LDS Freedom Forum

Carlos wrote:I began to read the scrolls starting with this:
.......Palmoni scroll (black print), my comment (red print).....

The Problems with this chronology (1000 year seals begin at 4000 bc)

Mummy wrote: That's Archbishop Usher's time line as used by Talmage and myriad others.

Carlos wrote: 1. No account of Adams time before the fall.
2. The seal dates begin at the Fall of Adam when he was cast out of the garden into the world and not Adams birth. The seals are defined in DC77 as 7 thousand years of the earth’s “temporal existence”. "Temporal existence" begins with the fall. Adams existence before the fall is inconsequential with regard to the seals. Why points 1 and 2?

Mummy wrote: But if your focus is on going through the scriptures and creating a precise time line.....time still existed before the fall and is calculated in the age of Adam when he died.

Carlos wrote: 3. If these seal dates are correct (i.e. Jesus was born at the beginning of the fifth seal) then the Millennium is now in progress (2000 to 3000 ad),
4. Since the Millennium did not begin in 2000 ad with the coming of Christ... this projected model is incorrect. The seventh millennium does not begin with the coming of Christ as implied in point 4. DC 77:12 clearly states that the trumpets of the 7th seal announce events designed to “sanctify” the earth before his coming. The 7th millennium could be in progress as world events appear to be setting the stage for a major cleansing.

Mummy wrote: Just a comment stating there are holes in Archbishop Usher's time line - not exactly room there to spell it all out from point A to Z as you seem to desire....yet you aren't willing to put forth the effort to study the whole enchilada. Like judging the Book of Mormon off of one verse.

Carlos wrote: 5. There is also the little season which is not taken into account. The little season in Rev 20:3 is 140 years when Satan is loosed a “little season”. ???

Mummy wrote: Read Jacob Chapter 5 with emphasis on time line.

Carlos wrote: 6. In the Church, we know that the Mission of Jesus Christ takes place in the Meridian of Time, which is within the fourth seal (1000 bc to 1 ad) and not in the 5th seal (Moses 7:45-46). If meridian means the “middle”, as this point suggests, then Christ should have come 3500 yrs after the fall of Adam (7000/2 i.e. 500 bc). The 4th seal includes 500 bc, this fact does not make the 4th seal equal to the “meridian of time”. The logic here is lacking if the definition of meridian is the middle. On the other hand, meridian is a point or line of measurement or reference. In this definition, Christ birth certainly marks the apex of time, no matter when he was born, his birth is the high point of creation for all those who lived before and after. We measure time using his birth as the meridian.

Mummy wrote: Again just pointing out the error in Archbishop Usher's time line. Middle as in middle seal - 4th seal. Again you are judging an entire piece of work off one sentence - to each their own though!

Carlos wrote: 7. John, in Rev 8:12-13, hears the fifth angel (Moroni) coming to sound his trump. John doesn’t hear the 5th trump until Rev 9:1. John was on this earth on Patmos in 96 ad, still in the forth seal because “three angels are yet to sound”. So we know that Christ lived and died in seal 4. In Rev 9, 11, John continues to hear the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets in 96 ad on Patmos. John was recording a vision of the future, not real time. It is a real stretch to use this as proof that Christ lived in the 4th seal.

Mummy wrote:Again this is taking one little statement without full understanding of the scope of what is being said. For more on this particular insight see:
Scroll 8 - http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69426/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Scroll 4 - http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69530/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Carlos wrote:
At this point I decided not to pursue an in depth study of the elaborate scrolls.

To each their own! I had a co-worker make a similar decision after reading the cover page of the Book of Mormon.

7cylon7 wrote:The gipapan scrolls are wrong too. Close but wrong.

Please point out the errors....

see palomoni scroll thread I just answered the same question. Also i did a full post on denial's time line for a full description of the time line.

You only have to know Daniel and the date the commandment went forth to establish Jerusalem. It's almost too easy.

Carlos wrote:Items 1-7 in black are quotes from the scroll. The red comments are mine. The stretch comment applies only to item 7.

I am pointing out that I am not satisfied with the logic and interpretation of the scroll. The scrolls are impressive structurally, but are based on assumptions which have holes. Items 1 thru 7, case in point.

The scroll quotes in my post come from the beginning of this scroll:

http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69419/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is, Why should I embark on the study of a massive work, when my first peak into it is unsatisfactory? Also, the scrolls seem to be organized like a maze. It would be nice if someone would just decipher them and plainly express their message in moderate detail.

Got it, thanks for the clarification. And I agree with your last sentence about moderate detail.

7cylon7 wrote:see palomoni scroll thread I just answered the same question. Also i did a full post on denial's time line for a full description of the time line.

You only have to know Daniel and the date the commandment went forth to establish Jerusalem. It's almost too easy.

Unless one has learning disabilities. So please lay it out. I love studying signs of the times but my understanding capabilities are limited because of recent health issues that have hampered my reasoning powers. I get confused with days, years, weeks, jubilees and all related stuff in scripture and trying to make sense of it all in order to make my own time line chart. Especially when events appear to overlap. Forget it!

Appendage: I searched around the forum and found a lot of your posts dealing with this topic, so I'll try to piece it all together. I've been told that this stuff isn't going to make or break one's salvation; this may be true, but it is interesting nonetheless. How close we are to the Savior is what we need to be concerned with for salvation. Also, it don't think it matters who is right or who is wrong. Everybody has something to present according to their views. It's up to us to sluff it off or believe it. I can glean from a lot of posts, which is part of the reason I got on this forum in the first place.

Tell me, what is Talmage's (views, writings, etc.) concerning this topic? I saw his name mentioned a couple of times.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [1 day = 1000 yrs]

Doctrine and Covenants 77:7 Q. What are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed? A. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years, and the second also of the second thousand years, and so on until the seventh. [ 1 Seal = 1000 yrs]

"Now 2,000 years have come and gone since His birth in Bethlehem. Surely, this is a time for remembrance and recommitment." -April 2, 2000, General Conference, Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley. [Christ born 1 BC and 7th Seal Open in 2000]

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [1/2 hour = 20.8 years = 2000 + 20 = 2020]

Gen 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. [120 Jubilee's or 120 x 50 = 6000 yrs, Exodus at 50 Jubilee's or a Jubilee of Jubilee's]


Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. [Christ will return in the 120th Jubilee = the Lord's Jubilee]

Possible Recent Jubilee Years:
70 AD Destruction of the Temple (Another fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks)
1820 First Vision, End of Spanish Inquisition "Time of Restitution of All things"
1870 EDICT OF POPE NICHOLAS III, ending of the Roman Ghettos.
1920 Prohibition, League of Nations begins, Protocols of Zion published, Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate for Palestine confirmed by League of Nations.
1950 "Law of Return" or the Commandment or Law set forth that called for the Gathering of Jews to Israel granting any converted or native Jew citizenship. (Beginning of another of Daniel's 70 weeks).
1970 End of War of Attrition following 6-days war.
2020 The Lord's Jubilee? "Time of Restitution of All things"

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: [Don't bother trying to figure out Jewish Calendar because they didn't keep the Jubilee Consistently (see Bible Dictionary)]

Isaiah 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
[eye-to-eye = 20/20?]

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [Weeks = "Shabua" = 7 or Feast of Weeks. 70 Shabuiym = 70 x 7, or 490 years or 70 Feast of Weeks = 70 years]


Matt 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. [ISRAEL = FIG TREE NATION, "LAW OF RETURN" 1950 + 70 = 2020]


Pres. George A Smith Vision/ Pres. Obama Loses 2012 Election Timeline
2011
----- Collapse of dollar, Chicago riots, martial law, gun confiscation, civil war
2012
----- Obama loses election, Russian nuke attack (start of tribulation)
2013
==== WW3 ending in Armageddon, 2 Witnesses
2016
----- Many claim Christ delayeth his coming, Christian persecution (abomination)
2017
==== Adam-ondi-Ahman, New Jerusalem, 144,000 sent to gather survivors to Zion or Jerusalem
2020 Wrath and Second Coming

Denver Airport Murals Pointing to 2012 Tribulation
The best vision of the Last Days is the George A. Smith Vision. i believe this vision is authentic.
We have several sources for it that are consistent. And it goes along with the murals at the Denver Airport and a leaked map from Russia on how the US will be divided after invasion.

http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/images/ ... states.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the divided states)
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/image ... enver4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (the Mayan Codex the mayan girl is holding is in the shape of RUSSIA. Notice the fire circling the city)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yh93vawma_Q/S ... tablet.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(close-up of Mayan Codex and shape of RUSSIA)
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/images ... /obama.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Obama in front of mural depicting the destruction of America) [this is not photoshopped as a young Obama's arm is resting on a railing in front of the mural.]

Cleansing and Dividing of America
http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/images/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... states.jpg (the divided states)

Doctrine and Covenants 112:25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; [tribulation begins at home]

3 Nephi 20:16 (3 Nephi 21:12) Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. [Lamanites fight with Russia and China]

http://www.fortliberty.org/wp-content/u ... -on-me.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [Rattlesnake = America]
http://www.traditional-mexican-culture. ... lpaper.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [Eagle killing the rattle snake]

3 Ne 7:2 And the people were divided one against another; and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends; and thus they did destroy the government of the land. [Nephites separate into tribes]

Daniel 7:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. [After America (goat) defeats Iraq and Iran (ram), America will be broken and divided into 4]

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [Beast (Red Russia and China) destroy and devour the Harlot (Anglo-American Alliance)]

http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures ... -12?slop=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Chinese Vacant "Ghost Cities" readied as Prison Cities]


Pres. George A Smith Vision/ Pres. Obama Loses 2012 Election Timeline
2011 Comet Leonid Elenin sign, temple announced (1833 Leonids a sign to clear LDS from MO)
----- Collapse of dollar, Chicago riots, martial law, gun confiscation, civil war
2012 false flag event, Iran War
----- Obama loses election, Russian nuke attack (start of tribulation)
2013
==== WW3 ending in Armageddon, 2 Witnesses
2016
----- Many claim Christ delayeth his coming, Christian persecution (abomination), Christ appears in Jerusalem, Cleansing of the temple
2017
==== Adam-ondi-Ahman, New Jerusalem, 144,000 sent to gather survivors to Zion or Jerusalem
2020 Wrath and Second Coming

Mayan calendar.......dec 21, 2012?

Songbird wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:The Dollar will be dead by end of 2012... I have also heard by the end of 2011 we will really be hurting meaning the beginning of the collapse of the dollar will begin.

Where did you hear/see this? Can you provide backup?

I'm not sure what source 7cyclon7 is talking about, but I happened to be listening to Alex Jones yesterday, where Lindsey Williams just about guaranteed the dollar will be dead by end of 2012.

I happen to agree with Joel Skousen on this, that it will take more years than that, but you never know - so many events could trigger so many reactions. The value of the dollar is only subjective now. Objectively, it was dead the moment its backing was removed.

iamse7en wrote:

Songbird wrote:

7cylon7 wrote:The Dollar will be dead by end of 2012... I have also heard by the end of 2011 we will really be hurting meaning the beginning of the collapse of the dollar will begin.

Where did you hear/see this? Can you provide backup?

I'm not sure what source 7cyclon7 is talking about, but I happened to be listening to Alex Jones yesterday, where Lindsey Williams just about guaranteed the dollar will be dead by end of 2012.

I happen to agree with Joel Skousen on this, that it will take more years than that, but you never know - so many events could trigger so many reactions. The value of the dollar is only subjective now. Objectively, it was dead the moment its backing was removed.

FYI - the dollar is backed by IOUs and to my knowledge those IOUs are still in effect and will be enforced!

Of course that will be the real test - can they enforce the IOUs???? Hence the purpose of the alphabet soup (CIA, FBI, NORTHCOM, TSA, NSA, DHS, etc). Time will tell the story....

What the US has been exchanging these IOUs for is real assets, land, and mineral rights.

We are buying bric-a-brac from China, and exchanging it for mining rights for oil and gold. Also, the hottest new market is a derivatives market trading farm land.

We have traded our inheritance for a mess of pottage.

davedan wrote:What the US has been exchanging these IOUs for is real assets, land, and mineral rights.

We are buying bric-a-brac from China, and exchanging it for mining rights for oil and gold. Also, the hottest new market is a derivatives market trading farm land.

We have traded our inheritance for a mess of pottage.

....homeless on the land our forefathers conquered...