Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

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moonwhim
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Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by moonwhim »

Time For Christians To Shred Their Bibles
By Chuck Baldwin
December 16, 2010

Archived column:
http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=2579

Many of us grew up in Sunday School and church. We have heard the
great Bible stories over and over. We heard about the story of how
Moses’ mother defied Pharaoh and hid her little baby boy in
bulrushes. We heard the story of how Moses killed the Egyptian
taskmaster defending a Hebrew slave and later became the great
deliverer of God’s people. We heard the story of young David going
out alone against the Philistines’ greatest warrior, Goliath. We
heard the story of how Saul’s servants refused to carry out the
king’s order to murder the priest Ahimelech. We know well the story
of Daniel who defied his government’s order to refrain from praying.
The names Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are very familiar to us. We
heard our teachers and preachers extol their courage in defying the
government’s order to bow to the image of their emperor. We remember
that John the Baptist went to prison (and was eventually beheaded),
not for preaching the Gospel, but for criticizing the king for his
immoral behavior. We certainly recall the story of Simon Peter who
bluntly told his civil magistrates, “We ought to obey God rather
than men.” We know that the Apostle Paul wrote many of his epistles
from inside government prisons. We certainly recall that before John
penned the Revelation, he had been banished to an island-prison by his
civil authorities.

I challenge Christians to objectively look at the great stories of
Bible heroes (in both testaments) and observe how many times they are
noted for either being martyred for defying a civil authority, or,
perhaps, for being delivered from death for defying a civil authority.
The stories of defiance to civil government (in one form or another)
comprise a great percentage of all the stories contained in the
Bible--perhaps even a majority of them.

So, how has it happened that a majority of today’s Christians, it
seems, have become such sheepish slaves of government? How has it
happened that, for the most part, the concept of courage in the face
of government oppression has been totally lost to the average
Christian, pastor, and church? For all intents and purposes, it is
time for many Christians to shred their Bibles, because the lessons
and principles of God’s Word have absolutely no influence over their
attitudes and conduct.

For example, if the story of Peter in prison were being experienced
today, instead of the church rallying behind their pastor and
conducting an all-night prayer meeting for him, most church members
would be excoriating him in the name of Romans chapter 13. Instead of
Paul being let down the wall in a basket to escape the civil
authorities trying to apprehend him, the average Christian today would
be the first one to turn him over to the authorities.

In the mind of the average Christian, God is not God; government is
God! For instance, when one well-known Christian attorney was recently
confronted by the teaching of Scripture relative to the church’s
independence from government (meaning, no church should allow itself
to be subject to the government’s tyrannical 501(c)3 non-profit,
tax-exempt status), he said, “That might be Biblically correct, but
it is not legally correct.” In other words, the “Christian”
attorney would rather a church be legal than Biblical. And,
unfortunately, that seems to be the attitude of the vast majority of
professing Christians today. They would rather please the government
than please God; they would rather obey the government than obey God;
they would rather be at peace with the government than be at peace
with God.

And when it comes to the courage of risking anything of value in
order to do right, forget it!

Think of what Abram risked when he obeyed God and left his country
and kin and struck out for a land that God had not even told him of.
Think of what Moses risked when he killed that Egyptian; think of what
Joshua and Caleb risked when they defied the entire nation that was
following the evil counsel of the ten spies; think of what David
risked when he faced the giant; think of what Elijah risked when he
confronted 850 false prophets all by himself; think of what the Old
Testament prophets risked when they rebuked or challenged the kings of
Israel and Judah; think of what the disciples risked when they “left
all” and followed Jesus; think of what the early church risked when
it embraced the Gospel and defied the wishes of Rome and Jewry (not to
mention their own families and friends). But these stories are more
like fairy tales to the average Christian today. They serve no
practical benefit whatsoever!

Let a church deacon, trustee, or elder be told by some
government-backed attorney that he is really a corporate officer,
subject to the laws and punishments of IRS tax codes, and that church
leader will say anything, sign anything, or do anything to save his
own financial security. In order to not jeopardize his own standing
with the IRS, that same church leader would turn his back on his best
friend, or gladly join with the government in prosecuting a fellow
believer.

I personally know of more than one case where professing Christians
either lied against a beloved brother in order to protect themselves
against threatened government (read: IRS) penalties, or actually
testified for the prosecution (read: IRS) under oath in a court of law
against a Christian brother. In each case, these “brothers”
actually felt it was their “Christian duty” to betray their
friends and brothers and help the government.

I am reminded of the verse where Jesus said, “Yea, the time cometh,
that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.”
(John 16:2 KJV)

I am also reminded of the warning from the prophet Jeremiah when he
cautioned, “Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye
not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every
neighbour will walk with slanders. And they will deceive every one his
neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue
to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.” (Jeremiah
9:4,5 KJV)

Jeremiah’s prophecy is spot-on! Christians today cannot be trusted
to be faithful to the truth; they cannot be trusted to not betray and
turn against their brethren; they cannot be trusted to not be party
with slander and libel. If it means saving their own skin, or keeping
their bread buttered, or staying in the good graces of the IRS, they
would sell out their best friend--maybe even their own mother! And it
is no coincidence that Jeremiah, himself, experienced firsthand that
which he had spoken. It is no wonder he said, “Trust ye not any
brother.”

When will Christians get it through their heads (and in their hearts)
that oftentimes government is the enemy of God? When will they
understand that they have only one Sovereign: King Jesus? When will
they come to comprehend that helping government perpetrate unjust
action against fellow believers is a crime against Heaven? When will
they stop talking about the Bible and actually start internalizing its
teachings, examples, and principles?

It has gotten to the point today many unbelievers are far more
trustworthy than today’s Christians--especially when it comes to the
subject of resisting unjust government. It grieves me say that many
“Christian” attorneys, politicians, pastors, and church leaders
are merely shills and toadies for a government that has often become
both oppressive and illegitimate!

May God help us! He will have to, because we won’t get much help
from the vast majority of today’s professing Christians. That is for
sure!

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moonwhim
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by moonwhim »

Are there any in our latter-day scriptures?

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Mahonri
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mahonri »

moonwhim wrote:Are there any in our latter-day scriptures?
Abinidi
Alma
Samuel the Lamanite
Joseph Smith
Brigham Young
John Taylor
Wilford Woodruff
Lorenzo Snow
Joseph F. Smith
George Q. Cannon

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Original_Intent
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Original_Intent »

Chuck Baldwin is not LDS, you are clearly apostate.

Also, all of that Bible stuff is trumped by modern prophets. :lol:

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Mark
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mark »

Original_Intent wrote:Chuck Baldwin is not LDS, you are clearly apostate.

Also, all of that Bible stuff is trumped by modern prophets. :lol:

I noticed that somebody closed the other thread on defying civil authority so as the old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat. :lol: I know this is a difficult issue for many and strong feeling exist in following ones conscience when wrongs are observed. I think that is why our current prophets are so critical to our well being.

Obviously there are times in biblical history when good people defied civil authority and were blessed because of it. There are also times when the Lord has said as He did to the repentant Nephites to "agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison."

If the Lord wanted His Saints to openly defy civil authority I am sure that he would authorize those actions thru his living oracles and proper Priesthood channels. For now the oracles are telling the Saints to respect civil authority and use all means available under the law to right any wrongs that might exist.

For example the living oracles are telling us to pay our income taxes and use the courts to appeal or change any wrongs or objections that might exist. Those who chose to just defy those tax laws without authorization from civil authority are dealt with criminally and also receive censure from the church authorities. That includes a loss of temple privileges etc.

The Lord reveals his will thru his prophets. If ones sticks with their counsel and advice they will be protected from the pitfall and traps of the adversary. You are correct in saying that Chuck Baldwin is not a prophet OI. If Chuck as well meaning as he might be is saying that which is contrary to the living oracles I can tell you who I will be listening to and heeding. And it aint Chuck.

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Mahonri
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mahonri »

2 Thes 2:10-11because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

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Original_Intent
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Original_Intent »

Yes, Judas was just following his priesthood leader's counsel to respect civil authority when he turned in that rabbi who clearly did not know his proper place in society. The 30 pieces of silver was just a good citizenship bonus. I wonder why he hung himself - he must have been on Ritalin or something....

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Mahonri
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mahonri »

Original_Intent wrote:Yes, Judas was just following his priesthood leader's counsel to respect civil authority when he turned in that rabbi who clearly did not know his proper place in society. The 30 pieces of silver was just a good citizenship bonus. I wonder why he hung himself - he must have been on Ritalin or something....
"Dead Prophet" :lol:

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BroJones
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by BroJones »

Mark wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:Chuck Baldwin is not LDS, you are clearly apostate.

Also, all of that Bible stuff is trumped by modern prophets. :lol:

I noticed that somebody closed the other thread on defying civil authority so as the old saying goes there is more than one way to skin a cat. :lol: I know this is a difficult issue for many and strong feeling exist in following ones conscience when wrongs are observed. I think that is why our current prophets are so critical to our well being.

Obviously there are times in biblical history when good people defied civil authority and were blessed because of it. There are also times when the Lord has said as He did to the repentant Nephites to "agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art in the way with him, lest at any time he shall get thee, and thou shalt be cast into prison."

If the Lord wanted His Saints to openly defy civil authority I am sure that he would authorize those actions thru his living oracles and proper Priesthood channels. For now the oracles are telling the Saints to respect civil authority and use all means available under the law to right any wrongs that might exist.

For example the living oracles are telling us to pay our income taxes and use the courts to appeal or change any wrongs or objections that might exist. Those who chose to just defy those tax laws without authorization from civil authority are dealt with criminally and also receive censure from the church authorities. That includes a loss of temple privileges etc.

The Lord reveals his will thru his prophets. If ones sticks with their counsel and advice they will be protected from the pitfall and traps of the adversary. You are correct in saying that Chuck Baldwin is not a prophet OI. If Chuck as well meaning as he might be is saying that which is contrary to the living oracles I can tell you who I will be listening to and heeding. And it aint Chuck.

You say, "IF" Mark -- so are you saying that Chuck is out of line with the living oracles, or not??

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by dennis »

My line of thinking is: Gods law always trumphs Mans law. There is no scripture saying we should obey the law of the land and not keep the commandments. of God. This country was founded on the principle of rebellion against unrighteous civil authority. Any body ever heard of George Washington?

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Mark
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mark »

Instead of mocking my thoughts Mahonri and OI why not just tell me where I am going wrong here. Do our church leaders tell us to defy civil authority when we don't happen to agree or not?

I would be happy to have you show me where our current leadership has said it is alright to just defy civil authority on issues related to govt and law when you don't agree. I am hearing just the opposite from the Brethren so show me where I am going wrong here.

I noted the issue on taxes which are totally immoral and unjust to a lot of people including our friend CHH. It is common knowledge that the church will reprimand you if you are punish criminally by defying the IRS. Just show me the words of the current prophets that back up your assertions.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Original_Intent »

No we do not disobey civil authority just because we don't agree. This was one of the big straw men in the other thread. NO ONE proposed or supported that.

My position always was: The prophets have said obey the law of the land. Scriptural clarification of the 12th Article of Faith, as well as the words of the prophets, was always to support the constitutional law of the land, but you are not bound to support the unconstitutional law of the land (although it may or may not be prudent, depending on what price you are willing to pay, how onerous the unconstitutional law is, etc.) In other words we are NOT commanded to disobey unConstitutional laws, but we are also not commanded to obey them either.

UnConstitutional laws are not the law of the land.

We also believe that government derives its just powers from the citizens themselves. Citizen's cannot grant to government a power that they themselves cannot rightly exercise. The fact that our tax system has become a system of legalized plunder is set forth very clearly in Frederick Bastiat's The Law, which Ezra TAft Benson quoted from extensively when speaking on the proper role of government.

On the many quotes from past prophets that said we should NOT be subject to unconstitutional laws, the only response was that it was trumped by the living prophet. Request for exact quotes overturning the previous statements were never responded to.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

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Mark wrote:Instead of mocking my thoughts Mahonri and OI why not just tell me where I am going wrong here. Do our church leaders tell us to defy civil authority when we don't happen to agree or not?

I would be happy to have you show me where our current leadership has said it is alright to just defy civil authority on issues related to govt and law when you don't agree. I am hearing just the opposite from the Brethren so show me where I am going wrong here.

I noted the issue on taxes which are totally immoral and unjust to a lot of people including our friend CHH. It is common knowledge that the church will reprimand you if you are punish criminally by defying the IRS. Just show me the words of the current prophets that back up your assertions.
Our current leadership has not said to defy civl authority. Even the past prophets statements did not say defy so much as simply we are not bound to obey. There is a big difference between being defiant (looking for trouble) and ignoring. But on the other hand, the current leadership has also said nothing that contradicts the previous statements. They have never said "obey even unConstitutional laws." Barring such a statement, is it not appropriate to follow the more specific instruction of the previous leaders? In other words, should not the previous words stand until clearly stated otherwise by the current prophet?

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mahonri »

sorry Mark. My intent was not to mock you.

There has been a pattern set to help us understand eternal principles that have been followed by Prophets in every dispensation. When we start to reject the truth though, "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"

We must have the Spirit with us so we can understand the principles so we can apply them in our individual lives.

As an example: If we follow the "current council" of the Brethren, we will either have no food storage or 3 months because the leaders "don't talk about it" and the only specific reference in current literature is 3 months. If we just go after specific quotes and throw out anything that goes against those most current ones, will we really be prepared? Was every Prophet that gave longer dates just over doing it? If we have to be commanded in all things, will we really be worthy?

To reference another topic on this forum, the leaders aren't talking about being a part of the Church of the First Born, nor or they talking about getting our calling and election. Does that mean those things are now of no concern for us?

Let's follow eternal principles and not wait to be commanded in all things.

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by dennis »

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
What constitutes the bulwark of our own liberty and independence? It is not our frowning battlements, our bristling sea coasts, the guns of our war steamers, or the strength of our gallant and disciplined army. These are not our reliance against a resumption of tyranny in our fair land. All of them may be turned against our liberties, without making us stronger or weaker for the struggle. Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands, every where. Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.
That is the real issue. That is the issue that will continue in this country when these poor tongues of Judge Douglas and myself shall be silent. It is the eternal struggle between these two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. They are the two principles that have stood face to face from the beginning of time, and will ever continue to struggle. The one is the common right of humanity and the other the divine right of kings. It is the same principle in whatever shape it develops itself. It is the same spirit that says, 'You work and toil and earn bread, and I'll eat it.' No matter in what shape it comes, whether from the mouth of a king who seeks to bestride the people of his own nation and live by the fruit of their labor, or from one race of men as an apology for enslaving another race, it is the same tyrannical principle.
--October 15, 1858 Debate at Alton

Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

The plain and simple fact is that you can obey God's law or man's law, not both. Only when God's law is man's law can we be bound to obey secular authority, lest we choose the arm of flesh over God.

What many are saying here is that God established His perfect law for man and then told us not to listen to Him on the matter but instead to listen to those who pervert it.

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Mark
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mark »

Original_Intent wrote:No we do not disobey civil authority just because we don't agree. This was one of the big straw men in the other thread. NO ONE proposed or supported that.

My position always was: The prophets have said obey the law of the land. Scriptural clarification of the 12th Article of Faith, as well as the words of the prophets, was always to support the constitutional law of the land, but you are not bound to support the unconstitutional law of the land (although it may or may not be prudent, depending on what price you are willing to pay, how onerous the unconstitutional law is, etc.) In other words we are NOT commanded to disobey unConstitutional laws, but we are also not commanded to obey them either.

UnConstitutional laws are not the law of the land.

We also believe that government derives its just powers from the citizens themselves. Citizen's cannot grant to government a power that they themselves cannot rightly exercise. The fact that our tax system has become a system of legalized plunder is set forth very clearly in Frederick Bastiat's The Law, which Ezra TAft Benson quoted from extensively when speaking on the proper role of government.

On the many quotes from past prophets that said we should NOT be subject to unconstitutional laws, the only response was that it was trumped by the living prophet. Request for exact quotes overturning the previous statements were never responded to.

I appreciate the civil tone now OI & Mahonri. I think our discussions on the board would go a lot further if we choose to enlighten and not mock. I am a smart aleck at times and have stifled learning at times because of it. For that I need to repent and improve my tone.

I understand what you are saying about the difference between constitutional and unconstitutional laws but as has been discussed at length before by those like CHH and others who do a lot of study, many of our laws and ordinances are not constitutionally sound.

If I choose to disobey them I am prosecuted and in some cases thrown in jail. Then I lose my temple privileges and possibly even face disfellowshipment and loss of Priesthood blessings.

Now that confuses me if in fact what you are saying is true. If the Lord does not expect me to be subject to unconstitutional laws then why do I lose my membership opportunities and blessings if I go crosshairs against civil authority by bucking those laws and ordinances not constitutionally sound?

We in America have adopted many of the planks to the communist manifesto that are not constitutionally sound. Graduated income tax is but one of those planks. Yet I am forced to obey these tax laws or suffer church discipline because of it. It doesn't add up to me.

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Original_Intent »

Mark wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:No we do not disobey civil authority just because we don't agree. This was one of the big straw men in the other thread. NO ONE proposed or supported that.

My position always was: The prophets have said obey the law of the land. Scriptural clarification of the 12th Article of Faith, as well as the words of the prophets, was always to support the constitutional law of the land, but you are not bound to support the unconstitutional law of the land (although it may or may not be prudent, depending on what price you are willing to pay, how onerous the unconstitutional law is, etc.) In other words we are NOT commanded to disobey unConstitutional laws, but we are also not commanded to obey them either.

UnConstitutional laws are not the law of the land.

We also believe that government derives its just powers from the citizens themselves. Citizen's cannot grant to government a power that they themselves cannot rightly exercise. The fact that our tax system has become a system of legalized plunder is set forth very clearly in Frederick Bastiat's The Law, which Ezra TAft Benson quoted from extensively when speaking on the proper role of government.

On the many quotes from past prophets that said we should NOT be subject to unconstitutional laws, the only response was that it was trumped by the living prophet. Request for exact quotes overturning the previous statements were never responded to.

I appreciate the civil tone now OI & Mahonri. I think our discussions on the board would go a lot further if we choose to enlighten and not mock. I am a smart aleck at times and have stifled learning at times because of it. For that I need to repent and improve my tone.

I understand what you are saying about the difference between constitutional and unconstitutional laws but as has been discussed at length before by those like CHH and others who do a lot of study, many of our laws and ordinances are not constitutionally sound.

If I choose to disobey them I am prosecuted and in some cases thrown in jail. Then I lose my temple privileges and possibly even face disfellowshipment and loss of Priesthood blessings.

Now that confuses me if in fact what you are saying is true. If the Lord does not expect me to be subject to unconstitutional laws then why do I lose my membership opportunities and blessings if I go crosshairs against civil authority by bucking those laws and ordinances not constitutionally sound?

We in America have adopted many of the planks to the communist manifesto that are not constitutionally sound. Graduated income tax is but one of those planks. Yet I am forced to obey these tax laws or suffer church discipline because of it. It doesn't add up to me.
Again, I think this is where some confusion crept into the other thread. I at least am not saying it is our DUTY to disobey - what I am saying is that this is where, at least for me personally, personal revelation and wisdom are key.

Now for example - if Childhood protective services got fed some bad info, and they come for my kids, I am going to try to deal with it calmly and I will discuss the "problem" as long as they will. But if for whatever reason THEY decided that we had talked enough and they were taking my kids and that was that...well barring getting a very strong indication from the spirit to do otherwise, things are going to get ugly. And if the church, who says that the family is the foundation stone upon which society is built, feels that the response to this is to take some official action, lose temple privileges, or say amen to my priesthood, then so be it. However, I don't think that would be the case. And i would never NEVER expect the church to come out wiht some official position that I had done the right thing and that the membership worldwide should act accordingly. But I do believe that they would respect that I was obeying a higher law and did not stand in need of any church discipline, but they WOULD probably also take the position that I needed to pay any civil penalties that my actions warranted. I think those civil penalties would be unjust, but I would accept them.

And I don;t expect you to agree with me. If you do, great. If not, that's fine too.

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Mahonri
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Mahonri »

Mark wrote:
I appreciate the civil tone now OI & Mahonri. I think our discussions on the board would go a lot further if we choose to enlighten and not mock. I am a smart aleck at times and have stifled learning at times because of it. For that I need to repent and improve my tone.

I understand what you are saying about the difference between constitutional and unconstitutional laws but as has been discussed at length before by those like CHH and others who do a lot of study, many of our laws and ordinances are not constitutionally sound.

If I choose to disobey them I am prosecuted and in some cases thrown in jail. Then I lose my temple privileges and possibly even face disfellowshipment and loss of Priesthood blessings.

Now that confuses me if in fact what you are saying is true. If the Lord does not expect me to be subject to unconstitutional laws then why do I lose my membership opportunities and blessings if I go crosshairs against civil authority by bucking those laws and ordinances not constitutionally sound?

We in America have adopted many of the planks to the communist manifesto that are not constitutionally sound. Graduated income tax is but one of those planks. Yet I am forced to obey these tax laws or suffer church discipline because of it. It doesn't add up to me.
Thanks Mark. I will try as well. I hope my clinical nature will not be taken personally by anyone.

I don't think we should automatically disobey laws willy nilly. However when a law of God, like not worshiping false God's for a scriptural example, becomes illegal. there are times where we must stand for what is right, now matter what.

Helmuth Hubener is a great example of this in my book. Though he was excommunicated, I do not think it was recognized by Heaven.

That, again, does not excuse us doing whatever we want, when ever we want. If that is a possible action to be taken against us, we had better be darn sure that we are on the Lords side, and not trying to justify our pride.

Remove our pride, fear God more than man, be close to the Spirit, learn about the times when Prophets rightfully obeyed bad laws and the times when they rightfully disobeyed, use good judgement and we should be pretty safe.

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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by BroJones »

Mark wrote: Do our church leaders tell us to defy civil authority when we don't happen to agree or not?

I would be happy to have you show me where our current leadership has said it is alright to just defy civil authority on issues related to govt and law when you don't agree. I am hearing just the opposite from the Brethren so show me where I am going wrong here.
Hear, then, the words of the Latter-day Prophets!

John Taylor said:
“It is said in the D & C, that he that keepeth the laws of God, hath no need to break the laws of the land. It is further explained in section 98:4-7, what is meant in relation to this. That all laws which are constitutional must be obeyed. … But if they are violative of the constitution, then the compact between the rulers and the ruled is broken and the obligation ceases to be binding.
Brigham Young said:
“I do not lift my voice against the … Government …, but against those corrupt administrators who trample the Constitution and just laws under their feet.”


Joseph F. Smith said:
“… The Lord Almighty requires this people to observe the laws of the land, … so far as they abide by the fundamental principles of good government, but He will hold them responsible if they will pass unconstitutional measures and frame unjust and proscriptive laws. … If lawmakers have a mind to violate their oath, … where is the law, human or divine, which binds me, as an individual to outwardly and openly proclaim my acceptance of their acts?
Ezra Taft Benson admonished us:
“Our nation will continue to degenerate unless we read and heed the words of the God of this land, Jesus Christ, and quit building up and upholding secret combinations, …”
So, Mark, what do you think? Can you find any of the "current" Brethren, as you say, which have contradicted any of the above? Examples, please...

Furthermore, your linking Chuck Baldwin's essay with suggestions of income tax evasion is totally unsupported, not substantiated and unfair -- shameful, unless you can justify such a linkage.
Last edited by BroJones on December 18th, 2010, 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Original_Intent »

Thanks Dr. Jones for a GREAT post. (also thanks for the DVD!)

We went thru all this in the other locked thread (Mark was not a participant there) but the same quotes were shown, the request to present current leaders contradicting those quotes, and it never happened, and yet those who take the "we must obey government ALWAYS, unless directly told not to by the current prophet" - they continued to defend their position after being, in my opinion, conclusively shown to be incorrect. In other words, winning the argument was more important than seeking the truth.

Hopefully it doesn't just devolve into another round of circular logic, name calling, and ignoring any inconvenient facts, and blanket statements of "all trumped by current prophet's utterances!" even when such utterances could not be produced.

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AussieOi
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by AussieOi »

Mark wrote:Instead of mocking my thoughts Mahonri and OI why not just tell me where I am going wrong here. Do our church leaders tell us to defy civil authority when we don't happen to agree or not?

I would be happy to have you show me where our current leadership has said it is alright to just defy civil authority on issues related to govt and law when you don't agree. I am hearing just the opposite from the Brethren so show me where I am going wrong here.

I noted the issue on taxes which are totally immoral and unjust to a lot of people including our friend CHH. It is common knowledge that the church will reprimand you if you are punish criminally by defying the IRS. Just show me the words of the current prophets that back up your assertions.

Mark what cranks me up about this is that you have seen the quotes 50 times before and yet you still ask for it.
you are in denial as bad as ChelC re 9/11, but at least she's just afriad to confront a new paradign so has chosen to remain an agnostic on it.
my observation is that you- on the other hand - are a figurative militant athiest in regards to demanding proof of the obvious.

You have read the messages. You KNOW what they have said about this.

If I were paranoid I would say you work for the new world order and your job is to convince everyone here not to do anything to oppose it.

but i know you enough to know you are just a tragic old man who needs to be compelled in all thing and is rusted onto this Jeff Nysuist china. babylon thing- thus you have excused the Republicans because they werent malicious rather they were drunk.
cos they can't be bad cos the Democrats are the bad guys, - in my opinion.

so you ask for proof. yet we've given it to you a hundred times

and the proof is Ether 8. and that nothing has changed

why do you sak for us to prove where we are legitimised by a group of men to defy civil authority? this has nothing to do with defying anything
nor not being subjected to their instructions

this is about your god given (as you americans always remind me) constitutional rights

why do we need to show you that a church member has said we are permitted to defy authority when a government person tells us to do something we have no obligation to do.

i dont have to defy their instruction. THEY have to show how they are constitutionally justified to make me do what i am "defying".

when were you so completely and utterly neutralised Mark? and why do you persist in acting as an agent of status quo? from my perspective you are actually telling people they have no rights to be free to enjoy their rights, and they have no rights to stand against injustice and tyranny....because the church hasn't provided them with pre-emptive immunity and justification

what a tragedy. what an utter utter tragedy
here i am in my country, wishing, wishing we had a constitution that protects us like yours DID. to be free in my self, my body, my possessions, my place.

how, as a LDS who knows better, how do you come on and tell people they need a religious person to permit them to stand against injustice and oppression?

to me that is so fundamentally antithetical to what your country was, and our freedoms are meant to be


someone put him out of his misery and paste the other 6 quotes now please....not that CHH didn't post them here a hundred times before

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AussieOi
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by AussieOi »

Mark wrote:
If I choose to disobey them I am prosecuted and in some cases thrown in jail. Then I lose my temple privileges and possibly even face disfellowshipment and loss of Priesthood blessings.

Now that confuses me if in fact what you are saying is true. If the Lord does not expect me to be subject to unconstitutional laws then why do I lose my membership opportunities and blessings if I go crosshairs against civil authority by bucking those laws and ordinances not constitutionally sound?

We in America have adopted many of the planks to the communist manifesto that are not constitutionally sound. Graduated income tax is but one of those planks. Yet I am forced to obey these tax laws or suffer church discipline because of it. It doesn't add up to me.
being sincere here Mark, its a real dilemma isn't it
its tough watching Elder Oaks become a consitutional tax lawyer isn't it
no less tough seeing your president of the church standing and patting Dick Cheney on the back and awarding him honorary doctorates for services to humanity, or say his personal alliegances say the Iraq war is a good thing to stop terrorists and WMDs and so on
but keep it simple, we are only required to obey laws that are constitutional


hers some words from CHH in 2007 from http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... eutralizer



The church violated the Supreme Court rulings for years on polygamy.

The questions about the Constitutionality of collections of tax by the IRS was ruled to be allowable in 2007 in the Hein ruling. The question of whether or not the 16th was ever passed has never been ruled upon. There is no law that requires most American to file that is clear and Unequivocal and in ONE SINGLE statue.

There is curently no definition of the word dollar and until there is you cannot know how much income you have even if you knew what income is which has never been defined in the IRC.

We are not in a Democracy. In a Democracy the people's votes count. Ours do not due to election fraud. We are under a Tyranny and have a duty, according to the law of the Declaration of Independence to rebel and overthrow such a governemnt and establish a better one.

The question is: Will you follow the law or will you support Tyrants?

I will support and defend the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence against all enemies both foreign and domestic, even if they claim to be elected. it is may duty and I swore an oath to do my duty to God and my country.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

So which law will you follow? Will you do your duty or not? Do you have any evidence that it is our duty to uphold tyrants?

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. –Benjamin Franklin

Eat the fruit in the Garden or stay there. Both were commandments. Which one will you obey. The higher law or the lower law.

I am an eternal rebel against tyrants.

David 0. McKay said:
“Governments are the SERVANTS, not the MASTERS of the people. All who love the Constitution of the United States can vow with Thomas Jefferson, who, when president, said, ‘I have sworn upon the alter of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.’”

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AussieOi
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Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by AussieOi »

from here

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... eutralizer

The Church leaders have indeed told us to comply with the tax laws. I do. In fact here is what they wrote EXACTLY:

"Church members in any nation are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the tax laws of that nation. If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment, or if he has a well founded legal objection, he may challenge them in the courts.

"A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income axes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church."

Hummm A well founded legal objection and I can, according the prophet, challenge the alleged laws in court. To go to court you must first LOSE in an administrative hearing with the IRS. If not you have not exhausted your administrative remedies.

Since I have signed letters from the IRS saying I am not required to file I guess I won before I even had to go to court.

I am not required to file a tax return according to the IRS's own records and the law. I am not required income voluntary taxes and I have not failed to comply with a final judgment in a tax case since there never has been a tax case against me since I am not required to file. So have I violated the Prophets commandment? If I have you tell me how. While I know most of you have indeed violated President Grant's commandment to stay out of Social Security and to Eschew Socialism I have violated no law. If I have prove it.

So why are you not honoring and sustaining the law but instead assisting in the destruction of the Constitution we are duty bound to uphold?

But did you not know that you are EXEMPT but are to filled with fear to assert your rights and sustain the law and the Constitution. The Supreme Court gives you a "well founded legal objection" but none of you will take it because you would rather follow a voluntary law and pay the tax you do not owe than uphold the Constitution and your inalienable rights.

“Keeping in mind the well-settled rule that the citizen is EXEMPT from taxation unless the same is imposed by clear and unequivocal language, and that where the construction of a tax law is doubtful, the doubt is to be resolved in favor of those upon whom the tax is sought to be laid…” (Emphasis added) Spreckels Sugar Refining Co. v. McClain, 192 U.S. 397, 24 S.Ct. 376, 418, U.S. 1904

Got that. "Exempt from taxation!"

So what law requires me to file a return? The IRS has informed me in writing that I am not required to file. So what law requires YOU to file.

Rosabella
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Posts: 1186

Re: Bible Heroes Noted for Defying Civil Authority

Post by Rosabella »

Those that feel what CHH teaches is the correct principles should know that he created his own Church. He even offers duel membership with other Churches.
http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/

http://www.patriotsaints.com/Branches/N ... Hansen.htm

Chris says he is freinds with Sterling Allen. Sterling Allen is the webmaster for http://www.patriotsaints.com and Sterling is an excommunicated member of the LDS Church. I do not know if Chris is still a member or not but starting your own Church does not typically allow you to continue to be LDS.

There are plenty of apostates that we can follow if we like. I choose not to myself.

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