LDS Freedom Forum

I believe Thomas Jefferson discovered something about the ancient Germanic culture, how that culture establishes freedom and not only for the individual but also for his culture.

It all boils down to this; does our society promote and establish for itself not only freedom for the individual, but more importantly the culture and society of freedom?

Freedom for a culture and society begins with an acceptance of one mode of force and a rejection of the use of the other mode of force (D&C 121:37).

The one mode of force, that is accepted and promoted in the free society, is the force of the individual forcing himself to be good. The encouragement by the society to enter the free society, at the door, of accepting and placing himself under self-control with an aim for virtue.

The other mode of force, that must be rejected and kept at bay in the free society, is the force of any group or individual forcing another group or individual to live by the strictness of policy.

Acceptance or rejection of one or the other mode of force comes down to a fundamental question of where an individual or society acquires and operates by goodness.

Aristotle wrote that it is impossible for one man to explain to another man what virtue is, which is a lie. Because the way that one man teaches another man, what virtue is, is a simple statement made in the Book of Mormon time and time again. That statement includes the word LOOK. Jesus Christ is virtue and looking to him teaches us virtue. So, if one man tells another man to look to Jesus Christ then that man has instructed the other man in everything necessary for the acquisition of virtue. And the society, that instructs and encourages its people and groups of people to acquire virtue by the act of looking to Jesus Christ, that culture is by definition, the free culture.

God Bless,
Darren

thought provoking post Darren

can i ask how you feel about knowing TJ had both slaves and bed warmers? does that seem in contradition to his morals and espoused ethics?

AussieOi wrote:thought provoking post Darren

can i ask how you feel about knowing TJ had both slaves and bed warmers? does that seem in contradition to his morals and espoused ethics?

Thomas Jefferson was not a Puritan, he was a man of the world, of that late 1700s culture that he was beginning to reject.

Thomas Jefferson learned or copied much of what he put into the Constitution from his Puritan neighbors to the north. It is common to give Thomas Jefferson too much credit when his apparent genius obviously came from a long legacy of law and constitution living groups of people that predated him by hundreds or thousands of years.

I'm sure his acts of service to us and his nation have given him a place in heaven. But in life, he maintained many common corruptions, inherent in the culture of the Bank of England managed slave colonies.

When we stop worshiping Thomas Jefferson we begin to find the real source of where the Constitution came from.

God bless,
Darren

i like your last sentence there

can i ask if you are being too forgiving there?."I'm sure his acts of service to us and his nation have given him a place in heaven. "

2 points- our works dont save us, the atonement does (yes i know you know that) but we cannot neglect its not us that save ourselves by our works

AussieOi wrote:i like your last sentence there

can i ask if you are being too forgiving there?."I'm sure his acts of service to us and his nation have given him a place in heaven. "

2 points- our works dont save us, the atonement does (yes i know you know that) but we cannot neglect its not us that save ourselves by our works

Good point. I'm not the judge. But I am guessing that the judge will rule in his benefit.

I personally have discovered things that are satanic about some of the activities of Thomas Jefferson. But there again, I'm not the judge.

You need to remember that among patriot groups, it is an unpardonable sin to speak negatively of Thomas Jefferson. So I try to be positive about him and placate that mentality.

Many American patriots are so smug to believe that their Constitution is the only constitution of English-speaking people. They fail to see the common link in all cultures that are a continuation of the ancient free enterprise system and church. Americans will not save their Constitution until they embrace the bigger picture of what is a constitution.

The Constitution was not written to "limit government," in all English-speaking countries, constitutions are incorporation documents, incorporating a group of people into the continuation of that group, to operate by the principles and purposes of the free enterprise system.

God bless,
Darren

Darren wrote:

AussieOi wrote:i like your last sentence there

can i ask if you are being too forgiving there?."I'm sure his acts of service to us and his nation have given him a place in heaven. "

2 points- our works dont save us, the atonement does (yes i know you know that) but we cannot neglect its not us that save ourselves by our works

Good point. I'm not the judge. But I am guessing that the judge will rule in his benefit.

I personally have discovered things that are satanic about some of the activities of Thomas Jefferson. But there again, I'm not the judge.

You need to remember that among patriot groups, it is an unpardonable sin to speak negatively of Thomas Jefferson. So I try to be positive about him and placate that mentality.

Many American patriots are so smug to believe that their Constitution is the only constitution of English-speaking people. They fail to see the common link in all cultures that are a continuation of the ancient free enterprise system and church. Americans will not save their Constitution until they embrace the bigger picture of what is a constitution.

The Constitution was not written to "limit government," in all English-speaking countries, constitutions are incorporation documents, incorporating a group of people into the continuation of that group, to operate by the principles and purposes of the free enterprise system.

God bless,
Darren

but darren, if you are suggesting that they got this idea of a constitution and its contents from somewhere, shucks, that means, dang, that god isn't an american after all

whats this magna carta I've heard of?

Manx parliament. i still like that one. worlds longest continual (active) parliament. being xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, back as far as genealogical records show, is a point of pride that one. the other half xxxxxxxxxxxxxx comes in handy too

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks for contributing on my lonely little thread.

If you want to be read, just keep posting in the "popular" threads, like, "how soon until the end," "how to prepare mentally for polygamy" or "how do I make money without trying," or some other thread that is as far from freedom as can be imagined.

When Jesus Christ appeared to the Saxons in Saxland, and the fame of that visit spread throughout the Germanic and Scandinavian tribes of Israel. They were instructed to come to His temple on the north shore of Lake Law (Lake Mälaren). And there at Lake Law in Sweden he established His Church among the tribes of Israel in the north. At the beginning of this era of the Church being in the North Jesus Christ asked them at his temple to make a commitment to live by their mental sight affixed on Him. The word for that act of commitment has always been called Law or said another way Looking or Seeking. That commitment to live by Law at that first general conference of the Church, at their first meeting of the Band of those committing and living by the Law. That commitment as they all raised their arms to the square and covenanted to operate their lives by Law, IS THE WORLDS FIRST CONSTITUTION, The worlds first commitment to collectively live by the Law.

All constitutions, across the world are a continuation of this pratice of incorporation of groups of people to organize and live by the Law.

God Bless,
Darren

Interesting that Jefferson spoke against going into debt on many ocassions, but then died with himself being in massive debt. He spent most of this moeny on Monticello his home. The founding fathers were not perfect, but we have to remember they did not have the gift of the holy ghost like we do. We need to cut them a little slack on thier personal failings. They did the job they were sent here to do and that job was to establish a free nation that could serve as the headquarters for the latter day work and kingdom of Christ.

Aussie may think the founders get too much credit, but I say they did a tremendous job given everything that was stacked against them.

Was Jefferson one of the founders that appeared in the St George temple to have thier work done?

Cleon Skousen wrote in his book that the founders knew that they did not have a virtuous society, but believed that one day such a condition would come.

We have only ourselves to blame.

Lets keep the effort upon ourselves, to become the virtuous society that they had only hoped for.

Come with me to the basis of the free culture, that is where I am heading, and at least we will be approaching that virtuous society.

Leaving Babylon is seeing through the propaganda and going right. Virtue is Jesus Christ, and the virtuous society is encouraging and supporting going right.

Are we there yet, anyone.

God Bless,
Darren

Thomas Jefferson cited Algernon Sidney’s writings as one of the sources for the
“authority” of the Declaration of Independence. He endorsed Sidney's "Discourses Concerning
Government" as "a rich treasure of republican principles" and "probably the best elementary
book of the principles of government, as founded in natural right which has ever been
published in any language."1 In 1825, as "Father of the University of Virginia"2 and rector of
its Board of Visitors, Jefferson, together with James Madison, stated that "the general principles
of liberty and the rights of man, in nature and society" were to be found in Locke's "Second
Treatise" and in Sidney's "Discourses Concerning Government."3

1 Thomas Jefferson to John Trumbull, 18 January 1789, in "The Papers of Thomas Jefferson," ed. Julian P. Boyd
(Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1950), 14:467-68; Thomas Jefferson to Mason Locke Weems, 13 December
1804, in "Catalogue of the Library of Thomas Jefferson," ed. W. Millicent Sowbery (Washington, DC: Library of
Congress, 1953), 3:13.

2 Thomas Jefferson, "Epitaph," in "Writings," ed. Merrill D. Peterson (New York: Library of America, 1984), 706.

3 Thomas Jefferson, "Minutes of the Board of Visitors of the University of Virginia," 4 March 1825, in "Public and
Private Papers," (New York: Library of America, 1990), 153.

http://www.wjmi.org/PDFS/Sidney.pdf

I think his influences are well known and noted. But then one must question where men such as Locke and Sidney received them from...

quote
"The other mode of force, that must be rejected and kept at bay in the free society, is the force of any group or individual forcing another group or individual to live by the strictness of policy"

The key word in this statement is 'force'. Forcing others is the negative.

p51-mustang wrote:I

Aussie may think the founders get too much credit, but I say they did a tremendous job given everything that was stacked against them.

not at all. i dont deny them the credit. just suggest we can't laud them as people (morally) for their actions
Good Lord, Mao and Stalin achieved a lot, King David did too
these were flawed men
your founders aren't in that category of murderer or that flawed, all i am saying is one can't venerate them
like capttain moroni, many neglect to recognise that he was not a prophet.
a great man, who the doors of hell shook from fear we know, but not a prophet
similarly the founders are in my irrelevent opinion, venerated for patriotic benefit too often for mine
stop looking backward, go be the pioneer and trailbreaker and nation builder kind of thing, stop living in the past

as for the temple, god is forgiving clearly

Well said AussieOi

In Doctrine and Covenants 101:76-80 it talks about the constitution as the basis of the Constitution.

The small c constitution is the continuation of the basis of the free culture, enjoyed by all constitution loving people, in all countries.

The large C Constitution is the United States Constitution.

The problem with most American Patriot Constitutionalists is that they cannot tell the difference between the small c constitution and the large C Constitution, and have very little understanding of the pre-Constitution history, of constitution based countries and cultures.

As if the dark ages ended in 1787.

AussieOi, don't fight ignorance, just do your best to lift and teach.

God Bless,
Darren

Darren wrote:AussieOi, don't fight ignorance, just do your best to lift and teach.

God Bless,
Darren

cheers, and yo uto to yours and all over Christmas New Year

re your comment there, rest assured, the objective is being achieved here. i have others to thank for their witting and unwitting participation within

AussieOi wrote:

p51-mustang wrote:I

Aussie may think the founders get too much credit, but I say they did a tremendous job given everything that was stacked against them.

not at all. i dont deny them the credit. just suggest we can't laud them as people (morally) for their actions
Good Lord, Mao and Stalin achieved a lot, King David did too
these were flawed men
your founders aren't in that category of murderer or that flawed, all i am saying is one can't venerate them
like capttain moroni, many neglect to recognise that he was not a prophet.
a great man, who the doors of hell shook from fear we know, but not a prophet
similarly the founders are in my irrelevent opinion, venerated for patriotic benefit too often for mine
stop looking backward, go be the pioneer and trailbreaker and nation builder kind of thing, stop living in the past

as for the temple, god is forgiving clearly

I think we need to look to the founders for their wonderful example and for thier timeless wisdom. Aussie knows that the law will go forth from America in the millenium and that law will be based on the Constitution right? (not sure if small or big C) Its not looking back to study what the founders did and read thier teachings. They were far more brilliant than I so I look to them to try to understand those "Correct principles" they espoused. Personally I think we would all do a lot better if we looked to the founders a little more, not less. Our nation doesnt look to them any longer and this is why we are in such a mess.

Dont let your yankee hating ways go to far down the path. The Savior chose these men for a key mission in the latter days. Capt. Moroni was given a special veneration in the BOM despite not being a prophet. The founders did similarly great things as did the Captain. They deserve veneration too IMHO.

Aussie sounds like all my Canadian missionary companions always telling the american missionaries that americans are stupid, lazy, greedy, Canada is better than USA etc etc etc. All american products made in canada always have the word Canada after them (pizza hut-canada), almost like they have some sort of inferiority complex. Do Australians also have this inferiority complex? Yes, America is the evil empire now, but she started out good made, some progress and then started to head downhill.

Darren wrote:I believe Thomas Jefferson discovered something about the ancient Germanic culture, how that culture establishes freedom and not only for the individual but also for his culture.

It all boils down to this; does our society promote and establish for itself not only freedom for the individual, but more importantly the culture and society of freedom?

Freedom for a culture and society begins with an acceptance of one mode of force and a rejection of the use of the other mode of force (D&C 121:37).

The one mode of force, that is accepted and promoted in the free society, is the force of the individual forcing himself to be good. The encouragement by the society to enter the free society, at the door, of accepting and placing himself under self-control with an aim for virtue.

The other mode of force, that must be rejected and kept at bay in the free society, is the force of any group or individual forcing another group or individual to live by the strictness of policy.

Acceptance or rejection of one or the other mode of force comes down to a fundamental question of where an individual or society acquires and operates by goodness.

Aristotle wrote that it is impossible for one man to explain to another man what virtue is, which is a lie. Because the way that one man teaches another man, what virtue is, is a simple statement made in the Book of Mormon time and time again. That statement includes the word LOOK. Jesus Christ is virtue and looking to him teaches us virtue. So, if one man tells another man to look to Jesus Christ then that man has instructed the other man in everything necessary for the acquisition of virtue. And the society, that instructs and encourages its people and groups of people to acquire virtue by the act of looking to Jesus Christ, that culture is by definition, the free culture.

God Bless,
Darren

Darren, this is a tennent of the founders. They understood that only a moral people could keep the constitution and freedom alive in the nation. They took that one step further and taught that religion was an "indispensible" support to morality. As i have pondered freedom and the downturn of the nation and the world, i increasingly recognize that freedom dies when the people forget their God.. Who is Jesus Christ. And I dont mean just his prominent wellunderstood teachings, but wise application of his teachings. Such as "thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt covet". When we claim we love Christ and honor his commandments but we support socialist programs wherein money is stolen from one group of people and given to another, we repudiate Christ. Socialism breaks both the not stealing and not coveting commandments. First we covet anothers goods for our use and then we green light the govt stealing them for our benefit. Most Christians do not recognize how them supporting socialism violates Gods commandments, but in the end freedom is destroyed. We have to gain a deeper understanding of how the gospel applies to every aspect of our lives so that freedom can be sustained.

Aussie sounds like all my Canadian missionary companions always telling the american missionaries that americans are stupid, lazy, greedy, Canada is better than USA etc etc etc. All american products made in canada always have the word Canada after them (pizza hut-canada), almost like they have some sort of inferiority complex

Yes, it's true. I'll admit it. We Canadians do have an inferiority complex.

I don't agree with most of Rick Mercer's views, but there's some truth in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViS3TsqySbw

Here's another funny one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1yhp-_x7A



Hey, we look upon the war of 1812 with national pride. (I could be wrong, but I'm assuming most Americans at this point are going "huh? what's that?") C'mon, you gotta give us a little credit.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mercerrepor ... AeIydgtzlA

We all need a good laugh at ourselves every so often.

Ahhh.... let's all group hug. If you don't watch any of the others, at least watch this one (it's really cute): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz658-9ZOCc And then, come back to me and tell me who's the cutest.

All English speaking countries have a common heritage. The Anglos, the Saxons and the Jutes brought living by the culture of Law to England. At the temple of London and at the 4 Inns that feed into that temple, that serve that culture, is the place that formally the Freemen of London took their oaths, as their ancestors had done since before time immemorial in their temples in Scandinavia. Living by the inductive application of their lives centered upon the seeking of the oath keeping life.

That personal oath taken in the temple is the basis of the Freeman, and his Free Culture, and the Church of the Free Culture, called the Hansa in their Scriptures, is the Culture of the organization of those living by their oaths.

We do the same thing in our temple. But we are missing one thing. The Organization of Freemen being center to our culture. Instead we have adopted Babylonian Controls upon our culture.

In Scandinavia it was well known how the Greeks were taking over the world with top down controls, including the tyranny of the concept of Money and the tyranny of the "we are the smart ones" universities, that is an outgrowth of the Tyranny of the concepts that were improved upon by the Greeks from the Tower of Babel, of how to make a particular brand of babbling and the associated writing system a tool for establishing an empire.

The word constitution or Constitution is a Empire based word.

In our modern Scriptures, written in Babel's babbling words, the idea associated with the word constitution is the concept of the word Oath and Law. Constitution is nothing more than the purpose statement and by-laws of the Oaths made by the Church to live by looking to Christ, in all that they do, as we promise to do so at the sacrament table when we covenant to "always remember him."

The US Constitution is a bright spot in the history of constitutions. As are all of the Constitutions of each and every country also written in Babel's babbling words. So congratulations to all of you Constitution loving people, wherever you may live.

And with the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel being brought out of obscurity we no longer need to guess as to what are the best elements of the best Constitutions. All we need to do is to get back to the basis of the Free Culture and continue to be keeping that as the center of our lives.

Do you want to help save the US Constitution, then stand up for the original constitution put in place at Sigtuna Sweden at about 43 AD. Babylon self-destructs as it no longer has any prey to be a parasite to.

God Bless,
Darren