LDS Freedom Forum

I could see 2040 as the about the time of the Big One.

The baby-boomers will be gone and all that money that went into their retirement will once again flood the federal government. That means plenty of money for all the welfare cases. People will believe we're over the hurdle and start demanding their 'governmental rights' again. And they'll find politicians eager to obtain their vote.

Technology will be much more advanced and so many more people will be dependent on it. Communication and transportation will be super fast. Storage capacity will also be advanced. Who needs paper books when you've got the knowledge of the entire human family in your home quantum computer?

And a new generation will reach adulthood that knows nothing about respecting authority, hardship, or charity. Each generation believes the generation before it lacks understanding in respect, hardship, and charity. Imagine how bad they'll be in 30 years?

You combine these three factors during a economic, political, and technological collaspe, and you're looking at some serious chaos! Good times!

and Obama is out there encouraging American youth to emulate the people of Egypt...get on Facebook, twitter, et al. and get engaged...hmmmm I wonder to what end? :ymdevil:

7cylon7 wrote:

HeirofNumenor wrote:and Dubai, UAE? Is that planned, spin, or spill-over?

ALLLLLL PLANNED people.... Back in 1776 they had no control yet but every single war, revolution, coup d'ta, overthrow including England, Russia, Spain, France, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq ect..... all have been planed by TPTB. This is no different. They are so good at this that they make it look natural but there is nothing natural about it.

This is a black ops operation. The PTB had their cells start the trouble. They get the mob started and once started they direct the mobs.

7. He next advocated the use of ‘Mob Psychology’ to obtain control of the masses. He
reasoned that the might of the Mob is blind, senseless, and unreasoning and ever at the mercy of
suggestion from any side. He stated “Only a despotic ruler can rule the Mob efficiently because
without absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilization which was carried out NOT
by the masses, but by their guide, whosoever that person might be.” He warned “The moment
the Mob seizes FREEDOM in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy.”


14. He next explained the necessity of having their ‘Agentur’ always come out into the open,
and appear on the scene, when conditions had reached their lowest ebb, and the masses had been
subjugated by means of want and terror. He pointed out that when it was time to restore order
they should do it in such a way that the victims would believe they had been the prey of
criminals and irresponsibles. He said “By executing the criminals and lunatics after they have
carried out our preconceived ‘reign of terror’, we can make ourselves appear as the saviours of
the oppressed, and the champions of the workers.” The speaker then added “We are interested
in just the opposite ... in the diminution, the killing out of the Goyim.”

And a really scarey tactic they use

15. He next explained how industrial depressions and financial panics could be brought about
and used to serve their purpose saying “Enforced unemployment and hunger, imposed on the
masses because of the power we have to create shortages of food, will create the right of
Capital to rule more surely than it was given to the real aristocracy, and by the legal authority
of Kings.” He claimed that by having their agentur control the ‘Mob’, the ‘Mob’ could then be
used to wipe out all who dared to stand in their way.

Now they don't control everyone like Iraq 1 he went rouge and took out Kuwait but how long did that last. TPTB took him out in a very short time. So yes they don't control everything but they can direct world forces to in the end meet their goal. WORLD CONQUEST.

I haven't read this yet...Hot off the press from G. Edward Griffin:

Here is an excellent analysis of "Which Path to Persia," a strategy paper prepared by the Brookings Institute, which is a think tank funded by mega-corporations within the orbit of the CFR. Everything that is happening in the Middle East is in accordance with this plan, developed in 2009. If you want to know what will happen next, read this. All major decision were made long ago.

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/bro ... th-to.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iamse7en wrote:

davedan wrote:Considering the Milton Musser Letter, and Pres. George A Smith Vision I don't see that we have much time left.

Where's the best info on this George A. Smith Vision? I found this, but I dont' see anything in there about dollar devaluation. Please share!

Col. Flagg wrote:I was just wondering what all the other financial experts' opinions are here in the forum regarding how much longer we have before 'government' begins to confiscate 401k, retirement funds and even precious metals under the guise of 'national security' in order to prevent an outright default by the feds and disintegration of the dollar and to also bail itself out and give them even more time before the system implodes? My wife and I have a 401k and I'm 60-40 for cashing it out and taking the penalty, but part of me feels like if I do, the ponzi scheme artists and criminals in Washington, the 'Fed' and Wall Street will manage to continue this financial facade and charade for another 10+ years. Joel Skousen was on Liberty Roundtable this morning and virtually said as much - that these con men and fraudsters in Washington know how to control everything from inflation to deflation to artificial wealth creation to wealth destruction without everything unraveling and it was his opinion that they can keep inflation under control and the system from imploding for many more years by just tweeking it slowly the way they are. Anybody else beg to differ?

Really, an excellent question. I also tend to concur with Joel Skousen. He has made the point that our situation is different than Weimar and Zimbabwe because of currency reserve status, and the amount of dollars spread throughout the whole world. That will make the coming calamities even worse and more extensive than Weimar/Zim, but it also suggests it will take a longer time. I don't see signs of an immediate currency collapse. I still think we have quite a few years (10 or so) - but as others have said, simple events can trigger cataclysmic events, so my advice is hedge your bets - diversify. Rather than have all in food storage, or all in silver, or all in gold, or all in your 401k, spread it throughout. Perhaps take out half of your 401k, take those losses, and put it into silver and long-term food storage.

I also have a predicament. Unfortunately I only began working full-time and saving money a short while ago (now I'm revealing my age ). I would like some advice as well. I really should talk to someone, but you guys will have some good advice as well. Obviously, I have been purchasing silver monthly, the months have been fairly tight, but my question is about my 401k - my employer will match up to 6% of my pre-tax contributions. E.g. if I put like $300 in my 401k, my employer also puts in $300, so I always have twice as much in my 401k than I put in... I am so wary about this. I decided to contribute to the max (6%) and I can actually transfer all the money into a brokerage account with Schwabs, where I can buy precious metals ETFs and metals mutual funds. The goal is to have it rise with or more than inflation. I cannot use that money to buy precious metals directly. I COULD not contribute to my 401k and take the after-tax money and just buy silver, but aren't I leaving money on the table - because I lose the matching contributions from my employer? Or, is it not worth it all, because those funds will become worthless before I can take them out? I plan on leaving this employer in a couple years to go back to school (I know, that's risky too), and when I leave, I believe I can roll it all over into a IRA... maybe I can somehow get it into a precious metals IRA? Not sure how these things work exactly. They keep it complicated for a reason. What would you guys suggest I do? Much thanks.

I don't give advice, I can only tell you what I have done, and what I believe.

I have completely stopped all contribution to my 401(k) and have maxed the loan allowed against it. I also only keep monthly operating funds in the bank (i.e. enough to write that month's checks against.)

I personally avoid precious metals ETFs like the plague. If I have a good grasp of what is going on in the ComEx (and I only know what I read and the opinions that I tend to agree with, I am certainly no experienced trader) then right now the battle that is being waged will either expose ETFs as a complete fraud and their value goes to zero while actual metal goes to infinity, OR at best it keeps parity with the metal. So the advantages of the ETF is you have something easy to trade, tiny or no premium over "spot" price, and it is something your IRA can invest in. (I think there may be IRAs that actually buy and store metal, but again - can you access it? (No) and do you trust them to really deliver (?) But with the ETFs I PERSONALLY feel that you have a huge chance of being left holding the bag and those funds going belly up (i.e. they don;t really have the metal to back up the paper ETF.) So for me, the advantages of ETFs don't balance against what I consider to be sizable risks.

I would say the most critical thing you can do is learn a trade. I mean something that is real production. Carpentry. Plumbing. Electrical. Agriculture. Medical. I would say the closer you can hone those skills to very basic human needs, the better off you will be, especially if they help you provide for yourself in an off the grid situation.

Get out of debt. all debt. I stupidly always felt like home debt was justifiable and "smart". It wasn't and isn't. I would live in your Mom's basement if that is an option if it kept you debt free.

Food storage and a years supply of essentials.

I don't want to believe that things will go "Mad Max" but if you have all of the above, guns and ammo are a good idea in my opinion. In fact, for myself this would be higher on the list than this.

Capital investments - Tools/equipment and the expertise to use them and maintain them. Physical possession of commodities, PMs are good, but if you have the room, 5000 lbs of wheat could double in value in a year, or it could 10 times in value or be priceless. Again, not advice per se, this is how I see things. You have to make your own plan, prayerfully decide what the Lord wants of you and do it.

Thanks for you thoughts, OI.

Col. Flagg wrote:I was just wondering what all the other financial experts' opinions are here in the forum regarding how much longer we have before 'government' begins to confiscate 401k, retirement funds and even precious metals under the guise of 'national security' in order to prevent an outright default by the feds and disintegration of the dollar and to also bail itself out and give them even more time before the system implodes? My wife and I have a 401k and I'm 60-40 for cashing it out and taking the penalty, but part of me feels like if I do, the ponzi scheme artists and criminals in Washington, the 'Fed' and Wall Street will manage to continue this financial facade and charade for another 10+ years. Joel Skousen was on Liberty Roundtable this morning and virtually said as much - that these con men and fraudsters in Washington know how to control everything from inflation to deflation to artificial wealth creation to wealth destruction without everything unraveling and it was his opinion that they can keep inflation under control and the system from imploding for many more years by just tweeking it slowly the way they are. Anybody else beg to differ?

Since I have a soft spot in my heart for you Col. I will post this web site especially dedicated to you. I am sure you will enjoy it. The giant Ponzi is about to unravel. Sbsion and Dennis are going to celebrate this with a giant food storage and Kefir brunch. RU READY????


http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/1 ... PSIM273/PR" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yea Mark.............thanks.............yup................btw, did you get the "mighty change" yet, we need that to enjoy our food storage...oooh, I'm not a Kefir person, I'll go with HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTT salsa

Original_Intent wrote:I would say the most critical thing you can do is learn a trade. I mean something that is real production. Carpentry. Plumbing. Electrical. Agriculture. Medical. I would say the closer you can hone those skills to very basic human needs, the better off you will be, especially if they help you provide for yourself in an off the grid situation.

Get out of debt. all debt. I stupidly always felt like home debt was justifiable and "smart". It wasn't and isn't. I would live in your Mom's basement if that is an option if it kept you debt free.

Food storage and a years supply of essentials.

I don't want to believe that things will go "Mad Max" but if you have all of the above, guns and ammo are a good idea in my opinion. In fact, for myself this would be higher on the list than this.

Capital investments - Tools/equipment and the expertise to use them and maintain them. Physical possession of commodities, PMs are good, but if you have the room, 5000 lbs of wheat could double in value in a year, or it could 10 times in value or be priceless. Again, not advice per se, this is how I see things. You have to make your own plan, prayerfully decide what the Lord wants of you and do it.

Amen!

Spirituality, food, water, shelter, debt free, skills, medical needs, debt free (following prophetic counsel), means of production (value added contribution - being in good physical shape is included here....what can you contribute in a society based on production again???? Can you at least provide for yourself and your immediate family? Especially if your previous profession was based solely on profiting from the rules of the previous system - lawyer, tax accountant, etc). Protection (particularly if the force is not strong with you - that should immediately move to higher priority).

Mark wrote:Since I have a soft spot in my heart for you Col. I will post this web site especially dedicated to you. I am sure you will enjoy it. The giant Ponzi is about to unravel. Sbsion and Dennis are going to celebrate this with a giant food storage and Kefir brunch. RU READY????

Or in the alternative, we could all dine on shark while treading water with Mark above his favorite beach, and Mitt Romney’s large and spacious building.

Mitt Romney’s large and spacious building

And what might that building be?

His house in Southern Cal, soon to be underwater.... when the big one hits, post economic meltdown.

Mummy wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:

Rincon wrote:On the positive side, we still don't know exactly what the Lord is going to do. He may hold a trump card.

I think we are to understand that HE, Christ, will not give the Saints any more than they can handle. Only He knows who the true followers are because they are numbered. I just hope I'm on the list, even if I'm the last number on it.

If 2017 is the end, and if 2013 is midrange, then 2010 was the beginning of the seven year tribulation where for three and a half years there is peace, the second three and a half years, all H... breaks out. Are we ready?

What does it say in scripture about the righteous being caught up to meet the Savior? Is this done prior to Him standing on Mt Sinai?

Or if its 2015....then end of 2011 is turning point and mid 2008 was the beginning point....

When I wrote the proposed timeline I forgot about the half-hour of piece...21 years..., or whatever its called, upon the opening of the seventh seal. Also, Tribunal made mention of the year 2040 as to when the Savior comes.

Would someone be so kind as to list events as we understand them up to the time the Savior comes? Some people contend that the seventh seal has already been opened. Whether it has or not, I don't know. However, there has to be a 21 year (half-hour) of silence before the end, right?

Something else to consider, if 2017...give or take a year or two... is when the Savior comes then we are in the seven year tribulation and the seventh seal would have been opened around 1993.

Wouldn't the first three and a half years of tribulation be included as the very last three and a half years of the 21 year silence? I chose 1993 because when you add these figures...1993 + 21 (silence) + 3 1/2 (war and destruction) = 2017

If 2040 were the time of the Savior's return then...2040 minus 3 1/2 (war and destruction) minus 21 years of silence = 2016 (seventh seal opened) 2016 is the year given by some that ends the 120 Jubilees.

freedomfighter wrote:

Mummy wrote:

freedomfighter wrote: I think we are to understand that HE, Christ, will not give the Saints any more than they can handle. Only He knows who the true followers are because they are numbered. I just hope I'm on the list, even if I'm the last number on it.

If 2017 is the end, and if 2013 is midrange, then 2010 was the beginning of the seven year tribulation where for three and a half years there is peace, the second three and a half years, all H... breaks out. Are we ready?

What does it say in scripture about the righteous being caught up to meet the Savior? Is this done prior to Him standing on Mt Sinai?

Or if its 2015....then end of 2011 is turning point and mid 2008 was the beginning point....

When I wrote the proposed timeline I forgot about the half-hour of piece...21 years..., or whatever its called, upon the opening of the seventh seal. Also, Tribunal made mention of the year 2040 as to when the Savior comes.

Would someone be so kind as to list events as we understand them up to the time the Savior comes? Some people contend that the seventh seal has already been opened. Whether it has or not, I don't know. However, there has to be a 21 year (half-hour) of silence before the end, right?

Something else to consider, if 2017...give or take a year or two... is when the Savior comes then we are in the seven year tribulation and the seventh seal would have been opened around 1993.

Wouldn't the first three and a half years of tribulation be included as the very last three and a half years of the 21 year silence? I chose 1993 because when you add these figures...1993 + 21 (silence) + 3 1/2 (war and destruction) = 2017

If 2040 were the time of the Savior's return then...2040 minus 3 1/2 (war and destruction) minus 21 years of silence = 2016 (seventh seal opened) 2016 is the year given by some that ends the 120 Jubilees.

Well I reckon everyone and their cat and dog has an opinion on it along with some sort of time line in their heads. Some are more heavily weighted that others.

Some go off of pure speculation. Some go off of dreams. Some go off one statement or another by one of the brethren or Prophet. Some go off of formulas.

Some go off of others who have used all or some of the above.

As you state, one of the most popular for the 1/2 hour of silence that Bruce R McConkie and others have espoused as being 21 years based on the formula of 1000 of our years per day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:8, Abraham 3:4, Genesis 2:17.....1000/24/2=20.833333 years). But Bruce R McConkie had a tendency to give lots of opinion and had to insert foot many times....with the most widely known example being Blacks and the Priesthood.

If you try to apply that formula throughout the scriptures it gets real messy and absolutely impossible. This whole plan of salvation cycle gets wrapped up in a week.....so thousands of scriptures would be unfulfilled.

The other formula I am aware of is Ezekiel 4:6 where the Lord states that for prophetic utterance every day is actually a year.

I've come across a time line analysis utilizing that formula called the Palmoni Scrolls that imo are one of the best (if not the best) attempts at putting a time line together with one formula applied, checked, and verified across the board from the begging to the end......and I have yet to have someone point out any gaping holes in the logic or analysis - and I've shared them with multiple stake presidents and other scriptorians....and I also know they were shared with one General Authority although I have yet to hear if he studied them in detail and whether or not he had any issues with them. My goal at one point was to get them into the hands of Elder Packer who I understand has had a personal interest in time lines....but I have yet to accomplish that (despite him living a couple miles down the road - two stakes over) and have chilled out on it.

The dear anynomous (wants to remain that way and give away his decade plus of hard work for free) hardcharging gentleman has pegged the opening of the 7th seal in mid-2008.

Here's the grand doozy from beginning to end in detail -
http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69352/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beginning to end showing prophecies fulfilled using that formula -
http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69425/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And an analysis at how the conclusions on the time line are reached -
http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69419/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty more if you are interested here -
http://scripturalsecrets.blogspot.com/p/scrolls.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyways until I get further light and knowledge I'm pretty biased towards this time line fwiw to you....

Read Rev chapters 8-11 and 16 for the order of events.

right on mummy..........the thing is, it doesn't matter, what matters IS, how much time are we going to take, and how much time do we have left to be individually ready AT ANY TIME?

sbsion wrote:right on mummy..........the thing is, it doesn't matter, what matters IS, how much time are we going to take, and how much time do we have left to be individually ready AT ANY TIME?

Amen! I know I'm not ready....

Great stuff, Mummy.

Mummy,
Forgive my ignorance, but how do we read these? Is there something I need to download in order to see it? I mean I can see it, but it is minute, so I can't read it....

Songbird wrote:Mummy,
Forgive my ignorance, but how do we read these? Is there something I need to download in order to see it? I mean I can see it, but it is minute, so I can't read it....

Songbird, just click the little diagram on the left. The plus sign makes it bigger, the minus sign makes it smaller, and then you can use the little arrows to scroll around it, or click and drag it to see different aspects of the scrolls. I hope that helps.

Rand wrote:

Songbird wrote:Mummy,
Forgive my ignorance, but how do we read these? Is there something I need to download in order to see it? I mean I can see it, but it is minute, so I can't read it....

Songbird, just click the little diagram on the left. The plus sign makes it bigger, the minus sign makes it smaller, and then you can use the little arrows to scroll around it, or click and drag it to see different aspects of the scrolls. I hope that helps.

Should also be able to use the wheel on your mouse if you have one to scroll in and out....move around. Much like Google Earth if you have used that program before.

You can also download them from this website -
http://www.angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmon ... rolls.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....click the version, click particular scroll you are interested in, click download in right corner......that allows you to download a JPEG image that you then have to put into another program like Microsoft Publisher to print out in a viewable size. Also have to cut and tape all the sections together to get a complete scroll and the process will eat up about $300 in toner if you do it in color (recommended). Then after you've gone to the labor and expense of doing that......you have to take them over to the church and get all the tables out to get them all laid out so you can study them (try studying 35 ft of Appendix J at home on the living room table - takes up the entire stage at church).

Mummy wrote: I've come across a time line analysis utilizing that formula called the Palmoni Scrolls that imo are one of the best (if not the best) attempts at putting a time line together with one formula applied, checked, and verified across the board from the begging to the end......and I have yet to have someone point out any gaping holes in the logic or analysis - and I've shared them with multiple stake presidents and other scriptorians....and I also know they were shared with one General Authority although I have yet to hear if he studied them in detail and whether or not he had any issues with them. My goal at one point was to get them into the hands of Elder Packer who I understand has had a personal interest in time lines....but I have yet to accomplish that (despite him living a couple miles down the road - two stakes over) and have chilled out on it.

I began to read the scrolls starting with this:
.......Palmoni scroll (black print), my comment (red print).....

The Problems with this chronology (1000 year seals begin at 4000 bc)

1. No account of Adams time before the fall.
2. The seal dates begin at the Fall of Adam when he was cast out of the garden into the world and not Adams birth. The seals are defined in DC77 as 7 thousand years of the earth’s “temporal existence”. "Temporal existence" begins with the fall. Adams existence before the fall is inconsequential with regard to the seals. Why points 1 and 2?
3. If these seal dates are correct (i.e. Jesus was born at the beginning of the fifth seal) then the Millennium is now in progress (2000 to 3000 ad),
4. Since the Millennium did not begin in 2000 ad with the coming of Christ... this projected model is incorrect. The seventh millennium does not begin with the coming of Christ as implied in point 4. DC 77:12 clearly states that the trumpets of the 7th seal announce events designed to “sanctify” the earth before his coming. The 7th millennium could be in progress as world events appear to be setting the stage for a major cleansing.
5. There is also the little season which is not taken into account. The little season in Rev 20:3 is 140 years when Satan is loosed a “little season”. ???
6. In the Church, we know that the Mission of Jesus Christ takes place in the Meridian of Time, which is within the fourth seal (1000 bc to 1 ad) and not in the 5th seal (Moses 7:45-46). If meridian means the “middle”, as this point suggests, then Christ should have come 3500 yrs after the fall of Adam (7000/2 i.e. 500 bc). The 4th seal includes 500 bc, this fact does not make the 4th seal equal to the “meridian of time”. The logic here is lacking if the definition of meridian is the middle. On the other hand, meridian is a point or line of measurement or reference. In this definition, Christ birth certainly marks the apex of time, no matter when he was born, his birth is the high point of creation for all those who lived before and after. We measure time using his birth as the meridian.
7. John, in Rev 8:12-13, hears the fifth angel (Moroni) coming to sound his trump. John doesn’t hear the 5th trump until Rev 9:1. John was on this earth on Patmos in 96 ad, still in the forth seal because “three angels are yet to sound”. So we know that Christ lived and died in seal 4. In Rev 9, 11, John continues to hear the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets in 96 ad on Patmos. John was recording a vision of the future, not real time. It is a real stretch to use this as proof that Christ lived in the 4th seal.

At this point I decided not to pursue an in depth study of the elaborate scrolls.

Carlos wrote:

Mummy wrote: I've come across a time line analysis utilizing that formula called the Palmoni Scrolls that imo are one of the best (if not the best) attempts at putting a time line together with one formula applied, checked, and verified across the board from the begging to the end......and I have yet to have someone point out any gaping holes in the logic or analysis - and I've shared them with multiple stake presidents and other scriptorians....and I also know they were shared with one General Authority although I have yet to hear if he studied them in detail and whether or not he had any issues with them. My goal at one point was to get them into the hands of Elder Packer who I understand has had a personal interest in time lines....but I have yet to accomplish that (despite him living a couple miles down the road - two stakes over) and have chilled out on it.

I began to read the scrolls starting with this:

The Problems with this chronology (1000 year seals begin at 4000 bc)

1. No account of Adams time before the fall.
2. The seal dates begin at the Fall of Adam when he was cast out of the garden into the world and not Adams birth. The seals are defined in DC77 as 7 thousand years of the earth’s “temporal existence”. "Temporal existence" begins with the fall. Adams existence before the fall is inconsequential with regard to the seals. Why points 1 and 2?
3. If these seal dates are correct (i.e. Jesus was born at the beginning of the fifth seal) then the Millennium is now in progress (2000 to 3000 ad),
4. Since the Millennium did not begin in 2000 ad with the coming of Christ... this projected model is incorrect. The seventh millennium does not begin with the coming of Christ as implied in point 4. DC 77:12 clearly states that the trumpets of the 7th seal announce events designed to “sanctify” the earth before his coming. The 7th millennium could be in progress as world events appear to be setting the stage for a major cleansing.
5. There is also the little season which is not taken into account. The little season in Rev 20:3 is 140 years when Satan is loosed a “little season”. ???
6. In the Church, we know that the Mission of Jesus Christ takes place in the Meridian of Time, which is within the fourth seal (1000 bc to 1 ad) and not in the 5th seal (Moses 7:45-46). If meridian means the “middle”, as this point suggests, then Christ should have come 3500 yrs after the fall of Adam (7000/2 i.e. 500 bc). The 4th seal includes 500 bc, this fact does not make the 4th seal equal to the “meridian of time”. The logic here is lacking if the definition of meridian is the middle. On the other hand, meridian is a point or line of measurement or reference. In this definition, Christ birth certainly marks the apex of time, no matter when he was born, his birth is the high point of creation for all those who lived before and after. We measure time using his birth as the meridian.
7. John, in Rev 8:12-13, hears the fifth angel (Moroni) coming to sound his trump. John doesn’t hear the 5th trump until Rev 9:1. John was on this earth on Patmos in 96 ad, still in the forth seal because “three angels are yet to sound”. So we know that Christ lived and died in seal 4. In Rev 9, 11, John continues to hear the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets in 96 ad on Patmos. John was recording a vision of the future, not real time. It is a real stretch to use this as proof that Christ lived in the 4th seal.

At this point I decided not to pursue an in depth study of the elaborate scrolls.

Is it just me? I see a contradiction between item 6 and 7.

In 6 you say...In the Church, we know that the Mission of Jesus Christ takes place in the Meridian of Time, which is within the fourth seal (1000 bc to 1 ad) and not in the 5th seal.

In 7 you say...It is a real stretch to use this as proof that Christ lived in the 4th seal.

Please rectify.

Items 1-7 in black are quotes from the scroll. The red comments are mine. The stretch comment applies only to item 7.

I am pointing out that I am not satisfied with the logic and interpretation of the scroll. The scrolls are impressive structurally, but are based on assumptions which have holes. Items 1 thru 7, case in point.

The scroll quotes in my post come from the beginning of this scroll:

http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69419/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is, Why should I embark on the study of a massive work, when my first peak into it is unsatisfactory? Also, the scrolls seem to be organized like a maze. It would be nice if someone would just decipher them and plainly express their message in moderate detail.

Carlos wrote:Items 1-7 in black are quotes from the scroll. The red comments are mine. The stretch comment applies only to item 7.

I am pointing out that I am not satisfied with the logic and interpretation of the scroll. The scrolls are impressive structurally, but are based on assumptions which have holes. Items 1 thru 7, case in point.

The scroll quotes in my post come from the beginning of this scroll:

http://www.gigapan.org/gigapans/fullscreen/69419/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is, Why should I embark on the study of a massive work, when my first peak into it is unsatisfactory? Also, the scrolls seem to be organized like a maze. It would be nice if someone would just decipher them and plainly express their message in moderate detail.

That scroll is showing the authors work (analysis and logic) in moving from Archbishop Usher's time line (utilized by Talmage is most of his calculations - scriptural footnotes) to the dates utilized by the author.

The notes you point out are the contradictions the author is pointing out in Archbishop Usher's time line....not as you propose the dates used by the author.

You get out of it what you put into it - your comment can very easily be applied to Isaiah or Revelations or myriad other scriptures.

While Gigapan is an awesome technology that can allow shortcuts of labor....its not perfect in terms of capability to study.

I may do another showing at church one of these Saturday's......but the last time I did it only 2 people came - durangout and reese. Not that it was a waste of time as I got lots of time to study them more myself......but for setting up 30 tables across the gym and laying them out along with most of a Saturday dedicated.....I may not be so hasty to do it again.

The gipapan scrolls are wrong too. Close but wrong.