LDS Freedom Forum

Teancum wrote:

Mummy wrote:

The clear lesson to be learned from this economic law is that common resources, which everyone has access to, lead to rapid depletion and destruction of those resources as the public attempts to horde as much as they can before the resources are depleted.

I would argue the tragedy of the commons receives far too little attention as a rational explanation for the cancerous expansion of the State. For what is the State other than people looting each others’ private property in a zero sum game of resource redistribution? The tragedy of the commons gives us a rational basis for the consistent and constant expansion of the coercively funded democratic State and why that expansion always leads to the destruction of society.

Alexander Tytler once wrote, “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury.” I would argue Tytler had the cause and effect inverted in his statement. Modern democracies are specifically created for the express purpose of establishing common property across an entire State region.

To be logically consistent, Tytler’s statement should be rewritten as: The modern democratic State cannot exist without the largess of the public treasury.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest- ... dy-commons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, we see this every day when we consider any publicly owned facilities. Most people don't respect them much because they don't own it and are not directly accountable for their upkeep and maintenance. Naturally, publicly owned facilities get so abused and neglected; no wonder it costs government a fortune (aside from their own inefficiency and corruption) to preserve public parks, public schools, public lands, public transportation, public housing projects, etc..

But what does this all have to do with the CAPITALISM = INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY subject Mummy?

capitalism sucks in a democracy

But what does this all have to do with the CAPITALISM = INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY subject Mummy?

"If we do not restore the Institution of Property we cannot escape restoring the Institution of Slavery; there is no third course." Hilaire Belloc 1870-1953

buffalo_girl wrote:

But what does this all have to do with the CAPITALISM = INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY subject Mummy?

"If we do not restore the Institution of Property we cannot escape restoring the Institution of Slavery; there is no third course." Hilaire Belloc 1870-1953

Amen!

I might add that God did a magnificent job designing planet.....all around we see things designed to increase. Drop a lone seed in the ground and you get a plant that produces 100's of seeds. Or a seed that turns into a tree and produces millions of seeds year after year, decade after decade. Marvelous design.

Its taken shackles upon shackles to curb the production in our system.....not to mention all the leaches.

buffalo_girl wrote:

But what does this all have to do with the CAPITALISM = INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY subject Mummy?

"If we do not restore the Institution of Property we cannot escape restoring the Institution of Slavery; there is no third course." Hilaire Belloc 1870-1953

Right on buffalo_girl!

BrentL wrote:OFF TOPIC, DEATH TO THE MUMMY. DEATH. ALL YOU EVER THINK OF IS AMERICANISM AND AND AND STUFF.

X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X(

Gee! What has got into BrentL? Is he always this way? A man of few words it seems... :-\

BrentL, let me make a suggestion... Relax and give folks a little more insight into your thought process, that way you will get a fair shake on your posts.

If so, then those who are extremely efficient may become fairly independant and require very little, if any, support from the storehouse for their own "needs " while still rendering all their residue to the "storehouse". On the other hand there will be some who are not as efficient, and will require more aid from the "storehouse" than others. Therefore some stewards may be adding more to the storehouse and using less from the storehouse than others.

In my view, efficiency has NOTHING to do with the equation. I believe people are motivated by a combination of a.) access to their OWN property (Stewardship), b.) inherent and unique talents, and c.) the opportunity to develop a level of SKILL with which to render a PRODUCT (things) they are able to use and/or trade.

People will be happy from their WORK creating a tangible PRODUCT or SERVICE which embodies a combination of these factors.

It is when people are kept from achieving their POTENTIAL that they lose motivation and productivity. There are many factors which discourage productivity. A sense of Hopelessness arising from any number of assaults on a person's spiritual or physical well-being can dampen the realization of Potential.

I believe that a good part of one's God given Stewardship is to TEACH others SKILLS which insure the SUCCESS of The Student as an independent Steward in his/her own right. I believe we are taught that Principle by our participation in the Temple Endowment.

Not ONE of us will get through life without coaching, instruction, patience, encouragement, physical assistance, sincere interest in another's well-being, and the exercise of plain 'good manners'.

But are you suggesting that life under the law of consecration will have no use for money?? Your example curiously excludes money altogether assuming that the residue is made up only of the commodities produced in any given stewardship.

I have no idea if there will be money as a 'medium of exchange'. If the 'residue' is at the Store House, then people can simply pull up their conveyance and stock up on what they need and want. I don't imagine anyone will take more than needed since everyone is Happy doing what their particular Stewardship entails and 'things' aren't necessary to create the illusion of Happiness. People are Content with the outcome of their own Work and Appreciative of the Work of Others. No Competition.

I assume the transactions at the storehouse will go on very similarly to how Bishop's privately and quitely administer the fast offering funds to those in need today. Only those who run the storehouse will have definite knowledge of who has added or subtracted from its quantity. It will not be public knowledge.

WHY shouldn't it be 'public knowledge'? If we are ALL content with our individual Stewardships and love & respect each other then we are simply sharing the bounty created from our own unique labors. NO cause for embarrassment or shame. EVERYONE will rely on the Store House for something or other!

Teancum wrote:

BrentL wrote:OFF TOPIC, DEATH TO THE MUMMY. DEATH. ALL YOU EVER THINK OF IS AMERICANISM AND AND AND STUFF.

X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X(

Gee! What has got into BrentL? Is he always this way? A man of few words it seems... :-\

BrentL, let me make a suggestion... Relax and give folks a little more insight into your thought process, that way you will get a fair shake on your posts.

Or less insight.

Usury is a concept that once again has been skewed over time. It used to simply mean the charging of interest on loans of money or its equal.
In modern times it has become known as a term meaning to over charge or levy excessive terms on loans.
The charging of interest is the purest form of allocating resources to the most desirable place based on risk and return.
Also this is not taking in to account regulation which screws up everything it touches.

BrentL wrote:OFF TOPIC, DEATH TO THE MUMMY. DEATH. ALL YOU EVER THINK OF IS AMERICANISM AND AND AND STUFF.

Hey that kind of stuff will get you banned!!! :-B

LOL....and THANK YOU for the laugh!!!

Teancum wrote:

BrentL wrote:OFF TOPIC, DEATH TO THE MUMMY. DEATH. ALL YOU EVER THINK OF IS AMERICANISM AND AND AND STUFF.

X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X( X(

Gee! What has got into BrentL? Is he always this way? A man of few words it seems... :-\

BrentL, let me make a suggestion... Relax and give folks a little more insight into your thought process, that way you will get a fair shake on your posts.

Brent is a good man to have around on a cold wet night when no one else is prepared.....and the rest of the time too....unless he's banning you from your addiction...LOL!

buffalo_girl wrote:

If so, then those who are extremely efficient may become fairly independant and require very little, if any, support from the storehouse for their own "needs " while still rendering all their residue to the "storehouse". On the other hand there will be some who are not as efficient, and will require more aid from the "storehouse" than others. Therefore some stewards may be adding more to the storehouse and using less from the storehouse than others.

In my view, efficiency has NOTHING to do with the equation. I believe people are motivated by a combination of a.) access to their OWN property (Stewardship), b.) inherent and unique talents, and c.) the opportunity to develop a level of SKILL with which to render a PRODUCT (things) they are able to use and/or trade.

People will be happy from their WORK creating a tangible PRODUCT or SERVICE which embodies a combination of these factors.

It is when people are kept from achieving their POTENTIAL that they lose motivation and productivity. There are many factors which discourage productivity. A sense of Hopelessness arising from any number of assaults on a person's spiritual or physical well-being can dampen the realization of Potential.

I believe that a good part of one's God given Stewardship is to TEACH others SKILLS which insure the SUCCESS of The Student as an independent Steward in his/her own right. I believe we are taught that Principle by our participation in the Temple Endowment.

Not ONE of us will get through life without coaching, instruction, patience, encouragement, physical assistance, sincere interest in another's well-being, and the exercise of plain 'good manners'.

But are you suggesting that life under the law of consecration will have no use for money?? Your example curiously excludes money altogether assuming that the residue is made up only of the commodities produced in any given stewardship.

I have no idea if there will be money as a 'medium of exchange'. If the 'residue' is at the Store House, then people can simply pull up their conveyance and stock up on what they need and want. I don't imagine anyone will take more than needed since everyone is Happy doing what their particular Stewardship entails and 'things' aren't necessary to create the illusion of Happiness. People are Content with the outcome of their own Work and Appreciative of the Work of Others. No Competition.

I assume the transactions at the storehouse will go on very similarly to how Bishop's privately and quitely administer the fast offering funds to those in need today. Only those who run the storehouse will have definite knowledge of who has added or subtracted from its quantity. It will not be public knowledge.

WHY shouldn't it be 'public knowledge'? If we are ALL content with our individual Stewardships and love & respect each other then we are simply sharing the bounty created from our own unique labors. NO cause for embarrassment or shame. EVERYONE will rely on the Store House for something or other!

I believe we will have to agree to disagree here. It seems you are implying a perfect world scenario to your assumptions. This may be the case after the second coming during the millenial reign of Christ, but before then I don't think all of us will be completely "pure in heart." In preparing for Zion, there will be challenges because we will not all be quite ready for living in a Zion society; we will all be at different levels of having "Zion" in our hearts (again, inequality). Therefore issues will be encountered, just as when the Church previously attempted to implement the law of consecration to its fullest extent, some of them being: "factors which discourage productivity," not everyone will be "content with [their] individual Stewardships," there will be some "cause for embarrassment or shame" therefore use of the storehouse will be wisely kept private as our use of fast offerings today.

I don't believe the Church will just wake up one day and find themselves to be "pure in heart." The Lord is teaching us and we still have a long way to go as a Church for this, unless of course, the cleansing of the Church is just right around the corner. That would definitely be a great lesson for all of us; moving us very close to the goals of Zion. Although everyone will move closer to Zion in heart after the cleansing, our progress to Zion will be at different speeds, some arriving to that state of life before others (again, inequality).

buffalo_girl wrote:

But are you suggesting that life under the law of consecration will have no use for money?? Your example curiously excludes money altogether assuming that the residue is made up only of the commodities produced in any given stewardship.

I have no idea if there will be money as a 'medium of exchange'. If the 'residue' is at the Store House, then people can simply pull up their conveyance and stock up on what they need and want. I don't imagine anyone will take more than needed since everyone is Happy doing what their particular Stewardship entails and 'things' aren't necessary to create the illusion of Happiness. People are Content with the outcome of their own Work and Appreciative of the Work of Others. No Competition.

Again, you are assuming a perfect world, "everyone is Happy", and all people are living under the law of consecration are 100% righteous, which cannot be the case until after the Church has been cleansed and Christ has returned to reign during the millenium. My thoughts are that UNTIL THEN, we will not all be 100% righteous (or "pure in heart"). Some will be 99% pure in heart, others 80%, and others perhaps 60% (just throwing numbers out there; who knows I do not intend to setup a rating system). But again, INEQUALITY will exist. Immediately after the millenium, we are told that Satan will be released from his chain and prison (he will be held by righteousness) to tempt again.

[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20:1-10

Therefore, the great and final battle, at the end of the millenium, implies that some of those living during the millenium under Christ's rule, will turn against Him. Just as the Nephites of old did a couple hundred years after His visit to America. Thus, 100% pure in heart will again not be possible.

Besides, you never answered my question directly buffalo_girl: IS INEQUALITY INHERENTLY EVIL?? My point has remained that is it not. Inequality will exist everywhere and anytime. You must admit that INEQUALITY is part of the Lord's plan? Or else where would we find the downtrodden to lift up, the neglected to love, or the weak to strengthen (or vice versa, us being in the receiving end of this logic)??? We need each other, whether we need help from others to lift us up or if we are those in a position to lift others up. This inequality will exist, as it has in premortality, mortality, and throughout all eternity (even in the Celestial Kingdom!). There is no way around it.

So, IS INEQUALITY INHERENTLY EVIL??

So, IS INEQUALITY INHERENTLY EVIL??

HOW do YOU define INEQUALITY? I'm not clear on my understanding of YOUR definition.

I see every individual as unique. Each individual has a POTENTIAL to which he can aspire. SOME will be blessed with one gift or another; SOME will have the opportunity of being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ; SOME will NOT be given that opportunity in mortality, but will in the Eternities. EACH will do the best he can in his own progression through mortality and the eternities.

A FEW will no doubt choose to follow lucifer in mortality. EACH will have the moral agency to make that CHOICE. EACH has an equal opportunity in process of time and eternity to fulfill his POTENTIAL. SOME will; SOME will not!

We are ALL born NAKED into mortality, and ALL will leave mortality without a stick of furniture or a pile of gold.

I am NOT in the position to judge whether or not another individual is SUPERIOR, INFERIOR, or EQUAL to me.

I don't believe the Church will just wake up one day and find themselves to be "pure in heart."

I DO!! And, it doesn't necessarily have to happen after the Millennium or after the end of the Millennium.

Doctrine & Covenants 38
22 Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?

23 But, verily I say unto you, teach one another according to the office wherewith I have appointed you;

24 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me.

25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am ajust?

27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

4 Nephi
2 And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

15 And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.

16And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.

17There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

Jarom, verse 11
...look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was.

We can prepare for the Second Coming by becoming the Sons and Daughters of Christ NOW - NOT in the future. NOW!

buffalo_girl wrote:

Teancum wrote:So, IS INEQUALITY INHERENTLY EVIL??

HOW do YOU define INEQUALITY? You have defined it for me below. I'm not clear on my understanding of YOUR definition.

I see every individual as unique. Each individual has a POTENTIAL to which he can aspire. SOME will be blessed with one gift or another; SOME will have the opportunity of being taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ; SOME will NOT be given that opportunity in mortality, but will in the Eternities. EACH will do the best he can in his own progression through mortality and the eternities. You have described INEQUALITY perfectly. We agree! :ymparty:

A FEW will no doubt choose to follow lucifer in mortality. EACH will have the moral agency to make that CHOICE. EACH has an equal opportunity in process of time and eternity to fulfill his POTENTIAL. SOME will; SOME will not! Once again, you have described INEQUALITY perfectly. We agree! :ymparty:

We are ALL born NAKED into mortality, and ALL will leave mortality without a stick of furniture or a pile of gold. All of us are DEFINITELY born NAKED into mortality. On this single point I guess you can say we are all EQUAL. AGREED. The way we leave mortality THOUGH is UNEQUAL since some go from mortality to immortality in a twinkling of an eye.

I am NOT in the position to judge whether or not another individual is SUPERIOR, INFERIOR, or EQUAL to me. Are you implying that I am judging by merely stating that we never were nor ever will be perfectly EQUAL?

I don't believe the Church will just wake up one day and find themselves to be "pure in heart."

I DO!! And, it doesn't necessarily have to happen after the Millennium or after the end of the Millennium. I must disagree. It takes FAITH in Jesus Christ and individual WORK to become "pure in heart." No one can do this for us. God will not do it for us. We will not wake up one day to find ourselves suddenly "pure in heart." Impossible. It's not in the Lord's plan. This doesn't imply that I don't appreciate your scriptures. They are still true.

Doctrine & Covenants 38
22 Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?

23 But, verily I say unto you, teach one another according to the office wherewith I have appointed you;

24 And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me.

25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am ajust?

27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

4 Nephi
2 And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

15 And it came to pass that there was no contention in the land, because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.

16And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.

17There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

Jarom, verse 11
...look forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come as though he already was.

We can prepare for the Second Coming by becoming the Sons and Daughters of Christ NOW - NOT in the future. NOW! :ymapplause: Right on buffalo_girl! No disagreement here!

So... what are we debating again?? Oh that's right, I believe you have a problem with my statement: INEQUALITY IS NOT INHERENTLY EVIL. You have proven this for me right at the beginning of your last post! INEQUALITY IS HERE TO STAY, FOR ETERNITY. Does that mean we can sit idly by and watch others suffer while we sit on our thrones watching them? I never stated such as thing. We are commanded to lift other up to higher planes. We will be held accountable for not doing so! I believe we are in perfect agreement on this. ALL I HAVE suggested is that INEQUALITY IS NOT INHERENTLY EVIL. And you have proven this statement correct.

I will now quit this debate. If we still cannot agree, then it must be that our communicating via this forum is simply preventing us from seeing eye to eye. From the way I see it, we are in agreement. INEQUALITY will always exist and is only evil (not INHERENTLY evil) if we do nothing to help lift others higher!

I agree, Equality of Opportunity is possible through Christ overcoming the curse of Adam.

But despite of Christ's Atonement, Equality of result depends upon our agency. Some will still bring forth 20-fold, 50-fold and 100-fold.

That said, our responsibility is to maintain a system that preserves equality of opportunity. And it is our responsibility to share our 100-fold excess.

Socialism is evil. Handouts robs the takers of their dignity and robs the potential givers of the opportunity to give. Socialism can never be equal because a system that forcefully takes from the rich and gives to the poor must be enforced. And because Socialism must be enforced, there must be enforcers. Thus there must alway be a ruling/enforcing class in a Socialist system. Socialism creates 3 classes (Enforcement class, Midddle Class, Poor Class). The poor class never seem to be able to lift themselves out of poverty when receiving faceless handouts. But if the giving and receiving were done on a more personal level, the Poor would be more likely to lift themselves out of poverty and return to productivity.