LDS Freedom Forum

edzachary wrote:Hello all,

I've lurked here for quite a while. I thought the time had come to join the conversation.

I live in Sandy, Utah, though originally from the formerly great State of California. I am married, seven kids ages 8-25, and I manage my own business in Internet Development. I am a student of church history and doctrine, as well as a news/politics junkie. Things are getting interesting enough I thought this might prove a good resource for gathering useful information.

thanks,
Jeff

http://www.jefferywestover.com/?p=2993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
February 24, 2011
Voices of Chaos at World’s End
On the recommendation of a friend I’ve been researching news and information relative to the 2nd Coming. It has always been a topic of fascination for me, frankly, dating back to the days when I was in the mission field and McConkie’s Millennial Messiah was all the rage. And with events happening so quickly these days it is easy to assume that a move to Jackson County might as well begin.

But sorting this out is impossible.

One of the resources recommended to me was a couple of LDS forums http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I was a bit shocked at what I’ve read there. Not all the doom and gloom but the clear conjecture and almost total gamesmanship when it comes to predicting the hour of the Savior’s arrival. Kooks like Alex Jones walk on water with this crowd. It is, in a word, very bizarre, even for a weirdo like me.
Look, I’ve got a hard enough time with Glenn Beck. Don’t throw his ugly step sister at me.

Besides — I can read well enough for myself. I can see what is going on and what has transpired these past several years to get the message. I don’t need to be reading tea leaves while these blow hards inflame people as they pretend to know how to connect the dots. Besides, the world was suppose to end with Y2K. It was supposed to end just after 9/11. And then in Iraq. And then in 2010 with the roll-out of TARP funds. Enough already.

http://www.jefferywestover.com/?p=3075" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today I’d like to talk about crazy Mormons online.

Man — where to start? In my travels online I find all sorts but no more extreme and weird than with those who claim my faith. Now, not every Mormon blogger is a crazed lunatic. In fact, I have an inkling that some of the people I bump into online are not actually Mormon at all but are merely people posing as Mormons. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why someone would do that but it has occurred to me that it isn’t outside the realm of possibility.

The Internet is full of surprises. I only have to look at my years of experience dealing with Christmas to confirm that. I have had contact with atheists who collect nativities, Jews for Jesus, and even swearing Santas. Go figger.

But when it comes to Mormon weirdness it runs the gamut. Take, for example, a forum I’ve been looking over recently, LDS Freedom Forum. Here’s a site where I should “fit in”. Mormons talking politics and the last days? Heaven, right?

Wrong.

I’m sure there are some sane and nice people on the site but they must, like me, mostly lurk — afraid to say something for fear of being accused of drinking the Kool-aid. Never have I seen a site more full of people so paranoid and looking for conspiracy under every rock. Oh, I’m sure there are conspiracies under every rock but the list of secret combinations discussed at this site will make your head spin. The 2nd coming is, I’m sure, right around the corner but most here are conversing from the bunkers now. For an entertaining read seach back through the site archives to 2007 or so and read of all the end of the world scenarios and prophecies that didn’t come to pass. Hilarious.

But that doesn’t even scratch the surface of weird. The weirdest of all are those who keep their own blogs and tie whatever is their “thing” straight into scripture. (Which is pretty easy to do with the last days. Not so much when talking about Vegetarianism, Homeschooling or the Designated Hitter).

Squally wrote:

http://www.jefferywestover.com/?p=2993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
February 24, 2011
Voices of Chaos at World’s End
On the recommendation of a friend I’ve been researching news and information relative to the 2nd Coming. It has always been a topic of fascination for me, frankly, dating back to the days when I was in the mission field and McConkie’s Millennial Messiah was all the rage. And with events happening so quickly these days it is easy to assume that a move to Jackson County might as well begin.

But sorting this out is impossible.

One of the resources recommended to me was a couple of LDS forums http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I was a bit shocked at what I’ve read there. Not all the doom and gloom but the clear conjecture and almost total gamesmanship when it comes to predicting the hour of the Savior’s arrival. Kooks like Alex Jones walk on water with this crowd. It is, in a word, very bizarre, even for a weirdo like me.
Look, I’ve got a hard enough time with Glenn Beck. Don’t throw his ugly step sister at me.

Besides — I can read well enough for myself. I can see what is going on and what has transpired these past several years to get the message. I don’t need to be reading tea leaves while these blow hards inflame people as they pretend to know how to connect the dots. Besides, the world was suppose to end with Y2K. It was supposed to end just after 9/11. And then in Iraq. And then in 2010 with the roll-out of TARP funds. Enough already.

After reading this post on your blog (which you made the day after joining this forum), I am better able to see where you are coming from and what you think about the people on this forum. Welcome? :ymparty:

http://www.jefferywestover.com/?p=3116

How to Get Kicked Off a Mormon-Based Website

I got kicked off LDSFreedomForum.com tonight.

This is a site that discusses politics and religion. If that isn’t explosively laden with conflict potential I don’t know what is, even if it is LDS-based. I enjoy discussing issues, especially with folks with whom I share some commonality but I did something that must have really offended someone in charge there. I was gone in less than 200 posts.

I wonder what took them so long? (Actually, it is the first time ever in 20 years online that I’ve ever been kicked off of a website. I’m hoping there’s therapy for this.)

I did write the board administrator to seek out the reason. But I have a sneaky suspicion it was this post from my little ole blog right here that ticked someone off. I’ve seen a lot of linking from it tonight and it all comes from that site. I said that a lot of people there are paranoid and spinning webs constantly about every possible kind of latter-day conspiracy theory. Or something to that effect. And I’m guessing it made the rounds to the powers that be there and they pulled the plug on me.

That’s curious in light of a recent thread there from a moderator who publicly quit their position and entertained a conversation about censorship. I didn’t know this person or the situation that led to the fallout but there were some rather dark suggestions of how that site works.

There is rigidity there amongst some that would astound you. In discussing recent immigration laws passed in the state of Utah there are those who insist that the Church supports amnesty for illegal immigrants. When you ask for proof that is true not a one of them can give you an answer. Yet they persist that a secret combination has created the situation and nothing but total removal of all illegal immigrants will solve the issue and isn’t the Church bad for backing amnesty. Odd stuff. Lots and lots of Church bashing on that site — shocking amounts in fact.

I’m sure I ticked some people off because I did challenge some things I read. There is a contingent there absolutely lock-stock-and-barrel loyal to Alex Jones, an idea I find pretty pathetic. I have a weak stomach for those who can’t think for themselves or who won’t even opine for themselves because I find it intellectually dishonest. When you challenge their paradigm their first response is to either attack you, distort what you’re saying or redirect the question — or all that at the same time. I can be pretty stubborn in those situations and will continue to pull the discussion back in the name of honesty alone. But I never attacked anyone there and I felt I was reasoned and reasonable in my posts.

On one thread in particular I was adamant in my assertion that the government hasn’t been proven to have an earthquake-making super weapon of mass destruction, as the conspiracy theory goes. On that thread I got a few private messages and even some off-site emails warning me that I would be “put to death” on the site soon for what I was saying. It wasn’t that I was being rude or mean, it was that I wasn’t walking in lockstep with the majority opinion of the moderators and site owners. I was told there was no way I would survive and that sooner or later there would be a movement to remove me that I wouldn’t be able to stop.

Well, I don’t know about all that. But I find it curious that I received warnings from lurkers who read what I was saying and who went so far as to come here and contact me away from LDS Freedom Forums to warn me. That really struck me.

But the truth is, I should have known. I’ve lurked there off and on for a while now and I knew what I was in for. That’s why I am not surprised I am gone. It is venues like this that make people see Mormons and run away thinking they are the biggest kooks in the world. When the discussion becomes so one-sided it tends to label us all. And I was hoping that perhaps some alternative voices could temper that and that there could be moderation in views where reasonable discussion takes place. But evidently not.

When there is instant banning without the courtesy of reason, without notification even of what violation you’re guilty of it speaks not only of their standards and professionalism but also of their core beliefs. When the rules leave banning alone to their discretion of what is “respectful” you know you’re not dealing with an even entity (which is their right, by the way). The rules there while vague and inconsistently administered are, after all, the rules. I guess I violated them somehow.

Still, it is a heck of a way to run a “discussion” venue. I know how hard it is, running my own sites. I’ve banned lots of people — thousands even. But it has overwhelmingly been for blatant rules violations — things like posting spam or commercial links — and never because someone had the courage to stand up to their convictions.

And that is what strikes me as odd. That site should be all about convictions. Right or wrong. Those convictions can and ought to be challenged. But I wasn’t challenged. I was just put in the execution chamber and shot. Just like that.

Nice form, LDS Freedom Forum. All the warnings I got about you turned out to be true. And now I will just pass them on to others.

HeirofNumenor wrote:And there is this that he just posted tonight, slamming this website and all of us, yet again...

And with events happening so quickly these days it is easy to assume that a move to Jackson County might as well begin.

Besides, the world was suppose to end with Y2K. It was supposed to end just after 9/11. And then in Iraq. And then in 2010 with the roll-out of TARP funds. Enough already.

ChelC wrote:Well we have had quite a lot of nutty folks here. That I won't deny. Most people want to feel at least sort of normal and sane. If you're having trouble with that at home, I guess making fun of people on the net whom you pretend to befriend is a good way to ease your troubled mind. Whatever floats your boat.

durangout wrote:That's pathetic. Someone's rediculously false paradigms are challenged and the only way they can deal with it is to kick him off. =)) =)) =)) I guess that's why I''m addicted to this site. Just to see what will be posted next.

911 consipracy is a joke
Earthquake doomsday machine is a joke
The world won't collapse this year
Comtrails' consiracy is a joke
The 2nd coming isn't in 2 years
TPTB aren't trying to cause total systemic collapse
TPTB don't control all major political events that happen on the planet
Bush isn't the devil incarnate
Illuminate/Masons don't control the world
Alex Jones =)) =)) =))
Romney is a polititian not the devil incarnate
Beck, hmmmm, makes lots of $$$ and many are jelous (and he has a job to do which is to get ratings like Alex Jones who rides Beck's coattails whenever possible)


That's enough. I feel a little better now.

Mummy wrote:

ChelC wrote:Well we have had quite a lot of nutty folks here. That I won't deny. Most people want to feel at least sort of normal and sane. If you're having trouble with that at home, I guess making fun of people on the net whom you pretend to befriend is a good way to ease your troubled mind. Whatever floats your boat.

You called it!!! Definitely some major deficiencies there. Major idiot too! Know where he lives, what his kids look like, personality deficiencies....etc etc etc. Hope he doesn't come across someone with a mean streak!

Mark wrote:

Mummy wrote:

ChelC wrote:Well we have had quite a lot of nutty folks here. That I won't deny. Most people want to feel at least sort of normal and sane. If you're having trouble with that at home, I guess making fun of people on the net whom you pretend to befriend is a good way to ease your troubled mind. Whatever floats your boat.

You called it!!! Definitely some major deficiencies there. Major idiot too! Know where he lives, what his kids look like, personality deficiencies....etc etc etc. Hope he doesn't come across someone with a mean streak!

That is just a creepy sounding post Mummy. :-ss I don't really live in Del Mar by the way. I moved to Logan and go by the name Shadow. :ymdevil:

Mummy wrote:
LOL...you're not hard to find!

Mark wrote:d. )

HeirofNumenor wrote:

Mark wrote:d. )

Mark...read what I posted...and read also the 2 posted by Squally - go to Edzachary's/Jeffery Westover's page & read for yourself...

A parallel...

When I was hired last fall at the company I am with now...they had us all sign a paper agreeing not to post comments on Facebook/MySpace/Twitter et al., blogs, web pages, letters to editor, etc, that would slam or speak negatively in any way of 1) our employer or 2) the industry we are in. To do so would be a fire-able offense. The reason for this of course is that aside from biting the hand that feeds you, any negative comments made are now in the public domain and combine to create negative impressions via Google searches, lead prospective & new clients to cancel their purchase, and give ammo to critics seeking to influence the BBB, UT Attny. Gen., FTC. This is a big deal, since this month, the FTC released the results of investigating 100 companies in my field, and shut down/brought federal charges against 29 of them - including one that was actively trying to shut down this industry. Realize my company has an A rating with the BBB, and a very good track record. they have an interest in protecting their reputation.

What edzachary did was similar. True, he was not employed by this forum, nor did he sign a contract. But he did post at least 2 write-ups prior to yesterday that were slamming this forum by name. Any organization who was slammed by a member in an outside venue would seek to reign him in, and if warnings/suspensions didn't work, would eventually disassociate themselves from the person.

As a further parallel (admittedly not perfect) - imagine you join the LDS Church, then at some point start publicly posting very negative things attacking the Church, the people, and what they believed in (Jesus Christ & His Gospel). How long would he last before he gets called into the Bishop, maybe the stake president? True, they may try to counsel him, persuade him to cease and desist, and even warn him in the name of the Lord of the consequences if he continues - but if he continues to attack, then what? Eventually, he will be called in for a church council/court and possibly lose his membership.

Were his comments in the forum abrasive? Many times yes. Did he appear holier-than-thou? Yes, thou not as much in this forum as he did in his own blog posts. He frequently made many good and logical points in his posts, as do you - and I thanked him for some of them; others I did not have time to write a detailed response to his questions - maybe that would have helped keep him here, to balance the knee-jerk responses he (thought he) reading. Did others react too strongly or judgmentally? Yes. Did he feel justified in slamming this forum and all in here? Obviously he did - he made that choice and now he has the consequence.

Did he do anything else, besides posting derogatory comments about us on his blog? I don't know.

One final point: he boosts of having run several other forums (which may be true - so far I have only seen his family blogs, though he comments on a variety of topics). does he really open his forums to the public? What sort of standards of conduct does he have? If he is used to a free-wheeling debate like you see even in the online forums of KSL.com, the Deseret News, let alone the Salt Lake Tribune or the New York Time, salon.com, etc., - if THAT is what he is used to - any calls for respect & civility, for each other and the gospel - AND enforcing that respect... that will seem utterly foreign to him...

But hey, that's my two cents.

Mark wrote: I don't really live in Del Mar by the way. I moved to Logan and go by the name Shadow. :ymdevil:

shadow wrote:

Mark wrote: I don't really live in Del Mar by the way. I moved to Logan and go by the name Shadow. :ymdevil:

You're not affiliated with me!