel a need to evangelize my choices, unless someone seems particularly interested, but whenever I have abstained from any amount of animal products it seems a hard subject to avoid.

Removed

Dudes, I get a huge thrill from blowing over a big buck. I love the trophy. I don't worship the animal afterward all Native American style, ya know? I just plug the thing, pray it doesn't run too far, and start the stabfest with a huge ol' grin on my face. It must be bread into me or something. I enjoy every second of it.

But I do throw the fishies back.

Rincon wrote:In the final moments of his General Conference address in April of 1978, I remember Spencer W. Kimball saying "Don't kill the birds" A secretary in the Church Office Building later told me they received a huge pile of protest mail because of it.

IIRC, it was "Don't kill the little birds" - I don;t think he was talking about geese, ducks, chickens, pheasant, etc. He was talking about birds that are just shot for the sake of shooting something, like robins, sparrows, etc. at least that was my impression.

Nothing wrong with taking a little pride in your work and anyone who has actually been hunting knows how much work it really is.

I have "trophies" hanging in my garage...better take away my temple recommend quick! Some of you make me laugh.

Quail, pigeons, robins, blackbirds, especially redwing blackbirds, starlings, European collard doves, meadow larks, are all very edible and taste quite good. And all are easily brought down with a pellet gun, even a BB gun if thats all you have.

Birds and animals were placed on this earth for the benifit of mankind, and that benifit is not limited to just looking at them.

Be squimish if you wish, let your children go hungry if you wish, but be man or woman enough, prepared, to face the consequences of staring into the eyes of hungry children your responsible for!

Bob

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I heard the President Monson was an avid duck hunter at the time that President Kimball said not to kill the little birds. He asked President Kimball if he should give up duck hunting and President Kimball told him that he didn't have to. If I recall correctly, he said that wasn't what he meant.

Sometimes rabbits can over populate themselves and become a plague (like locusts). I have heard of it being so bad in Idaho that the farmers would get online with clubs and walk through fields and club them. If they didn't, they would have no crops. While on my mission, while sitting in a barber shop, I read an article about a plague of rabbits in Australia that were demolishing crops. It only took a handfull of rabbits to wipe out an acre. I don't remember the exact number, though it didn't seem like much. I know my granddad, who was a farmer, had trouble with magpies stealing all his fruit. The birds wipe out the cherries in my Mom's tree before they can be harvested. Animals do need to be controlled for us to survive.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat. And surely blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

Trophy Hunting is ugly.

Joseph Smith wrote:

We crossed the Embarras river and encamped on a small branch of the same about one mile west. In pitching my tent we found three massasaguas, or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, "Let them alone--don't hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose his venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the suckling child can play with the serpent in safety." The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird or an animal of any kind during my journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger.

I had frequently spoken on this subject, when on a certain occasion I came up to the brethren who were watching a squirrel on a tree, and to prove them and to know if they would heed my counsel, I took one of their guns, shot the squirrel and passed on, leaving the squirrel on the ground. Brother Orson Hyde, who was just behind, picked up the squirrel, and said, "We will cook this that nothing may be lost." I perceived that the brethren understood what I did it for, and in their practice gave more heed to my precept than to my example which was right.3

President Joseph F. Smith many years ago, gave to the youth of the Church this excellent counsel:

I have just a few words to say in addition to those that have already been said, in relation to shedding blood and to the destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been spoken, and not less with reference to the killing of our innocent birds, natives of our country, who live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies of the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is abominable in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend, not only to the bird life, but to life of all animals. When I visited, a few years ago, the Yellowstone National Park, and saw in the streams and the beautiful lakes, birds swimming quite fearless of man, allowing passers-by to approach them as closely almost as tame birds, and apprehending no fear of them, and when I saw droves of beautiful deer herding along the side of the road, as fearless of the presence of men as any domestic animal, it filled my heart with a degree of peace and joy that seemed to be almost a foretaste of that period hoped for when there shall be none to hunt and none to molest in all the land especially among all the inhabitants of Zion. These same birds, if they were to visit other regions inhabited by man, would, on account of their tameness, doubtless become more easily a prey to the gunner. The same may be said of those beautiful creatures--the deer and antelope. If they should wander out of the park, beyond the protection which is established there for these animals, they would become, of course, an easy prey to those who were seeking their lives. I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men--and they still exist among us--who enjoy what is, to them, the "sport" of hunting birds and slaying them by the hundreds, and who will come in after a day's sport, boasting of how many harmless birds they have had the skill to slaughter, and day after day, during the season when it is lawful for men to hunt and kill (the birds having had a season of protection and not apprehending danger) go out by scores or hundreds, and you may hear their guns early in the morning on the day of the opening, as if great armies had met in battle; and the terrible work of slaughtering the innocent birds goes on.

I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he needs them for food, and then he should not kill innocent little birds that are not intended for food for man. I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong. I have been surprised at prominent men whom I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? "Just the fun of it!" Not that they are hungry and need the flesh of their prey, but just because they love to shoot and to destroy life. I am a firm believer, with reference to these things, in the simple words of one of the poets:

"Take not way the life you cannot give,
For all things have an equal right to live."4

And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will answer; and while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.5

I would like to be found worthy to dwell in Zion. I know what's right and that is and will be my course. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

bobhenstra wrote:Dip the chicken in scalding water for about 6 seconds, pull it out and starting with the legs , push the feathers off the legs, always push against the grain, don't pick the chicken. Just push the feathers off keeping a handful in your hand to push with. A little bit of practice and you can kill, defeather and gut a chicken in just a few minutes. I like to cut off the wing tips and the part that went over the fence last, feathers there are harder to get out, so I just cut the bone at the joint using a pair of sidecuts taking the hard to get feathers with them. If your simply skinning the chicken your losing a lot of fat, food value just when you'll be needing it the most.

You obtain the most food value by stewing a chicken, your using the flesh, bones, gizzard, and heart! The gizzard must be carefully cut open and the gravel sack inside peeled off, the gizzard is my favorite part of the chicken.

Bob

I wish you could show me how you "defeather" a chicken so fast! I cannot get the hang of it and have always given up and skinned our chickens. It's harder than it looks! My husband always does the killing, because I just can't do it. I always do the gutting because he can't stand that part. Neither one of us can do the feathers... which is why my husband is going to eventually get around to making the whizbang plucker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-pbRxIlpuw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think it is horrible..... to use your own personal likes and dislikes to judge others!
I hunt, fish and eat lots, and lots, and lots of meat.
No PC quilt here, thank you very much.
Just exercising part of my dominion.

Men hunt animals because the animals have already done all of the work for them. The animals have already eaten the gathered nuts, seeds, grass and berries that men are too lazy to gather. Men steal the animals' work from them by taking their lives.

I think it's interesting that meat-eaters take offense when their lifestyle is questioned but what's offensive is that the meat-eaters "dominion", or authority, is exercised in dedicating vast quantities of corn, soy, GMOs, hormones, etc. to be forced on animals that are born into captivity, live in cruelty and die in agonizing fear. Imagine being pregnant and having your baby stolen, then getting pregnant again just to have your baby stolen. Your babies are taken off to a small cell where they become veal.

How's that for PC!

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But the blood of all flesh which I have given you for meat, shall be shed upon the ground, which taketh life thereof, and the blood ye shall not eat. And surely blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.

Trophy Hunting is ugly.

Joseph Smith wrote:

We crossed the Embarras river and encamped on a small branch of the same about one mile west. In pitching my tent we found three massasaguas, or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, "Let them alone--don't hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose his venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the suckling child can play with the serpent in safety." The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird or an animal of any kind during my journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger.

I had frequently spoken on this subject, when on a certain occasion I came up to the brethren who were watching a squirrel on a tree, and to prove them and to know if they would heed my counsel, I took one of their guns, shot the squirrel and passed on, leaving the squirrel on the ground. Brother Orson Hyde, who was just behind, picked up the squirrel, and said, "We will cook this that nothing may be lost." I perceived that the brethren understood what I did it for, and in their practice gave more heed to my precept than to my example which was right.3

President Joseph F. Smith many years ago, gave to the youth of the Church this excellent counsel:

I have just a few words to say in addition to those that have already been said, in relation to shedding blood and to the destruction of life. I think that every soul should be impressed by the sentiments that have been spoken, and not less with reference to the killing of our innocent birds, natives of our country, who live upon the vermin that are indeed enemies of the farmer and to mankind. It is not only wicked to destroy them, it is abominable in my opinion. I think that this principle should extend, not only to the bird life, but to life of all animals. When I visited, a few years ago, the Yellowstone National Park, and saw in the streams and the beautiful lakes, birds swimming quite fearless of man, allowing passers-by to approach them as closely almost as tame birds, and apprehending no fear of them, and when I saw droves of beautiful deer herding along the side of the road, as fearless of the presence of men as any domestic animal, it filled my heart with a degree of peace and joy that seemed to be almost a foretaste of that period hoped for when there shall be none to hunt and none to molest in all the land especially among all the inhabitants of Zion. These same birds, if they were to visit other regions inhabited by man, would, on account of their tameness, doubtless become more easily a prey to the gunner. The same may be said of those beautiful creatures--the deer and antelope. If they should wander out of the park, beyond the protection which is established there for these animals, they would become, of course, an easy prey to those who were seeking their lives. I never could see why a man should be imbued with a blood-thirsty desire to kill and destroy animal life. I have known men--and they still exist among us--who enjoy what is, to them, the "sport" of hunting birds and slaying them by the hundreds, and who will come in after a day's sport, boasting of how many harmless birds they have had the skill to slaughter, and day after day, during the season when it is lawful for men to hunt and kill (the birds having had a season of protection and not apprehending danger) go out by scores or hundreds, and you may hear their guns early in the morning on the day of the opening, as if great armies had met in battle; and the terrible work of slaughtering the innocent birds goes on.

I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he needs them for food, and then he should not kill innocent little birds that are not intended for food for man. I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong. I have been surprised at prominent men whom I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood. They go off hunting deer, antelope, elk, anything they can find, and what for? "Just the fun of it!" Not that they are hungry and need the flesh of their prey, but just because they love to shoot and to destroy life. I am a firm believer, with reference to these things, in the simple words of one of the poets:

"Take not way the life you cannot give,
For all things have an equal right to live."4

And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will answer; and while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.5

I would like to be found worthy to dwell in Zion. I know what's right and that is and will be my course. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

I think that sums it up quite nicely! Amen!

ChelC wrote:

bobhenstra wrote:Dip the chicken in scalding water for about 6 seconds, pull it out and starting with the legs , push the feathers off the legs, always push against the grain, don't pick the chicken. Just push the feathers off keeping a handful in your hand to push with. A little bit of practice and you can kill, defeather and gut a chicken in just a few minutes. I like to cut off the wing tips and the part that went over the fence last, feathers there are harder to get out, so I just cut the bone at the joint using a pair of sidecuts taking the hard to get feathers with them. If your simply skinning the chicken your losing a lot of fat, food value just when you'll be needing it the most.

You obtain the most food value by stewing a chicken, your using the flesh, bones, gizzard, and heart! The gizzard must be carefully cut open and the gravel sack inside peeled off, the gizzard is my favorite part of the chicken.

Bob

I wish you could show me how you "defeather" a chicken so fast! I cannot get the hang of it and have always given up and skinned our chickens. It's harder than it looks! My husband always does the killing, because I just can't do it. I always do the gutting because he can't stand that part. Neither one of us can do the feathers... which is why my husband is going to eventually get around to making the whizbang plucker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-pbRxIlpuw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sis, after you scald the chicken, you just push the feathers off, don't pick them off. Start with a leg and wrap your hand around the leg and "push" down, properly scalder the feathers will just slide off. Keeping the feathers in your hand you push against the grain over the bird's body. Try it, its easy, practice on a few birds, you won't be skinning them for long. There are a few feathers you can't push out and a few you don't need to push out. Feathers along the trailing edge of the wing must be pulled out by hand, I just use a pair of pliers. But the wing tip feathers, the feathers out the on the tips of the wings, just use a pair of side cuts at the first joint and remove that wing tip at the first joint, the feathers go with it. Use your side cuts to remove the tail feathers, just cut the "parsons nose" off, feathers go with it. If you do this with water fowl, you must add a bit of dish soap to scalding water to remove to oil off the feathers.

If your just killing the old red rooster for dinner, then skinning the bird is easier, but if you killing a whole flock then leaving the skin on helps protect the meat from things like freezer burn, and keeps that fat on the bird for extra food value.

Some younger chickens will have whats called "pin feathers" Pliers will remove them easily. Young chickens may have very small feathers (look like hairs) that seem to resist removing them at all, just singe them off by holding the chicken over a flame for a few seconds, we just used burning newspaper, quickly rotate the bird over the flame, the small feathers singe right off.

We should get used to picking the birds, that fat is food value that will be very important when the famine hits.


Bob

I think it is horrible..... to use your own personal likes and dislikes to judge others!

Were you saying that to the prophets?