LDS Freedom Forum

Capital: Cash or goods used to generate income either by investing in a business or diferrent income property. (e.g. leveraging money to make more money)

Capitalism: An economic system which promotes the use of cash or goods to generate income either by investing in a business or diferrent income property.

Did I get your attention? On another thread, some where debating whether Cleon Skousen ever bashed Capitalism. I don't know that he did. But I have no problem doing it. I do not favor Capitalism. But that doesn't mean I am for Communism. This is an obvious false dichotomy. What I favor is Free Enterprise, which is essentially Capitalism without the Usury. Free Enterprise recognizes property rights, individual liberty and self-determination. Free Enterprise provides equality of opportunity but not necessarily equality of result.

The Constitution calls for FREE ENTERPRISE not CAPITALISM. Are you brave enough to break your mind-control and admit it? Some how we've been programmed to associate Capitalism with freedom and even the gospel of Jesus Christ. Capitalism isn't free, Capitalism produces a Corporatocracy that is unelected, self-interested, and oppressive. Capitalism little better than Communism or Socialism. Free Enterprise means equal opportunity and equals true freedom.

The half-truth of Capitalism is that we should let the free market decide what to invest in and where to take the economy and not the government. That is true. Letting the markets decide is Free Enterprise. But Capitalism is not the way to do it. The half-lie part of capitalism is that society needs some to be ultra-wealthy.

Capitalism is inherently unequal because it requires that certain people in the society amass more wealth than others. Then those people with the massive wealth, have unrivaled, unelected Machiavellian power to decide what they will or will not invest in, to leverage that capital to make more money, to make other people their economic surfs and sharecroppers via usury, and to influence law makers via campaign contributions.

So, in an egalitarian society where there is freedom of opportunity and not freedom of results, is that no man would be enslaved to another. That applies to economic enslavement as well. In an egalitarian economy, the wealthy would not leverage wealth to create more wealth. The scriptures command, "by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread all the days of thy life." It does not say, "by the sweat of thy neighbor"

In a FREE ENTERPRISE system the US Treasury creates all the money, and local banks issue "fee-based", no-interest loans to individuals, groups, and communities who are credit worthy. The rules that determine credit worthiness would be uniform. No loop holes. No exemptions. The problem with our current system is that many of the wealthy are "above the law" and they operate under and different set of rules than the rest of us.

In a True Fee Enterprise system, credit would be freely available based on uniform criteria. Therefore, if someone were to gain wealth by his skill and labor, He wouldn't be tempted to use that wealth to economically enslave others by issuing credit with usury.

A Constitutional Republic which supports the Free Enterprise economic system with truly free markets, would support local banking institutions that we could name Safety Societies. These local and state institutions could determine credit-worthiness, and administer "fee-based", no-interest loans using money created by the US Treasury for non-depreciating real assets. In this way, this money that is created doesn't have to be backed by gold or silver, or anything, because the asset itself is the backing for the loan. Such real assets would include land, real estate, and even some well-made heirloom furniture.

These Safety Societies would never speculate. That is, they would never invest their reserves in stock or derivatives. Safety Societies would be non-profit and charge loan origination fees and monthly service charges to cover the cost of business. However, since the capital for the loans they issue is coming from the US Treasury, they don't need to make profits to make more loans. Safety Societies would also practice Full Reserve Banking. That is, they never loan what they don't have, since they get 100% from the US Treasury, and they never lend out deposits. Therefore, all deposits are kept at the bank, ready for immediate withdrawal at any moment. Therefore, the Safety Society would never be threatened by a bank run.

Today's banks operate on Fractional Reserves. Fed-member Mega-banks can lend 10x what they themselves borrow from the FED. However, because of inflation due to Amortized loans, they must hold reserves as stock, bonds, and derivatives because we have been continually devaluing our currency. And these banks are continually threatened by a bank run because they only ever have less than 10% of reserves on hand. If withdrawals or a stock market crash destroy that 10%, then the bank becomes insolvent, and goes bust. Safety Societies are immune to all of this.

CAPITALISM
Isa 10:13-14 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man: And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

FREE ENTERPRISE
Isa 65:21-22 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: . . . and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain,

Sorry Davedan
you seem to be confused
What you have described is called Crony Capitalism
and is much different than Capitalism.
I suggest you become familiar with Crony Capitalism before denigrating the principle of economy that has produced the greatest
prosperity ever seen.

Capitalism does equal inequality and it a d*** good thing.
Its called the power and right to fail or succeed. That is freedom. The power to choose the Plan of Salvation or the plan of satan.

Another point.
You talk about "credit worthy".
Just who would decide what the the criteria is to be "credit worthy" and who would ensure that those institutions issuing this credit actually conformed to this notion of worthiness.
The power to enforce is the power of the gun which is what the Government is, the power of force by gun. You have just given power into the hands of government to decide who receives the means to produce and the means to invest. That is why your system will fail just like our system is failing today. Government social and financial planning will fail. Your system has now allowed for government bureaucrats and politicians to financially plan out the systems of production along with all the special interest groups and thugs that want to control those who want to work and produce and succeed.

You say the wealthy should not leverage their wealth to make more money.
So you would be opposed to the poor leveraging their wealth as well?
What if the a poor Machinist wanted to loan out his tools rather then money, his wealth in the form of his tools or what if he wanted to loan out his labor rather then his money in order to make money? Would you deny the poor man his right to loan out his time and labor.

And why exactly would you want to take away the right of the man with money to invest it as he sees fit. Doesn't he have a right to his wealth? The symbol of his labor, his personal or private property. And who would you give this right to? Obviously it would have to be someone with the power of enforcement or in other words the government directed by thugs with guns. Who is the better judge of what to do with ones private property than the man who earned his money by the seat of his brow.

The truth of Capitalism is that there can be ultra wealthy and that each one of us can achieve that if the market determines our labor and product to be worth it. That is just. Nothing undeserved. Market forces do not play favorites. Crony Capitalism does. Which is what you are in essence arguing for, its just a different form of control.

You might have some good ideas but your foundation is flawed.
Capitalism = Inequality.
Men are created equal but not forced to live equal.

Davedan,
Quit buying into the liberal ( hidden communist ) agenda preached at every college campus now days!

Look up: CORPORATISM

Corporatocracy = Corpratism = Crony Captialism

Just because a person is critical of Capitalism doesn't make them a Communist (hidden or otherwise).
And nothing of what I explained above did I ever hear on a college campus.

Capitalism vs. Communism is a false choice, a false dichotomy. When can we stop being Capitalist Shills. And as the super-wealthy capitalist destroy the economies of the world, when will we wake up? Why defend what is destroying the world?

Again, capitalism by definition needs certain people to amass more capital then others. Those people with the capital then become our unelected economic leaders who can use that power to enslave, oppress, consolidate, and corrupt.

There were a lot of personal attacks, but what specifically about the SAFETY SOCIETY idea and equal access to credit do people NOT like? What about it is ANTI-CAPITALISM?

I agree, with Roarke - you correctly identify a lot of problems in the current system, but your solutions are not good ones. You either force society as a whole to accept the risk of loaning money to everyone, regardless of how likely they are to repay, or someone will have to be in charge of deciding who is creditworthy. Roarke says it perfectly - who is better at determining that than the person who earned the money by the sweat of his brow?

I think your heart is definitely in the right place, but the real problems with capitalism was when capitalists were able, due to the weakness of men, to buy access and control of politicians who then made prtoective regulations to bar competition from entering the markets (or at least made it a whole lot harder. Laisez Faire capitalism or as you say Free Enterprise is the way to go. But I do think you are confusing the current corporatocracy with capitalism.

Also, as to your title, we could also say that Free Agency - Inequality.

davedan wrote:Capitalism is inherently unequal because it requires that certain people in the society amass more wealth than others. Then those people with the massive wealth, have unrivaled, unelected Machiavellian power to decide what they will or will not invest in, to leverage that capital to make more money, to make other people their economic surfs and sharecroppers via usury, and to influence law makers via campaign contributions.

Then what do you plan to do about this economic/political inequality? The moment you seize the private property of another, you've abandoned the free enterprise, capitalistic system. It's also worth nothing that the United Order is still a free enterprise system, because all methods of approaching economic egalitarianism are VOLUNTARY. Think of it as capitalism on private-charity steroids.

Humanity itself is inherently unequal, due to agency."These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they." You don't remove pain, suffering, inequality, and evil through coercion. That was Satan's plan. You remove it through trusting in the Lord, educating others, and working towards Zion. Be patient. That day is nigh.

The reality of Free Enterprise, or Capitalism, or whatever economic platform is used there will be inequality. The separation of wealth from one person to another person is inevitable, and those with discipline and wisdom end up with others money. Human nature is such that some are not capable of handling any kind of prosperity no matter how much training and education you give them. They simply operate with baseline primal motivation to consume material objects to feed the ego. I have have 4 children, 2 are thrifty that always have money, 1 is learning financial discipline because of past mistakes, and the other one will never have a dime in savings because the minute any kind of money falls into his hands he is off to the store for another useless electronic item with more gigs. He is so proud of his 3500 songs on his newest out of date ipod. My children demonstrate a small sampling of the human demographic.

Inequality is not bad.... who says we all HAVE to be equal? Only one person I know of and it is not Christ.

Equality sounds like a great idea however, we know that no two people are ever equal nor should they be forced to be Equal! The parable of the sower is what you need to understand. If we try to make our lot better the lord will bless us. If we are lazy and hide it under a bushel the lord will take it from us. That is not equally folks that is the law of the sower. You shall reap what you sow. Where in the parable does it say you all have to be equal. Satan says you all will be equal with him as your god. Equal in poverty, abominations and evil.

It is funny that the revolutionary movements of England, France, Russia, China, USA all try to say we want freedom (anarchy), Equality (no man may excel above another (except those of us in charge ha ha)) let me put to you just one of the 25 goals of the Illuminati (started by a jew rothchild or roth schild) for you right here.

10. Dealing with the use of slogans he said “In ancient times we were the first to put the words
‘Liberty’, ‘Equality’ and ‘Fraternity’ into the mouths of the masses ... words repeated to this
day by stupid pollparrots; words which the would-be wise men of the Goyim could make
nothing of in their abstractness, and did not note the contradiction of their meaning and interrelation.”
He claimed the words brought under their directions and control ‘legions’ “Who bore
our banners with enthusiasm.” He reasoned that there is no place in nature for ‘Equality’,
‘Liberty’ or ‘Fraternity’. He said “On the ruins of the natural and genealogical aristocracy of
the Goyim we have set up the aristocracy of MONEY. The qualification for this aristocracy is
WEALTH which is dependent upon us.”

The international Bankers (NWO folks) control the money. When you control the money you don't have a free economy any more. Capitalism stops working. When you control the issue of money then the money lenders OWN YOU. Once they have you in their grip you will do anything they say or lose everything you own and you may starve to death. Once they own a countries bank (central bank, Bank of England, Federal Reserve) then they can at will start a revolution. They put the masses into poverty. Near starvation levels. Then they bring in their savior who promises change. They kill all those who were in power and those that oppose international Bankers. Start a revolution and implement all the changes that they want which enslaves the masses and puts them in permanent power.

Revolution is a blow struck at a paralytic. ... When the debt-grip has been firmly established,
control of every form of publicity and political activity soon follows, together with a full grip on
industrialists, [both management and labour]. The stage is then set for the revolutionary blow.
The grip of the right hand of finance establishes the paralysis; while the revolutionary left hand
that holds the dagger and deals the fatal blow. Moral corruption facilitates the whole process.”

7. He next advocated the use of ‘Mob Psychology’ to obtain control of the masses. He
reasoned that the might of the Mob is blind, senseless, and unreasoning and ever at the mercy of
suggestion from any side. He stated “Only a despotic ruler can rule the Mob efficiently because
without absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilization which was carried out NOT

by the masses, but by their guide, whosoever that person might be.” He warned “The moment
the Mob seizes FREEDOM in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy.”

These quotes for from the book "Pawns in the Game". I think it is better than none dare call it conspiracy.

I agree with Roark. Capitalism + GREED and PRIDE = Crony Capitalism which then slides into Socialism/Fascism/Tyranny, etc.
Capitalism obviously is a good thing. Look at how America prospered in its first almost 200 years or so until now where we have crony capitalism/socialism.

The real issue that is to be discussed here is the subject of weasel words. What exactly is Capitalism? Who set the definition for it?

I'm pretty sure most of us here all believe in the same money driven society. What I believe Capitalism to be is what the original poster believes free enterprise to be. Some people believe capitalism to contain other things. IMO, we need to be careful how we use these words and judge others when using them. I think this is a tool used by satan to make sure citizens never really understand each other.

The thread name implies that because CAPITALISM = INEQUALITY, Capitalism is therefore the cause of inequality, which is evil. iamse7en did a good job at shutting down that logic:

iamse7en wrote:

davedan wrote:Capitalism is inherently unequal because it requires that certain people in the society amass more wealth than others. Then those people with the massive wealth, have unrivaled, unelected Machiavellian power to decide what they will or will not invest in, to leverage that capital to make more money, to make other people their economic surfs and sharecroppers via usury, and to influence law makers via campaign contributions.

Then what do you plan to do about this economic/political inequality? The moment you seize the private property of another, you've abandoned the free enterprise, capitalistic system. It's also worth nothing that the United Order is still a free enterprise system, because all methods of approaching economic egalitarianism are VOLUNTARY. Think of it as capitalism on private-charity steroids.

Humanity itself is inherently unequal, due to agency."These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they." You don't remove pain, suffering, inequality, and evil through coercion. That was Satan's plan. You remove it through trusting in the Lord, educating others, and working towards Zion. Be patient. That day is nigh.

Either way, davedan, what do you suggest replace capitalism??? Anything you replace it with entails government force, which is nothing more or less than Satan's plan. No one here is promoting the Crony Capitalism you are describing; this is what we got today in America and it is definitely flawed. The US started out pretty close to a nearly pure capitalism (free enterprise as you want to refer to it) but quickly, corruption of the powerful (rich bankers and businessmen as well as politicians) combined to give us the crony capitalism of today. I remind you that Crony Capitalism results from totalitarian combinations of powerful public (government) and private (businessman) interests. Government and private greed go hand-in-hand in Crony Capitalism.

Army Of Truth wrote:I agree with Roark. Capitalism + GREED and PRIDE = Crony Capitalism which then slides into Socialism/Fascism/Tyranny, etc.
Capitalism obviously is a good thing. Look at how America prospered in its first almost 200 years or so until now where we have crony capitalism/socialism.

You missed one important ingredient in that equation: Capitalism + GOVERMENT + GREED + PRIDE = Crony Capitalism

Take Greed + Pride out of the equation and we would have True Capitalism = Free Enterprise.

If Capitalism + GOVERMENT + GREED + PRIDE = Crony Capitalism,
and Capitalism + GOVERMENT = Free Enterprise,
then Capitalism + GOVERMENT + The Love of Christ = The United Order.

7cylon7 wrote:Inequality is not bad.... who says we all HAVE to be equal? Only one person I know of and it is not Christ.

Actually, Christ did say it:

But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. ~ D&C 49:20


...appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs. ~ D&C 51:3

Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. ~ D&C 70:14

For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; ~ D&C 78:5-6

But He never said this equality is to be created through compulsion. It is to be created through willing entrance into covenant.

MercynGrace wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:Inequality is not bad.... who says we all HAVE to be equal? Only one person I know of and it is not Christ.

Actually, Christ did say it:

But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. ~ D&C 49:20


...appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs. ~ D&C 51:3

Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. ~ D&C 70:14

For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; ~ D&C 78:5-6

But He never said this equality is to be created through compulsion. It is to be created through willing entrance into covenant.

If your so smart please explain the meaning of the sower parable and your comment on we are all equal? If you do that then you will know what my point was. noob

MercynGrace wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:Inequality is not bad.... who says we all HAVE to be equal? Only one person I know of and it is not Christ.

Actually, Christ did say it:

But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. ~ D&C 49:20


...appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs. ~ D&C 51:3

Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. ~ D&C 70:14

For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; ~ D&C 78:5-6

But He never said this equality is to be created through compulsion. It is to be created through willing entrance into covenant.

And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. Abr 3:19

All of this has to be taken together. Perfect equality cannot exist, never has existed (as found in Abraham) and never will exist. Thus inequality is not in and of itself evil. It is not the Lord's way that ALL be completely equal. Agency comes into play here. Else why the different kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial?

The words of Christ you quoted call for us, as children of God, to help lift others up through various means, including charitable giving (law of consecration being a Celestial law). But agency also comes into play here. We can do all we can to lift others up, but if they do not CHOOSE to put the effort in themselves, they will not progress in this life or the next.

But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin

This guidance is given in relation to the law of consecration, a law that no one is COMPELLED to live. But our exaltation depends on the ability to live this law. Use of our AGENCY in this matter is critical.

By the way, the law of consecration can only work in a society where the love of Christ reigns. Our society today has a long way to go!

Teancum,
I specfically responded to what I excerpted from 7cylcon7's post. I believe you've read more into my words than I intended. . I'm well aware that the march toward Zion is yet before us...

MnG

PS Also I specifically pointed out that the verses referred to covenant NOT compulsion.

Hornet's nest!!!

I agree with Davedan's assessment of 'capitalism' as compared to 'free enterprise'. I think his quotes from Isaiah are perfect in illustrating my view of 'free enterprise' as opposed to the 'slavery of capitalism'.

I'm not particularly entranced by any 'ism'. They all seem to lead to 'totalitarianism'.

Here's a link to a concise analysis of where 'capitalism' will lead the social order:

http://www.archive.org/stream/servilest ... 7/mode/2up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quote on title page...

"If we do not restore the Institution of Property we cannot escape restoring the Institution of Slavery; there is no third course."

Property embodies the potential for individual wealth, thereby the means by which that individual is free to make his way in life. There is much joy in being 'free' to govern our own property and inherent skills & gifts to create wealth.

Wealth is not necessarily the biggest pile of paper or gold.

And thank you, MercyGrace, for your scriptures, as well.

7cylon7 wrote:
If your so smart please explain the meaning of the sower parable and your comment on we are all equal? If you do that then you will know what my point was. noob

I never said I was "so smart". I just offered scriptures showing where you might have jumped the gun with a single statement. It wasn't intended to be offensive. It was intended to show that there is more to God's view of economy than cheerleading one man-made economic system over another. You are the one who brought Christ into the discussion.

Also, noob? Name calling doesn't become any latter-day saint and it isn't even applicable. I have more posts here than you do. Lower your defenses and let's discuss the topic, okay?

MercynGrace wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:Inequality is not bad.... who says we all HAVE to be equal? Only one person I know of and it is not Christ.

Actually, Christ did say it:

But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. ~ D&C 49:20


...appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs. ~ D&C 51:3

Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld. ~ D&C 70:14

For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things; ~ D&C 78:5-6

But He never said this equality is to be created through compulsion. It is to be created through willing entrance into covenant.

....all in the interpretation of equality too!

Could be as simple as equal opportunity to work.....and reap the rewards of your labor and effort while expanding individual talents!

Generally Mummy, I think you are right but the verse from D&C 49 specifically refers to that which we possess.

Like buffalo gal, I think -isms are a distraction from the real goal

MercynGrace wrote:Generally Mummy, I think you are right but the verse from D&C 49 specifically refers to that which we possess.

Like buffalo gal, I think -isms are a distraction from the real goal

True....but everyone's needs and wants will be different....so how can that which we possess be equal in that sense?

I completely agree. IMO, it's about having what we need and want so that there is no poor among us and so that no one is mistreated or abused for another's gain. - whether that is mistreatment comes by greed or forced redistribution, it is an infringement upon the liberty wherewith God made all men free.

Hence my disdain for -isms.

-isms create -ites.

MercynGrace wrote:I completely agree. IMO, it's about having what we need and want so that there is no poor among us and so that no one is mistreated or abused for another's gain. - whether that is mistreatment comes by greed or forced redistribution, it is an infringement upon the liberty wherewith God made all men free.

Hence my disdain for -isms.

-isms create -ites.

Gotcha! Can't wait....