Skousen: "a conspiracy-mongering extremist"?

[bobhenstra]

Steve commented,
Sometimes I wish I had taught at UVU -- they did invite me to give a major talk there in 2006 as some of you may recall. Wonderful reception. Good people in general.

W. Cleon Skousen invited me to speak at his home in October 2005 -- about my research on 9/11 and the fall of WTC 7. I think Brian M. was also there. Right after my talk, I asked Dr. Skousen this question -- should I just stick to the physics of my 9/11 research, or should I include the "political implications" also? It was a tough question for me. He said I really could not separate the 9/11 research from implications regarding who was involved, and urged me to include discussion of the implications. Dr Skousen was very supportive of my 9/11 work and talk. Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony regarding the inaction of Dick Cheney, the lack of air defenses that day which implicated Cheney directly, became one of my major themes, which continues to this day.

I don't think UVU would EVER have given an honorary PhD to Dick Cheney as BYU did in 2007.
BYU's action here should never be forgotten. They continue to invite leading CFR people to speak and be honored on campus... Cheney, Brzezinski, coming up, quoting from a BYU site:

I think we should study the 8th chapter of Helaman better, lots of pondering and prayer! President Monson knows whats happening at BYU, if "he" had a problem with it he could stop it, he hasn't! There must be a darn good reason why!

I think we keep ourselves informed, prepared and follow the example of our prophet!

Bob

[Silas]

How much direct influence over BYU does President Monson have? I would imagine that he mostly lets the school run itself while he is busy running the church. They can give awards to whomever they want and I wouldn't expect President Monson to say much of anything about it. That doesn't mean that he supports everything they do just that he has more important things to take care of. I am sure that if he did want to make a comment on anything he could but it seems he is more interested in doing things like building temples, spreading missionary work throughout the world and other such things.

[creator]

W. Cleon Skousen invited me to speak at his home in October 2005 -- about my research on 9/11 and the fall of WTC 7. I think Brian M. was also there.

Yes, I was there... just want to remark that It's unfortunate that Dr. Skousen's son-in-law Glenn Kimber wasn't at that meeting when Dr. Jones spoke... Kimber talks as if he and Skousen saw eye-to-eye on everything yet my experience hearing from both of them has revealed otherwise, Skousen was much more of a paleo-conservative, whereas Kimber leans towards being a neo-Conservative (specifically on the war and foreign policy issues). Those were the days when I was much newer to all of this, it was good to be able to learn so much from Cleon Skousen, and I very much appreciate all the things he taught about Secret Combinations during those classes at this home.

You might be interested in the notes I posted from those meetings with W. Cleon Skousen: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[creator]

How much direct influence over BYU does President Monson have? I would imagine that he mostly lets the school run itself while he is busy running the church.

If it's the same as Pres. McKay's days, probably not a whole lot of influence... or perhaps the truth is more so that the Pres. of the church simply allows the agency of those who administrate BYU... while encouraging them to do the right thing. I read a letter that Pres. McKay wrote to the BYU President at the time, Ernest Wilkinson, basically encouraging him to rid BYU of the socialist influences there, it was pretty damning in regards to some of the liberal professors there and other things happening at the school. Unfortunately BYU did not move towards the ideals Pres. McKay was encouraging. I will attempt to get a copy of that letter posted here. There's another more mild letter that can be found here.

I mention these Pres. McKay letters because I think it's revealing in regards to the influence of the Pres. of the Church over BYU... (i.e. suggesting things that never came to fruition because of the wickedness of the members) at least it reveals that they take a role of encouraging and not much of a direct role in the school.

[Teancum-Old]

How much direct influence over BYU does President Monson have? I would imagine that he mostly lets the school run itself while he is busy running the church.

If it's the same as Pres. McKay's days, probably not a whole lot of influence... or perhaps the truth is more so that the Pres. of the church simply allows the agency of those who administrate BYU... while encouraging them to do the right thing. I read a letter that Pres. McKay wrote to the BYU President at the time, Ernest Wilkinson, basically encouraging him to rid BYU of the socialist influences there, it was pretty damning in regards to some of the liberal professors there and other things happening at the school. Unfortunately BYU did not move towards the ideals Pres. McKay was encouraging. I will attempt to get a copy of that letter posted here. There's another more mild letter that can be found here.

I mention these Pres. McKay letters because I think it's revealing in regards to the influence of the Pres. of the Church over BYU... (i.e. suggesting things that never came to fruition because of the wickedness of the members) at least it reveals that they take a role of encouraging and not much of a direct role in the school.

Brian: That letter really shows how the president of the Church may encourage but has no real direct role in the Church. President McKay uses the phrase "I hope" several times in the letter with regard to keeping BYU practices in agreement to LDS standards.

Regarding the damning letter about liberal professors at BYU, please do post. It would be an absolute gem in this discussion and aid in further validating Skousen's writings/teachings.

[buffalo_girl]

I mention these Pres. McKay letters because I think it's revealing in regards to the influence of the Pres. of the Church over BYU... (i.e. suggesting things that never came to fruition because of the wickedness of the members) at least it reveals that they take a role of encouraging and not much of a direct role in the school.

That sounds right to me, Brian.

Unfortunately, as we discover here on the Freedom Forum - when we discuss the 'business' model of globalism Conservative thinkers sometimes tend to equate corporatism with pure capitalism.

Globalism is viewed as a benign method of creating equality of trade throughout the earth rather than being colonialism/fascism on meth - which it is.

Maybe, BYU has become too big for its britches.

[natasha]

Interesting. I read the letter that Brian referred us to in his post above and did, in no way, get that the problems he mentioned were prevelant or at BYU at all. To me, it was a loving and caring letter about trends that the Brethren had seen in the country and probably worldwide, and in wisdom were bringing the possibility of potential difficulties to BYU's attention. Others may read it and get something else from it, which obviously a few have. I for one saw nothing condemning in it, nor did I get the idea that the Brethren who make up the school's general board have no say in what goes on.

[Teancum-Old]

Interesting. I read the letter that Brian referred us to in his post above and did, in no way, get that the problems he mentioned were prevelant or at BYU at all. To me, it was a loving and caring letter about trends that the Brethren had seen in the country and probably worldwide, and in wisdom were bringing the possibility of potential difficulties to BYU's attention. Others may read it and get something else from it, which obviously a few have. I for one saw nothing condemning in it, nor did I get the idea that the Brethren who make up the school's general board have no say in what goes on.

I agree. This letter is not condemning at all. Yet Pres. McKay did feel the need to advise the head of the school appropriately on these matters. This is the mild letter Brian was talking about. Brian mentioned letter that he recalls being condemning towards BYU. This one he hopes to post soon. I would like to read that one.

I read a letter that Pres. McKay wrote to the BYU President at the time, Ernest Wilkinson, basically encouraging him to rid BYU of the socialist influences there, it was pretty damning in regards to some of the liberal professors there and other things happening at the school. Unfortunately BYU did not move towards the ideals Pres. McKay was encouraging. I will attempt to get a copy of that letter posted here. There's another more mild letter that can be found here.

[creator]

Interesting. I read the letter that Brian referred us to in his post above and did, in no way, get that the problems he mentioned were prevelant or at BYU at all.

Like has been mentioned, it was the other letter that was condemning... but if you've read both letters you'd see the relation of the more mild letter to the other one... I'll do what I can to find that letter, in the meantime, here are the notes I wrote when that letter was read to me by the person in possession of it (this was at a meeting at W. Cleon Skousen's home):

...he read a letter to us that President David O. McKay (Church President) sent to President Ernest Wilkenson (BYU President)... the letter revealed, at least in those days, that everything going on at BYU is not always known about, or approved by the Prophet and the Twelve. I don't have the letter but I did write down a few excerpts as he was reading it...

"Up to this time I do not feel that Brigham Young University has..." "Unless they are supporting the Church in..." "I fear some of our fine Latter-day Saint scholars..." "I therefore desire that a number of policies..."

Unfortunately I didn't write down much, I was writing that in hopes of being able to find the letter online, or to reference it later, I'll see if I can get a copy of it. Basically it was a reprimand towards what some of the BYU faculty were doing/teaching that goes against the principles of the gospel.

[Silas]

I remember having a conversation with a BYU student a few years ago who said she was a big fan of socialism, at the time I was less familiar with some of the exact teachings of the prophets about socialism, or I would have directed her to them. I was however familiar enough with the gospel to know that the two are not compatible. She didn't seem to understand why there was anything wrong with supporting socialism and in fact was quite upset that so few members of the church were able to understand how great socialism really is. After some talking she did admit that the law of consecration could not be practiced in a socialist state, but that didn't seem to bother her much.

[Teancum-Old]

In my copy of Verlan Andersen's "Moral Basis of a Free Society," the introduction is given by his son (same name but Jr.). Up until this thread on this forum, this history formed the basis of my concern for the lack of education BYU seems to be providing on our sacred Constitution, its divine history, and the form of government is institutes. What follows is a short excerpt that many of you may already be familiar with:

As a professor in the accounting department, Daddy taught Business Law at BYU for many years. His students were primarily upper division business and accounting majors at BYU, which meant that in most instances they were returned missionaries. My reason for making this observation is that the following explanation by him of the test he gave his students should be of concern for all freedom-loving Americans.
- Hans V. Andersen, Jr
As a college law teacher, I have made it a practice over the years to give a questionnaire to my students on the first day of class in which they were asked to respond to a number of questions regarding their acceptance or rejection of the proposals contained in the Ten Points of the Communist Manifesto. Of course I did not inform them that they were registering opinions about Communism and the questionnaire revealed that very few had ever read the Communist Manifesto. Their responses were therefore presumably not colored by any anti-communist bias. The results of the poll might be surprising to some. They revealed that on the average, my students were approximately two-thirds communist in their political beliefs. That is, on an average, they accepted about two-thirds of the Communist program for socializing a capitalist nation. Doubtless, much of the explanation for this apparent discrepancy lies in the fact that people are generally ignorant about Communist practices and methods. They do not realize that the political beliefs they are espousing will lead to the same loss of liberty in America as in Russia. (H. Verlan Andersen, Speech on Socialism, 10/8/79) The Moral Basis of a Free Society
Copyright ©1995 by Hans V. Andersen, Jr
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Scaaarryyy! Thus my worry about sending kids to school there. If Brian can come up with that letter from Pres McKay to the BYU president, that will only give me concrete evidence to justify my concerns.

[Silas]

It seems like the point that is making isn't that BYU teaches socialism but that people even in the church are blindly accepting it. Which is probably happening all over not just at the Y.

[HeirofNumenor]

It seems like the point that is making isn't that BYU teaches socialism but that people even in the church are blindly accepting it. Which is probably happening all over not just at the Y.

That would be correct, even if tempered with so-call GOP conservatism. Most in society (in and out of the LDS Church), and accepting the ways of the world, and the philosophies of men - whether or not they are mingled with scripture.

[natasha]

Interesting. I read the letter that Brian referred us to in his post above and did, in no way, get that the problems he mentioned were prevelant or at BYU at all.

Like has been mentioned, it was the other letter that was condemning... but if you've read both letters you'd see the relation of the more mild letter to the other one... I'll do what I can to find that letter, in the meantime, here are the notes I wrote when that letter was read to me by the person in possession of it (this was at a meeting at W. Cleon Skousen's home):

...he read a letter to us that President David O. McKay (Church President) sent to President Ernest Wilkenson (BYU President)... the letter revealed, at least in those days, that everything going on at BYU is not always known about, or approved by the Prophet and the Twelve. I don't have the letter but I did write down a few excerpts as he was reading it...

"Up to this time I do not feel that Brigham Young University has..." "Unless they are supporting the Church in..." "I fear some of our fine Latter-day Saint scholars..." "I therefore desire that a number of policies..."

Unfortunately I didn't write down much, I was writing that in hopes of being able to find the letter online, or to reference it later, I'll see if I can get a copy of it. Basically it was a reprimand towards what some of the BYU faculty were doing/teaching that goes against the principles of the gospel.

I was a student at BYU when Ernest Wilkenson was President. One of the concerns the Brethren had at that time (1958-61) was the social units on campus. Social units were the equivalent of fraternities and sororities on other universities campuses. I belonged to one and must admit in all honesty, they had gotten a little out of hand with "hell week", etc. One of the twelve conducted a meeting with all social unit presidents and at that point they were disbanded. Interestingly enough, at our meeting where our president told us about the Brethrens decision...everyone was in agreement and felt good about the decision. So, I'm wondering, if and when you find that letter Brian, if perhaps some of Pres. McKays concerns were about this.

[Teancum-Old]

It seems like the point that is making isn't that BYU teaches socialism but that people even in the church are blindly accepting it. Which is probably happening all over not just at the Y.

That would be correct, even if tempered with so-call GOP conservatism. Most in society (in and out of the LDS Church), and accepting the ways of the world, and the philosophies of men - whether or not they are mingled with scripture.

Correct. Socialism is everywhere today and most don't even realize it (like the GOP and members of the Church). But I tend to be a bit harder on members of the Church, and BYU, for propagating such -isms (knowingly or unknowingly) because we, as a Church, should know better than too be conned by Satan after rejecting his plan in premortality. The rest of the world (non-LDS) are ignorant of the war in heaven dating back to Lucifer and his evil plan. Again, we, as a Church should know better. We have no real excuse.

[buffalo_girl]

I was a student at BYU when Ernest Wilkenson was President. One of the concerns the Brethren had at that time (1958-61) was the social units on campus. Social units were the equivalent of fraternities and sororities on other universities campuses. I belonged to one and must admit in all honesty, they had gotten a little out of hand with "hell week", etc. One of the twelve conducted a meeting with all social unit presidents and at that point they were disbanded. Interestingly enough, at our meeting where our president told us about the Brethrens decision...everyone was in agreement and felt good about the decision. So, I'm wondering, if and when you find that letter Brian, if perhaps some of Pres. McKays concerns were about this.

"Social units were the equivalent of fraternities and sororities on other universities campuses."

So, that's the BYU definition of Socialism?! What would we call Yale's Skull & Bones 'social unit'?

Fascinating!

[edzachary]

How much direct influence over BYU does President Monson have? I would imagine that he mostly lets the school run itself while he is busy running the church.

If it's the same as Pres. McKay's days, probably not a whole lot of influence... or perhaps the truth is more so that the Pres. of the church simply allows the agency of those who administrate BYU... while encouraging them to do the right thing. I read a letter that Pres. McKay wrote to the BYU President at the time, Ernest Wilkinson, basically encouraging him to rid BYU of the socialist influences there, it was pretty damning in regards to some of the liberal professors there and other things happening at the school. Unfortunately BYU did not move towards the ideals Pres. McKay was encouraging. I will attempt to get a copy of that letter posted here. There's another more mild letter that can be found here.

I mention these Pres. McKay letters because I think it's revealing in regards to the influence of the Pres. of the Church over BYU... (i.e. suggesting things that never came to fruition because of the wickedness of the members) at least it reveals that they take a role of encouraging and not much of a direct role in the school.

Brian: That letter really shows how the president of the Church may encourage but has no real direct role in the Church. President McKay uses the phrase "I hope" several times in the letter with regard to keeping BYU practices in agreement to LDS standards.

Regarding the damning letter about liberal professors at BYU, please do post. It would be an absolute gem in this discussion and aid in further validating Skousen's writings/teachings.

What would make this curious to me especially is that David O. McKay was an educator by trade and BYU is an academic institution. Any word on this letter?

[HeirofNumenor]

deleted (modified below)

[HeirofNumenor]

"Social units were the equivalent of fraternities and sororities on other universities campuses."

So, that's the BYU definition of Socialism?! What would we call Yale's Skull & Bones 'social unit'?

Fascinating!

He was referring to the Greek fraternity system
when I was at BYU in 85-92, the Church/school leadership was concerned about these fraternities/sororities "social clubs" because they were considered exclusionary, snobbish, and the did things like hazing, rating girls that walked by with 0-10 scorecards, and coed Jello/spaghetti wrestling (different incidents -mostly all off campus).

They got quickly banned after that. Not sure if they've been allowed back since.


The BYU groups were very tame compared to what happened at Greek fraternities and sororities at schools such as San Diego State University, Georgia Tech, and others.

Skull and Bones is in a whole other league, far above these gentile frats (bad as they are) as to levels of wickedness - whether it occurred as students, or expectations of things to come once they have reached positions of power.

[bbrown]

Cleon Skousen is very taboo in at least most of my stake. A couple years ago we had a CES missionary up here who was a brilliant teacher, and extremely knowledgeable, but very anti-Skousen. He said one of the 12 told him the best thing you could do with one of Skousen's books is throw it away. I don't know which of the 12 he was talking about, and never had a chance to ask him as he spent most of his time in the Stake center several hundred miles from here. Some of my good friends who are as awake to and aware of secret combinations etc, as any one here, will not go near a book or even speak of him since then. I even forwarded Brian's letter to them, but it did no good, I got comments like "oh Pres Monson was just being nice". Is CES that rabid against him? Is there some reason for this that anyone knows, other than the earlier comments above about jealousy?

[edzachary]

Cleon Skousen is very taboo in at least most of my stake. A couple years ago we had a CES missionary up here who was a brilliant teacher, and extremely knowledgeable, but very anti-Skousen. He said one of the 12 told him the best thing you could do with one of Skousen's books is throw it away. I don't know which of the 12 he was talking about, and never had a chance to ask him as he spent most of his time in the Stake center several hundred miles from here. Some of my good friends who are as awake to and aware of secret combinations etc, as any one here, will not go near a book or even speak of him since then.

By their works ye shall know them. I've known Skousen more from his gospel works than from his constitutional writings, though I'm familiar with them now. I've seen little to take issue with. I cannot imagine why anyone, Apostle or not, would say such a thing about him.

[HeirofNumenor]

I don't believe any general authority, let alone an apostle would say such a thing...on the other hand, anyone from BYU is VERY Likely for the reasons I listed above [Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:55 pm ] :ymsigh:

[Teancum-Old]

Cleon Skousen is very taboo in at least most of my stake. A couple years ago we had a CES missionary up here who was a brilliant teacher, and extremely knowledgeable, but very anti-Skousen. He said one of the 12 told him the best thing you could do with one of Skousen's books is throw it away. I don't know which of the 12 he was talking about, and never had a chance to ask him as he spent most of his time in the Stake center several hundred miles from here. Some of my good friends who are as awake to and aware of secret combinations etc, as any one here, will not go near a book or even speak of him since then. I even forwarded Brian's letter to them, but it did no good, I got comments like "oh Pres Monson was just being nice". Is CES that rabid against him? Is there some reason for this that anyone knows, other than the earlier comments above about jealousy?

Interesting. Seem to back up what I have experienced (but not quite so stark), which was the whole reason for starting this thread.

BrianM: Have you found a copy of the condemning McKay letter to BYU??

[Rincon]

Removed

[Istand4truth]

I love reading Cleon Skousen's books. I have learned so much about our country and about the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have supplied my life with good fruits. By their fruits ye shall know them.

I have been edified, enlightened and inspired by the fruits of Cleon Skousen. I care not what others say about him.

If you have a question about his fruits then research them and read them for yourself.

I know where I stand and it doesn't matter to me what others say.