LDS Freedom Forum

But remember, it is more conducive to a lot of people's lifestyle to join other Christian churches because they can just join and "be Christian" but still participate in certain vices. Joining the LDS Church requires more sacrifice and participation

Aye, and that's the rub....

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Rincon wrote:There is more than a single cause.

1. General world-wide moral decay.
2. The Muslim terrorists and the Jews have caused some people to just hate all religion.
3. Liberalism in the Church is like shooting ourselves in the foot. Liberalism doesn't work.
4. Atheism is being taught in public schools and Christianity is not.
5. Efforts to make the Church more like other churches is a serious mistake.

6. Men's hearts failing.

7. Certain "Christian" church groups and pastors who show up to protest at funerals for servicemen killed in combat, saying "God hates you because of America's sins".

If we could baptize people via Facebook or Cellphone, we would covert billions overnight. Maybe we should have a second life LDS gospel, oh wait, that is precisely what satan proposed.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:If we could baptize people via Facebook or Cellphone, we would covert billions overnight. Maybe we should have a second life LDS gospel, oh wait, that is precisely what satan proposed.

I'm with J Golden Kimball....and let's focus on Baptism's for the Dead!

Simple.... The internet

dirtdarte wrote:Simple.... The internet

could you elaborate?

dirtdarte wrote:Simple.... The internet

I would have to agree on several fronts:

1) There are many, many sites out there that attack the Church. Even lifelong members can get their testimonies shaken if they spend time looking at these sites, so just think what can happen to an honest investigator. I will point out that I do look at these sites occasionally, but I have examined history and context to a degree that perhaps I am immune. Thing is, one can twist things around and really do a job on any and all belief systems -- including ours.

2) Taking away from free time for prayer and reflection. How many of our female members spend hours and hours on Farmville, Cafe World, Petville, etc. on Facebook rather than doing any outreach?

3) Pornography. Okay, there are going to be men and women out there who will waste time on looking at porn. Now add to this that there are some who really resent recent talks against porn by the Church and may begin to question devotion to our religion.

4) Virtual worlds. People are increasingly using social sites such as Facebook and Second Life to socialize -- this may take away from people's desire to get all dressed up on Sunday to see friends.

Okay there are three reasons the internet may hurt Church growth. Another aspect is that people are not USING the internet enough to promote the Gospel.

Fiannan wrote:

dirtdarte wrote:Simple.... The internet

I would have to agree on several fronts:

1) There are many, many sites out there that attack the Church. Even lifelong members can get their testimonies shaken if they spend time looking at these sites, so just think what can happen to an honest investigator. I will point out that I do look at these sites occasionally, but I have examined history and context to a degree that perhaps I am immune. Thing is, one can twist things around and really do a job on any and all belief systems -- including ours.

2) Taking away from free time for prayer and reflection. How many of our female members spend hours and hours on Farmville, Cafe World, Petville, etc. on Facebook rather than doing any outreach?

3) Pornography. Okay, there are going to be men and women out there who will waste time on looking at porn. Now add to this that there are some who really resent recent talks against porn by the Church and may begin to question devotion to our religion.

4) Virtual worlds. People are increasingly using social sites such as Facebook and Second Life to socialize -- this may take away from people's desire to get all dressed up on Sunday to see friends.

Okay there are three reasons the internet may hurt Church growth. Another aspect is that people are not USING the internet enough to promote the Gospel.

Again, this could be a plausible reason IF it was a problem for every religion, but it isn't. JW's and 7th days are showing an increase in the percentage of growth they are having. They are extremely strict religions, so this reasoning just falls flat IMO.

To elaborate...

The internet makes it very easy to investigate the Church and discover answers that the missionaries can't or won't go into. People who are serious about learning about the Church will go on line to get answers to some of the problematic questions that will arise eventually. From a strictly financial standpoint, it only makes sense to do so. After all, 10% of your income is a significant investment especially in tough economic times.

Once on line, the investigators volume of questions will increase. The "problems" they will run into will simply overwhelm them. Even if the missionaries or knowledgeable members address these problems with them, it won't be enough in almost all cases.

Church growth is coming from areas where the availability of the internet is minimal. Poor areas, 3rd world countries etc.

The Church has made significant progress using the internet to promote the Church but it appears to not be enough. Until the problems are addressed and questions answered, the decline in membership will continue to decline. Retention of the youth is becoming a serious problem and is accelerating. Simply put, in the US, Church growth is coming from the birth rate of active member families... children of record baptisms... not from missionary efforts. In Europe there is no growth, rather it is in steep decline. Ask a return missionary who served in Europe.

Even in areas where there is growth (3rd world countries or poverty stricken areas) retention is problematic. The member numbers are counted on the Church books, but the level of activity is in steep decline.

Mahonri, it seems like you are onto something. When we promoted larger families I never once heard a person cite that as a reason for going inactive. Sure, when Ezra Taft Benson made a big deal of it there was some criticism, but it came from the same folk who look down on the Church anyway. Yet now the Church makes statements about that issue that sound like something a law class could debate the meaning of and so all we get is confusion.

A couple of things come to my mind with regard to this question.

1) Babylon: People are driven by the world and the things of God don't matter too much. After all, as long as you've got cash, you're doing fine .
However, when difficultes hit and hit they will, some will be compelled to be humble and turn to God. Unfortunately, sometimes that is what it takes, I know I'm a slow learner anyway.

2) I mean no disrespect with this one, but it seems we, as a church, focus so much on what we have in common, that we focus less on what sets us apart as a religion, which is our doctrine and the necessity of ordinances. I don't understand this, but we as a people seem to just want to fit in with everybody and be "one of the guys," which will obviously not cause us to stand out. God's people were always meant to be different and stand out, otherwise nobody else would see a reason to figure out what is up with those strange folk over there. For me personally, the more I try to be like my Savior, the more unpredictable my life is. I find myself doing and saying things I wouldn't normally do and at times it gets people unnerved, which isn't my intention, but possibly the Lord's.

Anyway, I don't think numbers really mean a whole lot. It doesn't matter if there are 50 million members or 14, what matters is the kind of people we are. God's true followers have always been small in number and denomination has nothing to do with it. There are true followers in and out of the LDS faith. This will be exemplified in greater detail as we approach the Lord's return.

dirtdarte wrote: [snip]

Once on line, the investigators volume of questions will increase. The "problems" they will run into will simply overwhelm them. Even if the missionaries or knowledgeable members address these problems with them, it won't be enough in almost all cases.

Church growth is coming from areas where the availability of the internet is minimal. Poor areas, 3rd world countries etc.

The Church has made significant progress using the internet to promote the Church but it appears to not be enough. Until the problems are addressed and questions answered, the decline in membership will continue to decline. Retention of the youth is becoming a serious problem and is accelerating. Simply put, in the US, Church growth is coming from the birth rate of active member families... children of record baptisms... not from missionary efforts. In Europe there is no growth, rather it is in steep decline. Ask a return missionary who served in Europe.

Even in areas where there is growth (3rd world countries or poverty stricken areas) retention is problematic. The member numbers are counted on the Church books, but the level of activity is in steep decline.

This will change in the near future, IMO -- with dramatic growth of the Restored Church accompanying the meeting at Adam-ondi and the building of the New Jerusalem.

I cannot help thinking that the cleansing will thin out the Church membership along with the population of North America.

I agree lundbaek. I cannot fathom why the good doctor thinks we will see an explosion in membership.

1st, the true followers of Christ have always been described as extremely small in number

2nd the predicted cleansing, starting in the Lords house.

Both point to a REDUCTION in numbers, not growth.

There will be many that will join us. There will be two camps only, the righteous and the wicked. The righteous, not of our faith, will join us for protection.

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Rincon wrote:
It's just the liberals in the Church who feel a need to fit in with the world.

) I wish

I know in my area, baptisms have went down the past few years for the missionaries...

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I believe the more people are exposed to what is truly happening in our world the more they will see the NEED to be active in the Church. I once spoke to a family that was volunteering at a local fair behind one of the political booths that was LDS. The mother told me that the family had been inactive for several years until they started finding out what was going on in the world and they realized that to protect their kids they had to be active and informed. Unless people see the need they many will continue to take the easy way and enjoy a trip to the mountains with their kids on Sunday rather than go to Church. Remember, to sacrifice hours on a Sunday one needs a reason besides the fairly abstract concepts that are associated with eternal progression.

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lundbaek wrote:Maybe if we got a Latter-day Saint as U.S. President.....one who has the integrity to abide by all principles of morality and of the original US Constitution and speak fearlessly about Church tenets when given the opportunity.

Mitt Romney doesn't fit that bill.

I think we can add a few more causes:

1) Birth control becoming acceptable to the Mormon population.

2) A singles program that segregates according to age in such a way that many LDS women who do not marry in their early 20s are prevented from taking part in activities with males who are LDS, but slightly older than the 30 cut off.

3) Materialism in the church leading to an increased divorce rate.

Sorry, can't blame the atheists, pornographers or gays for this.